Learning to play with a singer

[bloos66]

I might have mentioned this before - here is a really good Truefire course - 10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment - Martin Taylor - Guitar Lessons - TrueFire
10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment Jazz Guitar Comping for Vocalists

The art of comping for a vocalist requires a significantly different approach than comping with a soloist. Supporting a soloist requires more complex play and adapting to improvisations with varied chords and rhythms. Comping for a vocalist calls for a more elegant approach that underscores the melody without overshadowing the vocal performance.

Fingerstyle jazz legend Martin Taylor has collaborated with hundreds of world-class musicians in virtually every setting, from duos and trios to ensembles and big bands. Drawing on years of experience, Martin and special guest Alison Burns guide you through a highly enlightening, interactive masterclass, 10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment.

Truefire have a 14day trial which includes all access... no affiliation with TF. Martin Taylor is simply outstanding....

[Bobby Timmons]

No, you can’t.

You sure about all that? :P

[orri]

No, you can’t. PMB’s advice to avoid voicings in which the highest note is also being sung by the vocalist is generally sound counsel. Playing the same note that’s being sung can divert from the continuity of the singer’s expression if you’re more than barely audible. But even worse is the effect of even the tiniest pitch discrepancy between the two of you. If you’re even a few Hz apart, it makes the vocalist sound off. And if the singer has vibrato going, a sustained unison note from the guitar will ruin the purity of the sung note.

I also felt I wanted to protest this statement about being to use whichever top note as soon as I saw it.


However I feel it can be sometimes helpful for the singer if you play the melody note(s), to guide them.

I agree that if you're comping a good singer, they are often better in tune than the compromised tuning of a guitar, and even if they are a tad off, there is no reason to highlight it during a performance in front of other people. So staying off their note(s) is a great rule of thumb.

But if you're comping a less experienced singer, who's struggling with intonation, playing their note will definitely highlight that they're off, but it will also make it more obvious to the singer themself so they'll realise they're off of can correct.
So IMHO you might want to hightlight if they ar off pitch in the practise room just to learn and improve. Even during a performance they might feel safer if they get a bit of guidance in a few spots they struggle with.

So to summarize, you can change your comping approach to better support less experienced singers, but more experienced singers don't need or want that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You sure about all that?

As I said in the post at which you took umbrage:

There are exceptions, but it takes great skill, exquisite taste, perfect control over voice and guitar, and a whole lot of experience to make it work well. Barney Kessel with Julie London, Tony Mottola with Frank Sinatra, and Mundell Lowe with Sammy Davis Jr come to mind as examples of greatness in this genre (examples at the end of this post).

I think Monk, Milt Jackson and Pancho Hagood qualify as having great skill, exquisite taste, perfect control over their instruments, and a whole lot of experience. If you’re in that camp too, more power to you. But most of us (including me) fall a bit short of that standard.

You also can’t compare solo guitar with piano and vibes together. When you’re the only accompaniment, you don’t blend into a lush chordal background. Every note you play is fully and clearly audible to both the singer and the audience. You’re on the high wire without a net.

[briandavidyork]

I might have mentioned this before - here is a really good Truefire course - 10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment - Martin Taylor - Guitar Lessons - TrueFire
10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment Jazz Guitar Comping for Vocalists

The art of comping for a vocalist requires a significantly different approach than comping with a soloist. Supporting a soloist requires more complex play and adapting to improvisations with varied chords and rhythms. Comping for a vocalist calls for a more elegant approach that underscores the melody without overshadowing the vocal performance.

Fingerstyle jazz legend Martin Taylor has collaborated with hundreds of world-class musicians in virtually every setting, from duos and trios to ensembles and big bands. Drawing on years of experience, Martin and special guest Alison Burns guide you through a highly enlightening, interactive masterclass, 10 Principles of Jazz Accompaniment.

Truefire have a 14day trial which includes all access... no affiliation with TF. Martin Taylor is simply outstanding....

Hey, this looks awesome! Thanks for posting. I've never looked at Truefire before.

[Bobby Timmons]

nevershouldhavesoldit, I agree with your writeup about being tactful when accompanying a singer. And I saw that I overlooked that you wrote that great players can be exceptions. I disagree that it's as sensitive an issue as you describe it. My understanding of it is the singer just has to be skilled enough to keep time and find their notes from your accompaniment. So if your backing is fundamentally sound including the time and harmony being solid, you can do whatever you want. If you're trying to be tactful for your singer, yes there are guidelines like how you described, but if the singer knows what they're doing, then you can be more liberal.

[garybaldy]

nevershouldhavesoldit, I agree with your writeup about being tactful when accompanying a singer. And I saw that I overlooked that you wrote that great players can be exceptions. I disagree that it's as sensitive an issue as you describe it. My understanding of it is the singer just has to be skilled enough to keep time and find their notes from your accompaniment. So if your backing is fundamentally sound including the time and harmony being solid, you can do whatever you want. If you're trying to be tactful for your singer, yes there are guidelines like how you described, but if the singer knows what they're doing, then you can be more liberal.

Oscar is over playing during the vocal. He eases off a bit during the sax solo. Perhaps he and Nat had a squabble earlier!!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

nevershouldhavesoldit, I agree with your writeup about being tactful when accompanying a singer. And I saw that I overlooked that you wrote that great players can be exceptions. I disagree that it's as sensitive an issue as you describe it.

This is great! I'll start referring the vocalists for whom I play to you for an explanation of why what they want from an accompanist is wrong. The silly fools are just soooo sensitive.....

I suspect from your posts that you haven't been the sole accompanist for very many vocalists. I don't think I've ever seen a post from you as a guitarist. All you post is piano clips, which (as others have said before) seems more than a bit strange to a lot of us, not to mention a bit out of place on a jazz guitar forum. Further, you're trying to sound like an expert on something you don't even do. The sound of a C at the 10th fret on the E1 is much closer to the sound of a vocalist who is singing the same note than is the sound of the same note on a piano. So a guitarist can interfere with the singer's articulation and expression more easily than a piano by playing it in unison with him or her. If a guitarist plays a C7b9 in the same register when the vocalist is singing that C, the half tone difference is a problem for many vocalists.

Even some of the best singers are easily thrown by a single minor clam. I backed a male singer last Saturday night who wanted sustained chords behind him rather than any style of traditional comping. He grimaced at any extensions beyond an occasional 7th (or - horrors! - a ninth). The guy was really good, but he was easily thrown off by any deviation from what he wanted. It was a challenge and not as much fun as playing for an adventurous singer with the confidence to pick up on any idea and make it work well, even in the middle of a tune. But I was getting paid to do what he wanted, so I did it. I rehearsed with him for 90 minutes that afternoon because I knew it would be a challenging gig from the first communication I got from him. Yes, I was paid well for the job - but that doesn't change the relationship between singer and accompanist.

You're out of your league here and might do well to stick to what you know.

[EDIT] After reading this, I realize that I could and should be more civil in my criticism. You clearly love jazz and want to be part of our community, which is great. I neither understand nor encourage your participation as a pianist because there are similar forums for piano (and I personally find piano clips to be out of place here).

You seem not to have much experience as a working guitarist, and you don’t see a lot of things the way guitarists do. But you often seem at odds with us over issues (like this one) that require more than a little knowledge, skill, and experience.

I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me on anything, as long as he or she has the fund of knowledge to back up opinions. But you seem to be choosing your opinions from your imagination and extrapolating them based largely on what you’ve read and heard. I think your opinions might change a bit if you got some gigs and tried to put them into action.

[Bobby Timmons]

This is great! I'll start referring the vocalists for whom I play to you for an explanation of why what they want from an accompanist is wrong. The silly fools are just soooo sensitive.

Ok, good plan! Just kidding. No disagreement here that the best way to know how to back a musician is to actually ask them and collaborate.

I suspect from your posts that you haven't been the sole accompanist for very many vocalists.

I've been the sole accompanist for a few singers in the past, yes.

I don't think I've ever seen a post from you as a guitarist.

I focused on guitar from 2015 - 2021 but had to quit because it aggravated an old upright bass injury. I can't play guitar and bass anymore so I focus on piano.

All you post are piano clips, which (as others have said before) seems more than a bit strange to a lot of us, not to mention a bit out of place on a jazz guitar forum.

Why is it strange? The jazz piano forums around are barely viable, let alone thriving like this jazz forum. I still appreciate guitar, I'm able to understand what's going on with it and learn from it, and it's a similar type of melody/harmony instrument.

Further, you're trying to sound like an expert on something you don't even do.

Uhh play jazz? I do that. Accompany singers? I do that. No, I don't play guitar. I guess I'm not an expert at accompanying singers, I just discuss what I think is true based on my experience and knowledge.

The sound of a C at the 10th fret on the E1 is much closer to the sound of a vocalist who is singing the same note than is the sound of the same note on a piano. So a guitarist can interfere with the singer's articulation and expression more easily than a piano by playing it in unison with him or her. If a guitarist plays a C7b9 in the same register when the vocalist is singing that C, the half tone difference is a problem for many vocalists.

No disagreement here that plunking down minor 2nds next to the singer's note might not be the best idea.

Even some of the best singers are easily thrown by a single minor clam. I backed a male singer last Saturday night who wanted sustained chords behind him rather than any style of traditional comping. He grimaced at any extensions beyond an occasional 7th (or - horrors! - a ninth). The guy was really good, but he was easily thrown off by any deviation from what he wanted. It was a challenge and not as much fun as playing for an adventurous singer with the confidence to pick up on any idea and make it work well, even in the middle of a tune. But I was getting paid to do what he wanted, so I did it. I rehearsed with him for 90 minutes that afternoon because I knew it would be a challenging gig from the first communication I got from him. Yes, I was paid well for the job - but that doesn't change the relationship between singer and accompanist.

Yeah, that's best to just ask the singer how they like their accompaniment. I like to ask bassists how they like me to accompany their solo. I prefer to lay out so it showcases that it's a bass solo rather than the band playing quietly and the bass thudding around. But they all have their preferences like continued invigorated comping or just sustained chords.

You're out of your league here and might do well to stick to what you know.

I resent you trying to subjugate me if you view me as challenging your authority. That's pretty unnecessary, just discuss. I'm one of the few people you'll meet who doesn't take it personally if I'm proven wrong. I'll simply admit that the other person is right and then move on. I don't take it upon myself to defeat the other person regardless of what the truth is.

I neither understand nor encourage your participation as a pianist because there are similar forums for piano (and I personally find piano clips to be out of place here).

There aren't similar forums for jazz piano. That's also why 2b hangs out here.

You seem not to have much experience as a working guitarist, and you don’t see a lot of things the way guitarists do. But you often seem at odds with us over issues (like this one) that require more than a little knowledge, skill, and experience.

Sure, the thread is about solo guitar backing a singer, so I have no expertise in that. Although, I don't think I'm at odds with guitarists here in general, that doesn't make sense to me. It's a similar type of melody and harmony instrument. Besides, musicians should be able to understand music regardless of what instrument it's coming from.

[EDIT] After reading this, I realize that I could and should be more civil in my criticism. You clearly love jazz and want to be part of our community, which is great. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me on anything, as long as he or she has the fund of knowledge to back up opinions.

Well thanks.

But you seem to be choosing your opinions from your imagination and extrapolating them based largely on what you’ve read and heard.

I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining Monk and OP playing literally whatever they want behind the singer because the singer can keep time and find their notes. That's been my premise this whole time. Some singers are legit musicians who can execute their part correctly regardless of it being against an advanced backing. In this case you can be more liberal with your backing as long as it sounds good and is musically sound. If you're so pro you should encounter these singers who aren't going to get frazzled if you play the slightest thing rambunctious. :P Although, some singers need a little help with a more nurturing backing. So I've experienced to be true largely what you've explained in your write ups about the fine details of accompanying a singer in a nurturing way. Or, some singers just have their own preferences on how they like their backing so it's in everyone's best interest for you to follow that.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've recently started working with a singer, so I've been thinking about how to approach it. This particular singer has a degree in music, plays a few instruments and, most important, can sight sing accurately. Hand her a piece of music she's never seen or heard before and she can sing the melody wordlessly (I think the word "vocalese" is used for that). Haven't tried it yet with a lyric she's never seen before. This level of professionalism is unusual in my limited experience backing singers. I've known some that play some keyboard and can read a chart, but I don't think many could sight sing.

But, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

I sing a tiny bit. Usually it has been at jam sessions held in a bar with a small audience. I usually know the rhythm section (who are hired pros) but there are often horn players sitting in who are amateurs. Singing with the amateurs can be very unpleasant.

That's because they don't pay any attention to the way I'm trying to do the song (think novelty number). They can hear me going in and out of time, intentionally, and the pianist and bassist are with me, but they play it straight. Or, they figure they can play the tune by ear and do fills behind me -- with clams and not the way I'm doing the time. If I'm varying the melody, the last thing I want to hear is a horn play it straight and louder than the vocal.

So, even this tiny bit of singing taught me something. Stay the ^&*(# out of the singer's way.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Singing with the amateurs can be very unpleasant...That's because they don't pay any attention to the way I'm trying to do the song (think novelty number).

You've nailed the problem, but you have it backwards. When you accompany a singer (or other solo voice), it is not about you. Your only job is to follow and support the vocalist. There is no reason at all for you to expect a singer to "pay attention to the way [you're] trying to do the song" because the accompanist doesn't decide or dictate that. When you work with a singer who wants you to be an equal partner in the duo, you can decide together how to do your tunes. But especially when you've never performed together before, the vocalist is in the driver's seat. Learning how to follow and support a vocalist effectively is a true art and a challenge. When you reach equilibrium with him or her and a song flows like honey, it's one of the great pleasures in life.

I've been privileged to back a few singers with top professional skills such as you describe. My favorite has been at the top for years, e.g. Broadway and Cirque du Soleil. At a rehearsal, she once asked me to recommend a few blues tunes I thought would be good for her voice and style. I started with No Beginner At The Blues (one of my favorites for a soulful female singer). We were on a short break, and she went into the "green room" for a few minutes - I assumed she'd gone to the bathroom. She came out about 10 minutes later and said "Let's try that tune". I said "What tune??" She said "No Beginner At The Blues" - and she nailed it the first time after learning it from a YouTube video. It's a wonderful and humbling feeling to work with someone like that.

When we work together, she always asks me for my ideas about a tune, and we decide together how to do it. But trying to force your concept of a tune on another performer whlie playing it makes you all look and sound bad. If you hire the vocalist, you can expect him or her to do what you want. But if you do that regularly, don't expect many to want to work for you.

[RJVB]

You've nailed the problem, but you have it backwards.

If I may play devil's advocate: not entirely; note how he mentioned amateur singers in particular. But amateur or professional, a singer can get it wrong in his/her initial interpretation of novel repertoire. And an amateur singer who starts to work with a much more experience accompanist could do worse than taking hints. When they're offered with the delicacy required to treat the species, of course

[briandavidyork]

rpjazzguitar didn't have it backwards at all. He explicitly said he does some singing, and then described a situation where he was singing and amateur backup musicians didn't match the way he was singing, and then he ended his post by saying "Stay out of the singer's way". This is the exact same point that nevershouldhavesoldit was making.

[rpjazzguitar]

rpjazzguitar didn't have it backwards at all. He explicitly said he does some singing, and then described a situation where he was singing and amateur backup musicians didn't match the way he was singing, and then he ended his post by saying "Stay out of the singer's way". This is the exact same point that nevershouldhavesoldit was making.

Thank you. That's right.

The point is to let the singer determine what's going to happen.

Perhaps Nevershouldhavesoldit thought I was writing from the perspective of the guitarist?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If I may play devil's advocate: not entirely; note how he mentioned amateur singers in particular. But amateur or professional, a singer can get it wrong in his/her initial interpretation of novel repertoire. And an amateur singer who starts to work with a much more experience accompanist could do worse than taking hints. When they're offered with the delicacy required to treat the species, of course

Right you are - but not on the stand. Amateur or pro, informal jam or concert stage, no good can come from working against another player. I'm always amazed at players who play their own changes, accents, rhythm etc louder when they want someone else to use them instead of what is being played. No matter what the nature of the disagreement, the music will sound worse when one player bucks what others are playing and singing. Worse, the audience only knows that something's not right. They're not thinking, "Boy that guitar player's great - I wish the others would play what he's playing". They're thinking "What a mess!"

The best possible outcome when you're playing with others who want to do something other than what you want is to hear what they're doing and play along with it. If you don't like what they want to do, discuss it before or after the performance - but not during it.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thank you. That's right.

The point is to let the singer determine what's going to happen.

Perhaps Nevershouldhavesoldit thought I was writing from the perspective of the guitarist?

I was thinking of you as a guitarist, but my advice is good either way. Don't fight it out in the middle of a performance. If you're singing and the band isn't picking up on your cues, your performance will sound better if you back off and go plain vanilla than if you push your "agenda" while they're playing something else. A good performance of a mediocre arrangement will sound and be received much better than a singer doing cool stuff over a band that's not supporting it. If you're up there at the mic looking upset and obviously trying to change what the band's playing, you're not being professional. If the band's playing that badly, end the tune. If they're playing OK but it's just not what you want, ride the bull until the buzzer sounds.

The accompanist or backing band is there to support the singer - no question about it. But the sword cuts both ways. You will sound better as a vocalist if you make your singing fit the backing you're getting than if you try to change what they're playing by singing louder, gesturing, etc. If you don't tell the band what you want before starting, you have no reasonable expectation that they'll somehow divine your intentions. It's too late to "fix" it once the music starts.

Whether you're the singer or the accompanist, the music matters more. If the band gives you lemons.......

[rpjazzguitar]

Clearly, there are multiple possible scenarios.

My point was about making maximum effort to stay out the singer's way.

Never's point was partly about how the singer should handle it when the sidemen don't do that.

In a session I was thinking about, a horn player who didn't know the tune well enough was playing clams. I don't know how to accommodate to that.

The other part was the amateurs not following the singer's approach when the rest of the band was following it. That creates a decision point. What will serve the audience best? I agree that remaining flexible is good advice.