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Hey everyone,
I've been trying to add to my repertiore recently, and have started wondering about how deep into the weeds I should get on chord shapes when learning new tunes.
When I started out, I was coming from rock and blues, so I used mostly chord shapes with the root on the E and A strings. This lead to some inelegant arrangements, as you can imagine.
As I progressed and started attending jam sessions, I started trying to avoid using the E and A string so as to leave room for the bassist. I picked up some shell voicings and tried to work out alternate voicings to use when comping. This has worked pretty well for me in the shed, but it makes it tricky to play with the other guitarists at our local session.
Recently, I've been working on comping with triads and 3-7 and 1-5 doublestops with an eye toward using my baritone guitar to fill in the bottom end when the bassist can't make it. I find that this approach makes navigating the changes in a new tune much easier, as I don't need to worry about every note in every chord and negotiating complicated fingering mazes. However, I sometimes feel like this approach is a kind of cheat and that I may be missing out on what makes the tune unique.
My question is, is it better to work out full chord arrangements when learning a new song, even if they don't sit very nicely on the fretboard, or is my practice time better spent thinking about the notes I need and what would work best in a band setting with bass, keys, etc?
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01-18-2024 03:27 AM
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Both!
Remember the goal is to know the song rather than have one single way to play it.
There are lots of good threads about chords here but I think it’s pretty uncontroversial to say 173 and 137 shell on the four lowest strings. They give you the bass motion and the smoothest voiceleading in the chord progression. The rootless 37s you’re doing are also great.
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Do both
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So Ahz... You can voice full chords and just play the notes of the voicing you want. Generally comping is about..
1) implying the harmony... which is the root and depending on your skill level, as much of what's implied with the chord by context.
Most jazz players use chord pattern... rather than single chords.
2) Generally you also play a lead line, the notes on top of the chords that also become a harmonic tool which helps imply the harmony.
3) The actual rhythm of what to play working with Harmonic Rhythm
The basic style of the tune implies rhythm figures that help reinforce the Harmony.
Just some notes... most bassist don't just play Roots... LOL
Playing 3rds and 7th is great learning tool.... but is an effect, not comping.
When comping do you know or can you hear extensions of tunes basic changes.
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If I understand the question, the answer is both.
The goal, in my view, is to feel the harmony and have your fingers find the next chord without thought.
I think starting with 4 note chords for this makes sense, with the bass line implied by the lowest note of the chords, if that works.
But, when you're actually playing in a band, you need to be able to comp in different ways. For example, if there's a piano and a busy bass line and/or low pitched horns and bad sound (it all happens) you'll want to pare things down to maybe two notes. Mostly you read about D and G strings, but sometimes it will sound better on the G and B strings. Or you may be able to play Freddie style with the right tone -- that's 2 or 3 notes on lower strings, locked with the bassist. This is facilitated by knowing the fingerboard and knowing the notes in the chords you use. Of course, that's not the only way to do it - I mention it because it's the way I chose.
If the goal is to simply learn the tune, I'd suggest chord melody in a few keys. That will force you to learn things by grip and by note.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-18-2024 at 03:03 PM.
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Ever tried to learn the harmony by bass root movement with the melody (and melodic content) on top of that? That affords you a lot of real estate on the fretboard, lets you see the relationship of root movement to melody, and it helps you train your ear.
I find it helpful to learn harmony by roots, whole notes. Then cut time feel. Then walking bass note. All the time keeping track of the melody that's going on during the tune. This is the way Mick taught me to approach harmony and melody as an extension of harmony. It was really helpful.
Then I'll play the melody, and add bass root, then gradually introduce movement from bass note to bass note.
This trains your ear to hear dynamic movement, opens you up to being able to think in counterpoint rather than grab and paste thinking. Remember that learning a tune is also a process of training your ear, and your hands at the same time.
Work root up, AND top down. Patiently.
That's how I approach it anyway.
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I love this, it has been my goal since picking up the guitar 30 years ago. Still not there, but edging ever closer (I hope).
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That is exactly the situation at my local. Add to that a guitarist who plays all the things all the time, full chords four to the floor. It's chaos. I'm going ever higher in the register just to hear myself, and often I'll just lay out and try to figure out if anyone is listening to anyone else. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Thanks, I'll give this a try on the baritone. It's definitely a new approach for me. I usually start with the chords so I have something to strum on the acoustic, then work out the melody, then edit down. However, when the chords on the lead sheet are too busy or difficult to parse, I tend to struggle. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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You have to train your inner ear for chord changes. Can you accompany someone singing Happy Birthday without sheet music? Beatles or Bob Dylan songs? If you cannot do that how would you want to play jazz. To train your ears transcribe (I mean figure out, no need to notate them) simple songs by ear. Originally Posted by Ahz
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I agree with others that several approaches are important. For me, the context informs the approach. A solo chord melody is different than a guitar-centric jam session, etc. So examine your context and goals.
Books and listening can help. For what it's worth, I found the Barry Galbraith book on comping very useful for its etudes using 4-note chords on the topic four strings, with some basic voice leading. And listening to Jim Hall with Sonny Rollins and others opened my ears and helped me to see shell voicing in a new light. Beyond the usual tritones catching 3rds and 7ths in a shell, he seems to be using 3rds, 4ths and 5ths, too. That helped me to learn the function of a note within the chordal flow, rather than only playing a shape.
About jam sessions, they're a great, but also as you suggest a challenging way to learn, especially with all their unexpected twists and turns. Depending on the locale, it could help to find several venues that hold open jam sessions, even if it means some commute. In my locale, for example, there are 4 venues that hold regular jazz jams once a week, twice a month or monthly, within 40mn drive each way. So, in any given month one can go to 8 or 9 jams. I typically participate in 3-5 a month. The variety is key, some have horns but no guitars, others with different pianists, drummers, etc, at different levels of playing.
To work up a tune for participating in jam sessions, everyone has their own work flow. My approach, as an amateur in it for the fun, is to learn the melody in different registers and fingerings, and play it with iReal at different tempos. Then, working on chording taking into consideration the context of the live playing.
Wherever you're heading, it's a wondrous journey and I wish you all the best to have fun along the way!
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This is probably not an especially helpful response, but I'll say it anyway, just to give some idea of how a musician approaching jazz guitar at really the very very beginning does.
As is my wont, I go for the laziest possible solution, which in my case is to think about how I'd comp on a keyboard instrument, which I never stopped playing and performing on, unlike guitar which had a decades-long pause for me. Say, just the right hand on piano, say, and just mentally cross out dense clusters that are likely impossible or outrageous on an E-std guitar.
Meh, I know how they sound, how they move, and to make it even easier, these same three-note voicings ....they show up in tab and standard notation in just about every guitar book I've seen, even if not the main thrust of whoever's method, if stuck for ideas or don't have the fretboard knowledge to place the exact notes.
(I'll maybe pluck the root from time to time just fooling around at home, but on guitar I like three-note rootless voicings with appropriate extensions 99% of the time, and never on the bottom two strings....well....hardly ever....personal taste, you know, it's just the sound and texture I like on guitar...not too much, and not too little musical "information" for me.)
Oh, here's a kind of random anecdote from a different angle. I was playing around with tenths at the guitar, and was shocked how good they sound. So, I've been playing Ray Charles's version of "Don't Let the Sun Catch You Crying" on piano for .... I don't know .... thirty years at least, note for note straight off the album. I had great fun playing the main ideas of Charles's piano work on the guitar, and even found a nice way to get the melody in there, also voiced in tenths. Even the piano solo fills sound great on guitar, just single note.
To me that was a revelation, using tenths. Maybe not a traditional "modern jazz" sound...but it could be, or it could just be fun.
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I can't give advice because I am not a seasoned jazz player at all.
Just having fun with it sometimes for many years.
But this is what I've noticed -
1. the rhythm matters way more than fancy voicings. Not just a bit more but waaaay more. How to groove, how to be supportive to the tune or solo.
2. keeping chords (notes) simple and lazy can become boring, of course
3. boredom triggers new healthy approach to notes and not just "because I can".. or "must" (this seemed never work well)
4. it doesn't take too much effort to get it sound special in some way and keep it in the sleeve.
So, imho, it is a good idea to work out a complete chord progression for a tune and practice it well.
You can always borrow something from this, not even play the entire thing.
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Have to add this.
At one time, I started to comp good recordings for practice.
Before that I had learned like 10 ways to play a type of a chord. It was so strange to see most of them
fly out of the window, back to simple harmony but the placement became most important.
Again, not giving advice. Just noticed that
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I agree that jam sessions, depending on their nature, can be a very challenging way to learn combo jazz.
At the far end are jams where charts aren't allowed, any tune can be called, somehow everybody but you knows it, the volume is so loud that you can barely make out harmony in the midst of the roar, tempos are fast, no dynamics, minimal mutual listening, the pianist fills up all the available space with his own take on the tune's harmony, or so it seems, and you get your two choruses. The first part of chorus #1 is adjusting to whatever you guitar sounds like in that room through whatever equipment you're using and maybe putting in your earplugs. Typically, tunes are called in their usual keys, but you never know. There is no mutual emotional support. If you're a player who likes to start quietly and build a solo, kiss that goodbye for the evening - nobody is going to be following your lead.
From this, you can compile a list of tunes that got called. If they're commonly called in your area, it's a good idea to learn them. Most likely, it's the usual 50 jazz jam tunes, but doesn't have to be.
At the near end, it's you and your friends. You can use a chart. Tempos can be moderate. Common tunes in their usual keys. Pianist gives you some space, etc etc.
Seems to me that the first scenario is likely to be frustrating for all but very capable and talented players. For us mortals, Door #2 seems more likely to promote growth.
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Nice. I find myself listening very closely to how pianists comp and try to incorporate that into my approach as well. Right now I'm really digging Tommy Flanagan comping for Sonny Rollins on Saxophone Colossus. I feel like he does a great job of providing just the right amount of information without getting in the way. Originally Posted by jackalGreen
About three note rootless voicings on the DGBE, that's what I've been working on as well. It helps me get away from the cowboy chord mentality that comes from all the rock and blues I've played over the years. Also, they're great for the kind of chord stabs I like to hear from both keys and strings.
Also, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about with tenths, would you care to elaborate a bit?
Thanks !
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That is what I normally do. I enjoy sitting down with an unfamiliar chart and seeing where the chords fall, but I feel like I get locked into a certain approach to a tune and can't adapt when that approach isn't appropriate to the situation. Originally Posted by emanresu
For example, I have a chord melody arrangement of Fly Me to the Moon, which was the first really "jazzy" thing I learned. I've been playing that tune that way for years now, but when it's called at a session, I can't really comp over it because in my brain, the chord melody IS the tune. I guess I need to revisit the tunes I play and make sure that, in addition to being able to play them, I really understand them.
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Our local session is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Everyone uses the same book (The Jazz Standard Bible), and we tend to play mid-tempo, but the leader fills up all the space, the keys seem to be off in their own little world, horns will comp when they get bored, and about half the time there is no bass player. Maybe I need to look for some other places to play Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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The Jazzschool in Berkeley opened a couple of decades back and is still going. Within their first few years the school had hundreds of students. There are a lot of people around who want to play this music. Originally Posted by Ahz
Our local session is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Everyone uses the same book (The Jazz Standard Bible), and we tend to play mid-tempo, but the leader fills up all the space, the keys seem to be off in their own little world, horns will comp when they get bored, and about half the time there is no bass player. Maybe I need to look for some other places to play
If you have a place to play, then I'd strongly suggest organizing weekly sessions. The key is getting a bassist. You can play as a duo with a bassist to get started. Then add the players you want.
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Sure! Originally Posted by Ahz
Yeah, I'm almost embarassed to say, I "discovered" tenths on guitar...what, a few days ago!...when I learned Paul McCartney's "Blackbird" on guitar. First Beatles tune I learned on guitar! (I knew "Blackbird" and "Get Back" but from Billy Preston's cover arrangement and playing on those, respectively...probably some others, but first one I actually learned by picking up the guitar and playing it).
Of course, I knew what tenths were, and from piano, any kind of New Orleans, R&B, stride, of course bebop, anything and everything uses those in the LH at some time or another.
As it happens, I knew the tune very well from having heard it, but also having learned it from Billy Preston's cover version and arrangement. So, it was convenient when I had a moment to play around with the tune, but also to abstract that sound of tenths on the upper four strings, in particular.
So, no secret, really. Just fooling around with them.
More of a solo guitar thing than something for comping, but who knows.
OK, here's an example of a little walk-down in tenths.....trying to do tab in text. Like walking down from the IV chord to the I in the key of E, here. Basic, but I've been liking fooling around with it a bit. Sort of jazz-adjacent, I guess.
9 7 5 4
x x x x
x x x x
7 6 4 2
x
x
Notes from the top down (e.g., C#--B-->A-->G# are on the first string, and in this case are the tenth [minor or major tenth, i.e., a third 8va] above the root played on the D string):
C# |B |A |G#
A |G# |F# |E
Not exactly a regular jazz comping thing, necessarily, but still I'm finding the basic idea useful, just to mess around with in idle moments. You know, idle hands never made a record like "Idle Moments"! So, anything that keeps me busy, especially as I'm a very beginner guitar picker, I call that a win.
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Full Chords or shell voicings/doublestops etc when learning a tune?
There's no absolute formula. Depends on the tune and the context. Bottom line: whatever works best for you, the tune, and whoever else is playing.
Less is more, but not too less
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I see, thanks! That is a cool sound Originally Posted by jackalGreen
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