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Hey all, I'm wondering what a good approach is for learning how to play with a singer as a solo guitarist.
I really have no experience playing jazz with others. Most of the jazz stuff I've explored has been solo chord melody stuff. It seems like playing in a group, backing a singer, and playing solo chord melody are all different skill sets. And that backing a singer seems like a hybrid between the other two (maybe?)
Anyway, Im not asking how to become Joe Pass playing for Ella overnight -- I'm interested in what sorts of skills I should focus on to become a simple but effective backup for a singer.
My wife and I write music together (she's the singer) and we've been getting more interested jazz lately. She sent me a few songs off this album by Samara Joy featuring Pasquale Grasso as a guitar sound that she really liked. I also like his style very much, and although quite a bit of what he's playing sounds sparse, it doesn't sound simple.
Sorry for the very open-ended question, but any advice is appreciated!
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06-14-2024 10:13 AM
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This is like someone saying they want to learn the blues and starting off with Joe Satriani.
Pasquale Grasso is one of the most technically proficient players out there.
What I would say, since you said you already do chord melody, it to play what you do, but WAAAAY less of it. The singer should be the focus. Sparse accompaniment with a stable tempo will go a long way.
As always, post a clip and you'll get the most useful feedback, instead of speculation.
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Singers gonna sing—I mean they’re gonna do what they want, so you have to play around them.
Give them space to sing, but be supportive and listen to them. I don’t think you can play with a singer without putting your ears first, fingers second.
My impression is that regardless of how well or how much you play, how great your solos, etc., the audience is going to really respond to the singer. If they like that, you’re golden.
I saw Tuck and Patti last year and was extremely impressed with how well they interacted—a telepathic level of communication. Of course that comes with performing together for 45 or so years, but still!
(Jacqueline Monique and I did this song together recently. Beautiful singer’s song. I don’t think I did it as much justice as Tuck, but J knocked it out of the park with her vocals. My second favorite singer after Patti.)
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Play bass and comp thru the changes. You can get away with just having whatever top note, but you should work towards being able to improvise a lil chordal melody on top.
19:45
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Wow, what a lovely version of that song. I am not familiar with that singer, but will definitely listen to her more.
Originally Posted by briandavidyork
Lots of great examples of accompaniment there from Pasquale, and what a beautiful guitar tone which perfectly complements but doesn’t compete with her voice.
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Around 2007 I received a call from a DJ friend of mine that had a Jazz Morning show on the local University radio station. He explained there was a vocal teacher at the Uni that was looking for a accompanist. We met and we set the bar at Joe and Ella's duet material. I was fortunate that in the late 80's I had been on staff at Group IV Recording in Hollywood and witnessed Joe and Ella in the studio.
I had been playing solo around town doing Joe type chord melody (not as well of course!) so I thought it would be a snap. First thing, you will probably be transposing quite a bit. You are perhaps fortunate that your wife is the singer, so you have lots of opportunities to find comfortable keys for her. In my case, the Singer would call out a tune and expect me to play it in the key he could sing it in-and unfortunately he didn't have a clue what key that was. I learned pretty quickly it was usually a full step down from what was written. I had a nickname for him- The Gloomy Diva. He kept me working at several upscale venues around town for about a year and a half.
Study the Joe and Ella songbook. He really did pull back during her vocals and basically approached her vocal like backing a horn. It's all about the Singer and the poetry of the lyrics. Don't overload with Ballads, although it's tempting to do..
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Do you also play/sing it together already? Asking because I have a hard time imagining that accompanying a singer in jazz is fundamentally different from accompanying a singer in almost any other style. Or a priori any another solo instrument which takes over the role of the singer. Support and complement in anyway tasteful (or necessary Originally Posted by briandavidyork
) without distracting.
As to the singer being your wife and the "necessary support" aspect (keeping in time or in tune) ... only you can find out to what extent it can be part of your role
This does raise an interesting side question: is accompanying a singer in jazz more like accompanying a singer in the late 18th/early 19th century repertoire for this combination, or more like how singer-songwriters accompany themselves? (Intuitively I'd say there's no need for any fundamental differences other than the latter probably keeping things simpler for obvious reasons.)
(Edit: my reference in singer-songwriters are people like Darrell Scott or Tim O'Brien and 1 or 2 others who just seem to be bashing at their guitars like a prop )
Last edited by RJVB; 06-14-2024 at 05:01 PM.
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For the most part, you want to avoid voicings that share the same top note (unless you're setting up an entry point for the singer). Check out Julie London with Barney Kessel. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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I think that accompanying one's spouse would make the process of synching up easier than the usual I-was-asked-to-back-a-stranger scenario. (Assuming an otherwise healthy and comfortable relationship, anyway.) That way you'll know her keys and tempos, her style, her take on a tune, and so on.
As far as what a guitarist does, my first thought is, "Not as much as you might think." What the two of you are doing is devising arrangements, with her vocal as the backbone. So together you figure out intros and tags and solos (if any), and your guitar lays down the harmonic structure but does not mimic her singing. Which is pretty much what I do as part of a rhythm section in a combo. And as someone familiar with chord-melody, most of the moves are already in your fingers, but without the melody part.
I guess one could do worse than to follow PMB's advice about Julie London and Barney Kessel. Or the (perhaps now obscure) Johnny Mathis album, "Open Fire, Two Guitars."
Disclosure: I'm not a jazz player, but I spent a couple decades backing singers in duo or trio settings--and some of the material was standards, so I wasn't very far from the target area here.
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Same here, so I'd add that, if the OP and his wife are not already used to playing&singing together in other styles, it won't hurt to to watch some videos of other kinds of guitar + voice repertoire. Videos can be more useful than recordings here as they can show the silent interactions (or lack thereof). In that case it probably won't hurt either to work on some more familiar repertoire first, to build some understanding and reflexes before attacking the apparently less familiar jazz. Originally Posted by RLetson
FWIW, I did some youscouting of suitable example videos of 19th-C repertoire and was a bit surprised to see how sufficient (if subtle) the small guitars of the time can be to accompany even quite powerful singers, e.g.
There's a full concert video of slightly later and more "swinging" repertoire ("Los orígenes del bolero | Marta Almajano") where the guitar seems to be amplified and a bit too loud IMHO. The trick will be to find the right balance where the singer can hear you without feeling a need to fight you, you can hear yourself and a hypothetical audience will hear a coherent whole that's a bit more than just the sum of the 2 parts.
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Know all the chords to a given song in all areas of the fretboard, get comfotable with the changes, voiceleading etc. Start simple ("vanilla") first (especially when practicing), elaborate, embellish, get gradually more complex later (or as you get better at comping). Rhythm and feel are also important. Again, start simple, Pasquale Grasso is perfect though very, very advanced.
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No, you can’t. PMB’s advice to avoid voicings in which the highest note is also being sung by the vocalist is generally sound counsel. Playing the same note that’s being sung can divert from the continuity of the singer’s expression if you’re more than barely audible. But even worse is the effect of even the tiniest pitch discrepancy between the two of you. If you’re even a few Hz apart, it makes the vocalist sound off. And if the singer has vibrato going, a sustained unison note from the guitar will ruin the purity of the sung note. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
There are exceptions, but it takes great skill, exquisite taste, perfect control over voice and guitar, and a whole lot of experience to make it work well. Barney Kessel with Julie London, Tony Mottola with Frank Sinatra, and Mundell Lowe with Sammy Davis Jr come to mind as examples of greatness in this genre (examples at the end of this post).
But even more fundamental is to avoid exotic extensions and tight harmonies unless you and the singer have rehearsed them and you both know exactly what you will play. Even when you both know exactly what you’ll play and sing, it will most often sound better and make the vocalist sound better) if you use an inversion that keeps the unison note an octave or more lower on the guitar.
Examples abound, but the classic clam is when the guitar (or piano) tries to lead into the tonic with a 7b9 or an 7aug5 but the vocalist sings the 2 or the 6 resolving into the 1. It sounds terrible and often throws the vocalist off.
Here are 2 wonderful examples of the best of the art of solo accompaniment -
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She’s been the hot new thing for a bit. Really amazing singer and Pasquale is on both her albums. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Probably takes a Pasquale Grasso to comp for her in an interesting way because she’s got Sarah Vaughn kind of chops. Massive massive massive range, in particular in that low register Sarah Vaughn had.
You’re in for a nice couple days whenever you start spinning those albums.
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I never really paid attention to this in jazz singers in particular but in general good singers will sing just (there's a physical, feeling-good aspect to that, something I've discovered myself after a singer described it to me). Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
On a guitar even the octaves are often only approximately just...
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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The magic word is “good”. Many singers unconsciously use vibrato to encompass the correct note because they can’t hear and/or sing perfectly true to pitch. Nancy Wilson (one of my all time favorite singers) had such great control that she could sustain a pure note on pitch forever without the slightest waver. Vibrato was just another expressive tool for her, but for singers with less than excellent pitch control it’s an effective way to skirt the exact note when you can’t sustain it without pitch variance. And a sustained note with vibrato can sound foul along with with a steady unison note, because the pitch mismatch is cyclic and prominent. Originally Posted by RJVB
You’re right, of course, that we don’t play perfectly in tune either. But discrepancies are much more audible when the notes in question are only a few Hz apart than when they’re 2 octaves plus a few Hz apart. And when you play the same note the vocalist is singing, you can throw off his or her phrasing and muddle expressive subtleties.
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Tasteful what he does there, but what an utterly uninteresting, extremely muffled sound... That singer could easily copy with a "bit" more present accompaniment! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If that's an immature Samara Joy I'm rather happy for her with the way she matured! Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Maybe "good" is an understatement even... There are enough opera singers who use a "wild" vibrato for the exact same reason (or so one might conclude...), or even "ease into" every note from below... (The latter being even more something you can't unhear once you've started noticing it.) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
FWIW, I wasn't disagreeing with you in any way, just pointing out a fundamental reason why it's a good idea to avoid playing unison with a singer.You’re right, of course, that we don’t play perfectly in tune either.
That being said, I suppose most jazz singers also practise with a piano and end up singing in equal temperament.
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Tim Lerch demonstrates--and names--the techniques I aspire to in backing a singer. Very specific. I think it's not irrelevant that (despite his limited pipes) he really knows his way around a song. I note especially how much attention he pays to phrasing on both vocal and accompaniment, which is partly musical and partly attending to the words, which in the Great American Songbook are as important to the structural feel as whatever the notation says about where the notes go.
Not that it would work for everybody, but a lot of what's going on in my head when I'm the only accompanist to a singer is imagining what a conventional rhythm section would be doing, especially the bass and drums (and the piano mostly laying out). And FWIW, I'm hearing brushes against the bass, very minimalist. (Then there's the original Peggy Lee recording of "Fever"--notice where the drummer adds his little fills.)
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Thanks for advice everyone!
We do currently play music together, but it's almost all in the realm of folk/Americana, which means I'm playing a few strumming / finger picking patterns that stay pretty consistent throughout the song. As opposed to that video I posted, where Pasquale is constantly changing up the guitar work - strumming, arpeggios, double stops, fast runs, counter melodies on top of the chords, etc.
Being able to improvise is basically not even on my radar yet. Even when I do solo chord melody (which I'm not particularly good at) I tend to write arrangements and memorize them with almost no variation. Almost none of my musical background was improvisatory, so that's an area where I really struggle.
Good to know about not doubling the singer's note on the top of the chord!
I'll check out all the videos everyone posted.
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The mantra is "keep it simple". Especially as you have a background devoid of this kind of playing experience, learn the tunes well and stick to the simple named chords and basic rhythm patterns until you get some miles on the odometer. It's also critical to maintain a steady pace - you can't speed up or drag it down once you set the tempo. Originally Posted by briandavidyork
The focus is on the song and the singer - you're there to support her and let her sound as good as she can. That's the essential message in this - it's not about you.
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[QUOTE=briandavidyork;1342246]Hey all, I'm wondering what a good approach is for learning how to play with a singer as a solo guitarist.
I really have no experience playing jazz with others. Most of the jazz stuff I've explored has been solo chord melody stuff. It seems like playing in a group, backing a singer, and playing solo chord melody are all different skill sets. And that backing a singer seems like a hybrid between the other two (maybe?)
Anyway, Im not asking how to become Joe Pass playing for Ella overnight -- I'm interested in what sorts of skills I should focus on to become a simple but effective backup for a singer.
My wife and I write music together (she's the singer) and we've been getting more interested jazz lately. She sent me a few songs off this album by Samara Joy featuring Pasquale Grasso as a guitar sound that she really liked. I also like his style very much, and although quite a bit of what he's playing sounds sparse, it doesn't sound simple.
Sorry for the very open-ended question, but any advice is appreciated
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