Major and Minor Blues Scales or Composite Blues Scales for Beginners

[Krinky]

The Blues are a part of Jazz, so I hope it is appropriate to post this here.

Something that I have noticed in perusing Blues learning materials is that some start by teaching what they call the six note Major and Minor Blues Scales. The Major Blues is used on the I and the Minor Blues is used on the IV and V. This teaches the students the tension and release between these two note collections.

Other materials teach a "Composite Blues Scale" made up of all (9) notes from both the Major and Minor Blues scale. The student would then learn the tension and release notes by "feel" from using the scale over changes.

Has anyone experimented with learning or teaching using both approaches? Do you have any thoughts on each approach's merits?

[pauln]

I think what you are calling the Major and Minor Blues scales are the major and minor pentatonic with adjustments to be Blues scales, and what you are calling the composite Blues scale is the Dorian minor, also with adjustments. But let's find out...

You may categorize the basic three chord Blues into three primary forms:
Minor Blues - chords are minor or minor seventh (i iv v or i7 iv7 v7) lower case Roman numerals indicate minor
Dominant Blues - chords are seventh or ninth (I7 IV7 V7 or I9 IV9 V9) upper case Roman numerals indicate major
Major Blues - old Country & Western, some Folk music

For both minor and dominant Blues, you may use the minor pentatonic with its tonic rooted on all the chords' roots. This works OK but the parallelism moving with the chords has a primitive roots music sound. Except for Blues tunes that feature that effect, it sounds awkward.

The common path for Blues guitarists is somewhat like this:
Minor pent on the "one chord" sounds good for both minor and dominant Blues across all three chords
Major pentatonic on the one chord sounds good for dominant Blues across all three chords
Mixing major and minor pentatonic on the one chord sounds great for dominant Blues across all three chords
Major pentatonic on the one chord does not sound good for minor Blues across all three chords
Combining major and minor pentatonic is Dorian minor with added natural 3rd
Both major and minor pentatonic and Dorian minor on the one chord can sound fantastic for both minor and dominant Blues if adjustments are made

Both minor and dominant Blues can take the major and minor pentatonic separately or as a mixture in the form of Dorian minor on all the chords - if you include some adjustments pertaining to the 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th (which means changing the scales to something else or keeping their name plus adjustments). Below, I am indicating the adjustments to scales whose tonic is set to the root of the one chord throughout for both the minor and dominant Blues forms (so the adjustments apply to the use of minor pent, major pent, or Dorian minor, when all those have their tonics on the root of the "one chord" no matter which of the three chords is happening), so take note that the scales' tonics on the one chord's root is the reference for both Blues forms' three chords. This is done so that you may directly hear it like Blues guitarists think. With Blues that has increasingly more "changes" (passing chords, augmented, diminished, bVI chord before the V chord, etc.), a more Jazz perspective leads to a reference moving with the harmony...

Reference: major and minor pentatonic, and Dorian minor,
all tonics on root of "one" (i or I) for all three blues chords

Minor Blues adjustments to scales
i - b5 OK, natural 3rd moving chromatic
iv - natural 3rd moving chromatic, #5 OK, no 6th
v - b5 moving chromatic, no natural 3rd

Dominant Blues adjustments to scales
I9 - b5 OK, natural 3rd OK
VI9 - no natural 3rd, b5 moving chromatic only
V9 - no natural 3rd, b5 moving chromatic only, natural 7 OK

[ragman1]

Personally, I just throw the whole thing in together, it's not either/or. Whatever suits the tune, basically. But I don't suppose that helps at all.

[ragman1]

Here's something. It's rough, I just got up :-)

What you need is the basic blues sound first, then you can complicate it. Don't start with clever, complex stuff first because you'll lose the whole thing. Keep it simple. Simple is good.

[Reg]

The Blues are a part of Jazz, so I hope it is appropriate to post this here.

Something that I have noticed in perusing Blues learning materials is that some start by teaching what they call the six note Major and Minor Blues Scales. The Major Blues is used on the I and the Minor Blues is used on the IV and V. This teaches the students the tension and release between these two note collections.

Other materials teach a "Composite Blues Scale" made up of all (9) notes from both the Major and Minor Blues scale. The student would then learn the tension and release notes by "feel" from using the scale over changes.

Has anyone experimented with learning or teaching using both approaches? Do you have any thoughts on each approach's merits?

Yea... most players who approach playing jazz from this approach generally spend the rest of their life trying to get it together.LOL. I'm having fun...

Without a reference for the Blues approaches you mentioned.... I'm probable not kidding.

Have you ever used MM to help frame Blues approaches?

[ragman1]

Yea... most players who approach playing jazz from this approach generally spend the rest of their life trying to get it together.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Or at least I would have said that if he'd pushed the 'scales' approach.

Have you ever used MM to help frame Blues approaches?

I covered that in the vid for bars 4 to 5 and even then kept it basic.

We know there are other places but this is simplest at this level. Rushing is generally unproductive. In any case, there's not much sense in talking against 'scales' and then introducing multiple Melodic Minors. Like I said, simple is best at the start. He'll get further quicker.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, the important thing to always keep in mind with any scale is that not all notes have equal importance/weight, and that can shift and change depending on the chord of the moment.

[AllanAllen]

My experience was this is precisely where labeling everything with theory gets in the way of playing. My teacher showed me a pentatonic fingering (it's the major or minor depending on where you place the root). Then showed me which are the bendy notes, then some cliche licks to play around with. I've built everything on that.

I can't do the scale per chord thing, I get too mixed up. Maybe in my second decade of jazz I'll get there.

If I could recommend anything to a new student or teacher, focus on comping. You can get by just fine in a solo embellishing the melody, comping is most of the gig, and if you can freely comp, you'll know right where to chord tones are when it's time to solo.

[Krinky]

I know in Jazz y'all tend to favor a chordal approach.

Nonetheless, the scales I reference appear to be the default entry into the Blues.

My question really just comes down to whether students learn more efficiently with one nine-note note collection or two six-note note collections.

[mr. beaumont]

I can't do the scale per chord thing, I get too mixed up. Maybe in my second decade of jazz I'll get there.
.

One scale per chord is a thing, but it's not "the only thing."

I think one of my big discoveries about jazz was you try to get to the point of where you can outline every chord, and then to play an actual musical solo, you don't do that.

[pamosmusic]

Well, the important thing to always keep in mind with any scale is that not all notes have equal importance/weight, and that can shift and change depending on the chord of the moment.

Yeah especially with blues stuff. Not only are they of different importance, but they kind of have specific jobs. I can think of minor pentatonic, plus 2, 6, major 3, and b5 as all pretty normal notes over a blues. But they don’t just roll one after the other like a scale. There are certain ways that blue note tends to pop up, etc.

[pamosmusic]

I know in Jazz y'all tend to favor a chordal approach.

Nonetheless, the scales I reference appear to be the default entry into the Blues.

My question really just comes down to whether students learn more efficiently with one nine-note note collection or two six-note note collections.

I start people with just the pentatonic. But Im a Freddie King Stan and one of my favorite solos is I’m Tore Down, and he very obviously uses more than just five notes. So that’s a solo I use when I start introducing people to the idea that there is more than just the pentatonic. And he uses more than five notes over single chords and doesn’t seem at all like he’s really shifting his pitch collection based on the chord. Rather, he’s just looking for differing emphasis (and sometimes not even that) when he’s in different parts of the phrase. So i think starting small but building—with context and context and context—to having the larger pitch collection is the move. Based on what I hear and see when I check out that kind of music.

[mr. beaumont]

Definitely.

Of course, the other big realization comes from playing the blues itself and listening to really good players and learning that almost NOBODY hangs on that minor 3rd...unless it's a minor blues.

So basically, to play the blues, go ahead and use the minor pentatonic, but be careful with that "minor" part.

[alltunes]

Regarding this topic....I thought this was very cool

[James W]

Definitely.

Of course, the other big realization comes from playing the blues itself and listening to really good players and learning that almost NOBODY hangs on that minor 3rd...unless it's a minor blues.

So basically, to play the blues, go ahead and use the minor pentatonic, but be careful with that "minor" part.

The minor third can be good for a dom7sharp9 sound though.

[pamosmusic]

Definitely.

Of course, the other big realization comes from playing the blues itself and listening to really good players and learning that almost NOBODY hangs on that minor 3rd...unless it's a minor blues.

So basically, to play the blues, go ahead and use the minor pentatonic, but be careful with that "minor" part.

Yeah that’s such a cool thing about that solo in particular is that you hear Freddie nudge that F natural up every single time. Not necessarily to F# but certainly off of F natural.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah that’s such a cool thing about that solo in particular is that you hear Freddie nudge that F natural up every single time. Not necessarily to F# but certainly off of F natural.

There's something called like the "just intonation 3rd" or something fancy...I always called it the blues third. Somewhere in between m3 and M3.

[Krinky]

Yeah especially with blues stuff. Not only are they of different importance, but they kind of have specific jobs. I can think of minor pentatonic, plus 2, 6, major 3, and b5 as all pretty normal notes over a blues. But they don’t just roll one after the other like a scale. There are certain ways that blue note tends to pop up, etc.

I think this goes to the heart of the question...

Two small scales separate the notes more explicitly by function. One big scale gives you all the notes and lets you figure out what sounds best by using them.

But which approach helps students learn faster?

[John A.]

I know in Jazz y'all tend to favor a chordal approach.

Nonetheless, the scales I reference appear to be the default entry into the Blues.

My question really just comes down to whether students learn more efficiently with one nine-note note collection or two six-note note collections.

The default entry into blues is listening and copying. If you're starting with books, you're in trouble. If we're talking electric Chicago-style blues guitar, the only scales I know are the BB King scale and the Otis Rush scale.

I'm not entirely joking.

[Bop Head]

Blues is a feeling. Blues melodies come from singing. Before even considering something like melodic minor or strange theories of pentatonic this and pentatonic that, how about going really way back in time, way back before electric blues guitarists? I highly recommend listening to some of the playlists of the Alan Lomax Archive on YouTube to get a feeling for the African-American roots of US American music.

[pamosmusic]

I think this goes to the heart of the question...

Two small scales separate the notes more explicitly by function.

The problem is that, in the context of actual music, this statement is not really particularly true.

[Bop Head]

Another set of field recordings. Because of the racist justice system in the US especially in the first half of the 20th century many prisoners spent long-time sentences in jail which had the effect that forms of the African-American folklore were preserved inside the prisons that did no longer exist in the outside world.

Nat Adderley's composition Work Song was directly inspired by the chain gangs he witnessed in his youth (@ 1:20):

[mr. beaumont]

The default entry into blues is listening and copying. If you're starting with books, you're in trouble. If we're talking electric Chicago-style blues guitar, the only scales I know are the BB King scale and the Otis Rush scale.

I'm not entirely joking.

The BB Box-- a must know!

I think you can take the raw material--the whole combined scale, and then you have to look at how it was used. The guitar players certainly saw some shapes, especially the electric players...but you go back far enough, nobody was thinking about scales, see Bop Heads' post about vocalists...

Blues, in many ways, is an oral (aural?) tradition. It's easy to over-romanticize this, and I hate the "noble savage" picture painted of these artists which basically treats them as not knowing what they were doing (they most definitely did) but any theory that attempts to explain the blues comes AFTER the music (it's that way with most theory, isn't it?)

So I think a healthy balance of "here's the notes that were used" coupled with "and here's how the artists used them" is important. Concrete examples. Otherwise it's no different than any scalar approach where the nuances aren't explained or considered.

So you figure out what's best by using them, yes, but not through trial and error.

[Krinky]

Yes, of course you use your ears.

But people also use various systems to organize their note collections. CAGED is a thing even among people who have never heard of CAGED.

One of the great things about the human brain is that we can use systems to learn faster.

"Oh! This is like X, except Y!

[ragman1]

I know in Jazz y'all tend to favor a chordal approach.

Nonetheless, the scales I reference appear to be the default entry into the Blues.

My question really just comes down to whether students learn more efficiently with one nine-note note collection or two six-note note collections.

You read what people say, ignore it, and promptly re-state your original question. I can see a wee bit of problem coming up :-)