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Umm.. yea.. laminates.. sort of. But over a solid wood, hand carved Heritage Golden Eagle? Do you want the guitar to be rich with interesting sounds or do you want to hear more pickup/amplifier? In your price range (trust me.. you won't miss that Firebird) you can find a used one on the for sale list here or more likely, in the for sale section on the Heritage Owners website.
Last edited by Spook410; 02-18-2014 at 07:48 PM.
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02-18-2014 07:41 PM
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I was in a similar situation a few years ago. Like you I did not (still don't) have the money to afford the guitar of my dreams - an L-5. (I probably will never be able to afford one, especially with a mortgage and three kids.) A solution to my problem came from a local luthier, who said, "find a guitar that is similar in look, size and feel to your dream guitar and I'll help you bring it closer to the tone your seek". (Notice: he said "closer".) So that's what I did - I played a ton of guitars within my budget and some over my budget, but in the end I "settled" for an Epiphone Broadway that cost $599. My friend, the luthier, then switched out the neck position pick-up and replaced it with a Gibson PAF - the same one they use in an L-5 - and upgraded all the pots and set it up with flat-wound 13s with a bone nut. The pick-up from Musicians Friend was on sale at the time for $99.00 and I paid $165 for the install and the complete setup with stings. This made a HUGE difference in the sound of the guitar. I had a budget of $1k and my guitar was $863 complete. Being under budget also made my wife quite happy (that's priceless!) and I now have a guitar that is a true part of me.
Let me also add, that I am truly satisfied with my guitar on so many levels and doubt very much, even if I had the money, I'd switch to an L-5. My guitar serves me well for my local jazz gigs and the occasional pit orchestra calls at the local community theater. This guitar with those modifications was one of the best investments I ever made.
My best advice: is stick to your budget and find the best guitar for your needs and make it work for you. I am a firm believer that it's not the guitar that makes the player - for I am sure if "name your favorite guitar player here" played a $250 jazz box they still would sound incredible.
That's just my 2 cents. Good luck and happy hunting!
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Pickup/Amplifier/Laminates, LOL...You can get beautiful rich sounds with the spruce laminate guitars. Nobody would know upon listening to the GB200 or the x-500 that it's a laminate guitar. I saw benson live during the body talk era playing an X-500 and he played a tribute to Wes and it was indistinguishable from an L5 tone IMO.
Even the GB10 can get a stylized GB10 tone through the amp.
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I second the Guild X-500 recommendation. I used to own one, but now own two L5's.
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I've owned the x500, many GEs and the 2460 featuring Super 70 humbuckers. Your experience didn't match mine. An x500 is no L5 tone. The 2460 is far closer. I've seen 2460's for $1k. That's more than reasonable. Search the 2460 in the archives. I'd buy one long before an x500. Again, based upon personal experience. Your experience was not mine. That's normal
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 02-19-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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Don't know which X500 you had so I can't comment but I've owned several X500s and I've played a bunch of the lawsuit guitars. They're ok but it's pretty common knowledge that Ibanez really didn't take archtops seriously until about '78 when the stopped with the lawsuit guitars and hired some serious luthiers who know how to make archtops and that was when the started making the GB10. So I disagree that the 2460 is much closer. It's a cheap copy.
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Here's the man himself, george benson on an X-500.
I REST MY CASE.
And check out what he says about the X-500 in this interview. http://www.guitarplayer.com/artists/...-stories/13021Last edited by jzucker; 02-19-2014 at 12:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Sure.. if the amp and venue are loud enough you couldn't tell a ES175 from an X500 from an L5 from a Golden Eagle. However, playing at low volumes in a small space you hear the guitar, your amp, and the space. This is where most of us spend most of our time and where the guitar makes a difference.
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Great advice, I appreciate it. I've been watching a lot of youtube videos and i've found that every clip that I like have one thing in common, an AER Compact 60 (Bingo) amplifier. Whichever guitar I choose, i'm going to have to have that amp.
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and as someone who has spent hours a day practicing for 40+ years, I definitely "get" the guitar sounding good when you're sitting alone in the practice room and the X-500, GB-200 both sound great at super quiet levels.
Of course an L5 or Heritage eagle sound better acoustically but when you plug into an amp, all of them sound great.
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"Buy an Ibanez model 2460...a knock-off "lawsuit" style archtop...they come up on feebay occasionaly. Also the Aria Pro 1000C, the Greco Johnny Smith, the Aria Pro II PE180, the Epi Emperor early 80's vintage"
+1 2B, those are all good guitars and made well, don't let anyone tell you differently.
I gig w/ an old Gibson L-5, but on my regular Fri. night gig I still use my Aria Pro II PE180 as I don't mind if it gets bumped around a little.
I've had a few 2460's and they're very well made and sound very good, I just prefer longer scale guitars.
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This one: Ibanez SJ-500 VLS
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-19-2014 at 02:40 PM.
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Benson playing "Billie's Bounce" always improves my mood. Benson said in a 2010 interview in "Vintage Guitar" that most of his CTI recordings were done on an X-500. He mentioned that "Bad Benson" and couple of others were done on a D'A New Yorker.
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Jack, your case rested on GB playing an X500, rather than the famed photo of GB playing his Ibanez 2460!? You, a long time Benson fan, didn't know GB recorded an album featuring a photo of his lawsuit Ibanez 2460 on the cover? What's up with that?
GB can get just about any tone he wants from any guitar. The X500 I owned, a 1995 model, wasn't even in the ballpark of an L5.
Hmmm, the fact the name M. Sugihara doesn't ring a bell can only suggest you're not aware of how highly regarded Sugihara's pre '78 guitars are...But to each their own....and speaking of owning...there's a big difference in ones perspective towards a guitar having owned that guitar, rather than simply playing one once, imho.
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Wasn't Sugihara-san the luthier who made the higher-end hand-crafted D'Angelico branded archtops for Vestax?
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Which Benson album had an Ibanez 2460 on the cover?
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One and the same. Sugihara is a legend in Japanese archtop building. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I've been searching the archives...someone posted an actual photo of the cover a few years back. Apparently GB must have seen some merit in the 2460. Originally Posted by Blues Fuse
Read forumite Hot Ford Coupe's comment about his Ibanez lawsuit:
"I had a law suit (I think) L5 CES. I traded it in for a real L5CES. No difference in sound. It was a huge disappointment. I should have kept the Ibanez and saved a chunk of cash"
Personally, I believe the 2460's Super 70 humbuckers were the real deal. I regret selling mine. But when you're new to archops you don't know how something truly is until you've sampled countless others, and have the benefit of looking back and realizing...damn, if I'd only knew then what I know now!
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 02-19-2014 at 04:43 PM.
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My case rested on george benson stating he used the X-500 for that recording. Case dismissed. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Now that is hilarious.
Jack, your case rested on GB playing an X500, rather than the famed photo of GB playing his Ibanez 2460!? You, a long time Benson fan, didn't know GB recorded an album featuring a photo of his lawsuit Ibanez 2460 on the cover? What's up with that?
Do you know Henry Johnson? He's a good friend of George's. Henry will corroborate that george used the X-500 for many of the classic recordings and he certainly used it live at the cellar door in DC when I heard him with Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams and Ron Carter.
I've heard recordings of him playing that Ibanez you reference and it sounds good. Happy?
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"So I disagree that the 2460 is much closer. It's a cheap copy"
"I've heard recordings of him playing that Ibanez you reference and it sounds good. Happy?"
so it's a cheap copy that sounds good? um, 'k
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No self respecting Heritage archtop owner doesn't know Henry Johnson. I hear he's a very humble and nice guy to boot. Killer player! Originally Posted by jzucker
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I don't have much experience with L5s but I love my X-500... although it needed a lot of work (1965 model). After all that work is the best archtop I have ever played (excluding a Buscarino that costed 10K).
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And as you were later backed into a corner to acknowledge, "some of the best jazz tones of bensons career were also done on a lawsuit L5", in spite of your stated lack of preference for a guitar you've never owned. That was the only issue I've taken. Personally, I'd never speak for or against any guitar I've not personally owned. Originally Posted by jzucker
Well, let's see...Joe Vinico of archtop.com said of the Ibanez 2460: "with it's big box tone, classic design and handsome deeply ambered blonde finish, this guitar is an unbeatable value in a true pro guitar, and an ideal choice for a great working instrument." Originally Posted by jzucker
http://www.archtop.com/ac_75IbanezL5CES_.html
So Jack, you're now suggesting Joe V. is simply 'full of it', and merely trying to upsell an archtop? Hmmm, seems to me that a dealer whose sold more archtops worldwide than one can shake a stick at wouldn't dare risk his reputation on a lowly lawsuit L5.
Or, with the number of videos Rich sells, I'd bet the least of his concerns is forum scuttle-butt over a lawsuit L5 that's long sold!
This entire thread went SOUTH soon after you chose to poo-poo a guitar you've never owned, and yet you spoke with such head scratching authority against same. Had your comments been posted on the Ibanez Collectors forum, many folks/owners would have eaten your lunch. I'm happy we're more civilized here !
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 02-20-2014 at 03:09 PM.
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GB, the man himself, playing a post lawsuit Ibanez JS...who'd have thought it.
Although GB is playing a post lawsuit Ibanez archtop it's my understanding that the post lawsuit L5's were still produced by the same master luthier, M. Sugihara, who produced the originals.
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2b. the only differences in the lawsuit models and post lawsuit models is the top of the headstock Gibson moustache was changed and the peghead inlay from the Gibson 'torch' Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Getting somewhat back to the original topic. I've owned a 70s Aria L5 copy. I don't know if it was the same as the lawsuit guitars. I do think it was a really nice guitar for what it was. From a few feet away it was indistinguishable from the real thing except for an uglier headstock. That being said, it did not sound at all like the L5 I now own. To the OP, I really think the best thing to do is get to a store that has a decent selection of eastmans, peerless, etc. and just try as many guitars as you can. You may not get the exact L5 sound but who knows, maybe you'll find something "good enough" or even better. Just my 2 cents
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I have tried 2013 Gibson L5 Lee Ritenour ;comparing 2014 Eastman AR805CE
-Sizing is similiar 15 1/2" VS 16"
- All Handcarved Solid Spruce & Maple
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