Constraint Led Learning

[Bop Head]

The blog for this site helped me a lot finding a road I enjoy and learn from. This forum inspires me more than any other website. And I always assumed that the attached forum was a place to ask questions and further explore ideas.

My question, also relates to this discussion, is what is expected of us beginners on the forum? Is posting on this forum better left to (semi) professionals and the experienced players? I often feel just creating noise and wasting space when I try to communicate in different topics. I myself a 43 year old amateur (0 talent) always listening to jazz and playing (hobby, no ego) jazz with my friends. But the discussions here often make me feel too dumb, or not on an adequate level of competence to phrase it better, too participate.

Maybe I should 'shut up, read, listen and practice more'

There are no stupid questions you could ask if you do not understand something. It would only be stupid not to ask and if necessary ask again.

[mr. beaumont]

Back to constraints, there's the useful (playing on say one or two strings only) and the silly (the Djangophiles who tape their ring and pinky together)

Or maybe that's not so silly...

[Reg]

Thanks Peter and I guess… also those who also answered. Actually thanks all...


So, the thread basically asked, has anyone used Constraint Learning to learn how to play both Vertically and Horizontally without using scale Patterns.


I may be wrong, but I am taking it that learning to play…. Implies learning to play Jazz or in a jazz style.
And I was guessing using a different fretboard musical organization other than Scale Patterns is from trial and error.


The thing is…. Jazz is about using fretboard organization that is musically organized with Scale Patterns.


You can label the note(s) anyway one chooses, but the basic Reference is already there.
At some point you need a labeling system…


The obvious thing about the guitar is that it is a six string 12 fret repeating pattern. Sometimes the use of a grid is used.... And you use a “RFERENCE” and all the notes with RELATIONSHIPS to that Reference note(s) create a pattern, a six string 12 fret repeating pattern.


That Reference(s) can be a note, a collection of notes or a combination of notes.

The Relationship(s) can be how or whatever one chooses. The silly part is…. These aspects have already been worked out by many people over many years. Save your time and headaches and get up to date before you decide to figure it out yourself.


I love Jimmy’s …” love the unanswered question and ongoing mystery” and all those questions and answers are personal, or at least can be.


But sometimes we as musicians or developing musicians need to make decisions. Decisions usually have results and sometimes those results are good and sometimes bad.


And as usual… all this leads to my same old shit, get your technical skills together and you will be able to make more informed decisions.


You can be a lousy technical player and still play remarkably interesting and emotional music, but you will have more options with technical skills. The journey or road to learning to play Jazz or in a Jazz style is great and all the other one liners... but man it's just not that easy for most. Most of us are just average or at best a little better...

The other aspect is when playing ...you will be able to hear more of what the other players are playing and become an active live part of the music.

[mr. beaumont]

It's probably important to note that "The Advancing Guitarist" (where the one/two string idea comes from) is not a beginners manual, but rather a creative approach for folks who already have some shit together.

But I do like the idea of practicing scales on one or two strings, particularly in conjunction with putting those notes on top of chords...

[Alter]

Regarding Django's two finger approach, it makes sense for the vibrato and the speed and strength of the first two fingers. All things considered, it is the sound of the style, and these fingerings sound extremely authentic, if someone is after that..

[pamosmusic]

It's probably important to note that "The Advancing Guitarist" (where the one/two string idea comes from) is not a beginners manual, but rather a creative approach for folks who already have some shit together.

But I do like the idea of practicing scales on one or two strings, particularly in conjunction with putting those notes on top of chords...

Good point.

The (tired) analogy I use with students is that when you move to a new place, you learn where your house is, where your job is, and where your bagel place is, etc. At first you can get to each of those places from your house, but necessity dictates you learn how to get to, say, your bagel place from your laundromat. Slowly you start learning faster or more scenic or more interesting ways to get from one place to the next, learning more places etc. Eventually you just understand the neighborhood and how it’s laid out and don’t need directions or maps to get to new places.

Analogy being:

you learn the patterns
you learn how they fit together
you come up with possibly contrived ways to force yourself to move through them differently (notes per string, string limitations, etc)
eventually you’re just playing where you need to be.

[mr. beaumont]

Regarding Django's two finger approach, it makes sense for the vibrato and the speed and strength of the first two fingers. All things considered, it is the sound of the style, and these fingerings sound extremely authentic, if someone is after that..

Yeah, if you want to get inside his head, it's not silly at all.

So I think the takeaway for the OP should be, constraints can be challenging, might spark creativity, help you see things differently, etc...

But also--there's some stuff you just gotta know. So using constraints to learn scales? Probably not. Using constraints to do something creative with those scales? Definitely.

[Reg]

Yea those are all great points. But are they where you start from if you had a choice.

I think it's different subject when playing different styles or creating a sound or effect.

Different fingerings are part of both of those. But playing on one or two strings... or all the strings still uses the same fretboard organization... still uses the same notes within that 12 fret repeating pattern.

Different fingering are not how the fretboard is designed or organized. The fretboard doesn't change, fingerings can and do.

Personal example... I use very boring 7 position fretboard Reference, and generally use all 4 fingers with stretches, I've posted all this BS decades ago.... But I also use 3 finger fingerings and change positions way more than most.... way more... I jump around all the time.... But I'm doing this by choice to help create a sound, a feel and even for effect with audiences... the entertainment BS. I love the swing effect created by bouncing and extra movement... percussive and accent patterns created by all this excessive movement.

But this is by choice... And personally it's easy because I have a simple well organized understanding and fingering system that I use as my basic reference. If I need to learn a new fingering... it's easy and doesn't take much time to develop.

[Christian Miller]

Possible red flag that his lessons weren't that good?

I think unless you have actually burnt out from practice you might think this is fairy story stuff. But this is 100% a thing among the very ambitious. The sort of students Mick had.

For me it wasn't so physical, more psychological. I just went... a bit strange. I could practice 8 hours and not notice, and not feel much benefit, just working on one or two stereotyped activities with little room for creativity or even clearly defined process. Just obsessing about one or two things. Totally neurotic.

Now I can do a much more productive hour or two. I have clear, measurable and often ambitious goals, but I allow them to take time if they have to, because they always do. I'm slowly chilling out about it. I have my routine, but sometimes I just need to spend an hour or two going down a rabbit hole. It's OK, the wheels won't come off my playing if I don't do the Routine once or twice. I'm also becoming happier with following my own star. I don't always know why I'm following, but I've learned to trust it.

I developed a healthier relationship with it. Life has forced me to!

People prefer to listen to a relaxed player, it turns out.

I remember a concert pianist saying in a masterclass 'if you need to practice more than three hours, you lack talent'. Harsh - and I'd rather say -if you need more than three hours you don't know how to practice. I actually think talent == the ability to practice well. Some are born with it, some have to learn it.

[Christian Miller]

But I also use 3 finger fingerings and change positions way more than most.... way more... I jump around all the time.... .

It sounds better. I wouldn't say ALL my favourites do that, but quite a lot of them....

[Jimmy blue note]

Practice balance. Practice dynamic architecture in solo structure. Practice motif development. Practice space. Practice strategic phrasing. Practice pacing. Practice harmonic alternatives. Practice taste. These are all things you need to be thoughtful about when you're a good soloist. These are things that it's never too soon to develop.
These are things that keep one advancing. And hopefully you're not going to burn yourself out in being a thinking guitarist.
Maybe not to think of things as constraints, but clearly marked guidelines that are your individual path to ownership.

[jazznylon]

So I'm guessing the sweet spot for practicing is 3 hours? Maybe spend the rest of my time jamming with others as I have nothing else to do...

[PMB]

But also--there's some stuff you just gotta know. So using constraints to learn scales? Probably not.

Even there it's possible if we're talking about how to get them down on the fretboard. I've noticed over the years that learning all the scale notes in any position can be a bit of a daunting task for many students. Taking CAGED major scale positions for example, I find it helps initially to isolate single octaves.

By the way, it was only when I wrote these out in the key of G (the native key for guitar rather than the piano's C) that the alternating pattern of fingerings starting on the 2nd and 4th digit became clear:

[rpjazzguitar]

Playing all your scales and arps on a single string -- and not in the same order every time -- will help in learning what notes are in those scales and arps and where they are.

Not that every great player can do that, but it does work.

[pamosmusic]

Different fingerings are part of both of those. But playing on one or two strings... or all the strings still uses the same fretboard organization... still uses the same notes within that 12 fret repeating pattern.

Yeah, this seems like me if I get what you’re saying. I think I move around a good bit and pretty freely. I’ve done lots and lots of single string playing and things like that, but I still kind of feel like I’m moving between little pieces of those big 6 or 7 patterns that I use in position.

Out of curiosity … why work on all fingers in position if you play mostly three-finger patterns? Just for dexterity, generally?

It sounds better. I wouldn't say ALL my favourites do that, but quite a lot of them....

Why do you think that is?

[pamosmusic]

Playing all your scales and arps on a single string -- and not in the same order every time -- will help in learning what notes are in those scales and arps and where they are.

Not that every great player can do that, but it does work.

Yeah I love it. I think my favorite is pairs of strings though. I feel like they’re super practical, whereas the single strings are more of a brain exercise, but you also don’t get all your patterns and stuff so you have to reach for things.

[Christian Miller]

Even there it's possible if we're talking about how to get them down on the fretboard. I've noticed over the years that learning all the scale notes in any position can be a bit of a daunting task for many students. Taking CAGED major scale positions for example, I find it helps initially to isolate single octaves.

By the way, it was only when I wrote these out in the key of G (the native key for guitar rather than the piano's C) that the alternating pattern of fingerings starting on the 2nd and 4th digit became clear:

I'm yoinking that if you don't mind? This is the way I approach scales these days.

[Christian Miller]

Why do you think that is?

Short answer is it just does - everyone I've played a G major scale to with three fingers prefers the sound of it to the 'correct way' for example.

I've done some videos on this subject.... but maybe I'll do another.

The main one - the player has to make decisions about phrasing - if you need to slide up to a note you will create a bit of legato in your line which can move you away from picking every note and encourage you to phrase in a more hornlike way. Copying a phrase with a three fingered grip you may well intuitively copy inflections and articulations in a horn player's line rather than try to play the pitches in position with every note picked. It's not the only way to travel but it seems to help.

That said if you pronate (or is it supinate?) the fretting hand the third finger and reach really quite far.

The fourth digit is REALLY weak and rubbish. We spend a lot of time strengthening it, but really its use is a necessary evil for chordal and polyphonic playing. For tone and consistency in melodic playing it's much better for most of us to use three fingers as much as possible. We shouldn't shift using the fourth digit, and applying vibrato (even jazz vibrato) with that digit leads to uneven results.

HOWEVER - I've just been transcribing Holdsworth, and honestly the hardest thing about his playing is how heavily he uses that fourth finger. He does all the things I say you shouldn't haha.

In the non-Holdsworth world most of us live in, a guitarist playing single note lines rarely needs to stretch. Everything can be done with shifts. I remember Kurt talking about this but I can't track down the interview - he said realising that he didn't need to use stretches got him out of some physical problems he was having a few years back. Kurt is now primarily a three fingered player.

Thirdly, I think it encourages more fretboard freedom. If you are constantly micro-shifting, playing across and up the fretboard is more natural than staying in position. A good example of this is the Wes Montgomery m13 arpeggio fingering.

Here are Miles Okazaki's thoughts on the subject.
".... In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian..."

Stompin’ at Minton’s (by Miles Okazaki) | DO THE M@TH

To that I'd add, Peter Bernstein. Kurt Rosenwinkel, Pat Metheny, Grant Green, Dave Cliff, Jim Mullen, Jimmy Raney... and many many more... for single note playing. Not all literally only use three fingers all the time, but they all use heavily pronated left hand forms and use the pinky only when absolutely necessary.

Lastly I was once told that classical violinists tend to favour three fingers. Also pianists too, except for direction changes. Lage Lund has applied this approach to guitar. Even though his left hand posture is extremely 'legit' he still favours three fingers except when changing direction.

[PMB]

I'm yoinking that if you don't mind? This is the way I approach scales these days.

Sure. I'll PM you with a few other related pages as well in better picture quality. I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.

[Christian Miller]

Sure. I'll PM you with a few other related pages as well in better picture quality. I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.

Please do!

[jazznylon]

I hear violin players are into playing one string.. so in a way I think some string instrumentalists share a sort of common ground. Once one adds more strings things become different due to the nature of multiple tunings

[pamosmusic]

Sure. I'll PM you with a few other related pages as well in better picture quality. I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.

Erm … me too?

[pamosmusic]

Short answer is it just does - everyone I've played a G major scale to with three fingers prefers the sound of it to the 'correct way' for example.

I've done some videos on this subject.... but maybe I'll do another.

The main one - the player has to make decisions about phrasing - if you need to slide up to a note you will create a bit of legato in your line which can move you away from picking every note and encourage you to phrase in a more hornlike way. Copying a phrase with a three fingered grip you may well intuitively copy inflections and articulations in a horn player's line rather than try to play the pitches in position with every note picked. It's not the only way to travel but it seems to help.

That said if you pronate (or is it supinate?) the fretting hand the third finger and reach really quite far.

The fourth digit is REALLY weak and rubbish. We spend a lot of time strengthening it, but really its use is a necessary evil for chordal and polyphonic playing. For tone and consistency in melodic playing it's much better for most of us to use three fingers as much as possible. We shouldn't shift using the fourth digit, and applying vibrato (even jazz vibrato) with that digit leads to uneven results.

HOWEVER - I've just been transcribing Holdsworth, and honestly the hardest thing about his playing is how heavily he uses that fourth finger. He does all the things I say you shouldn't haha.

In the non-Holdsworth world most of us live in, a guitarist playing single note lines rarely needs to stretch. Everything can be done with shifts. I remember Kurt talking about this but I can't track down the interview - he said realising that he didn't need to use stretches got him out of some physical problems he was having a few years back. Kurt is now primarily a three fingered player.

Thirdly, I think it encourages more fretboard freedom. If you are constantly micro-shifting, playing across and up the fretboard is more natural than staying in position. A good example of this is the Wes Montgomery m13 arpeggio fingering.

Here are Miles Okazaki's thoughts on the subject.
".... In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian..."

Stompin’ at Minton’s (by Miles Okazaki) | DO THE M@TH

To that I'd add, Peter Bernstein. Kurt Rosenwinkel, Pat Metheny, Grant Green, Dave Cliff, Jim Mullen, Jimmy Raney... and many many more... for single note playing. Not all literally only use three fingers all the time, but they all use heavily pronated left hand forms and use the pinky only when absolutely necessary.

Lastly I was once told that classical violinists tend to favour three fingers. Also pianists too, except for direction changes. Lage Lund has applied this approach to guitar. Even though his left hand posture is extremely 'legit' he still favours three fingers except when changing direction.

This is cool and all makes sense. I’m not disagreeing with any of it, obviously. So many jazz dudes play that way. But it makes me think of a a couple interesting points about my own playing.

• Pinkie is one of my best fingers for vibrato. Maybe because I do a classical horizontal vibrato.
• I play bebop heads in lots of positions in part so I have to copy the articulation in places where it isn’t exactly natural. That said, I always have one or two fingerings for the head where I actually perform it because the fingers are more natural.
• When I play on one or two strings I actually favor my fourth finger over my third.

This stuff is weird

[Reg]

Yea, great discussion and points.

yea PMB... caged is just part of playing and works great for a style of playing. And single octaves are also etc.

Peter... I don't always use three fingers... because I play a jazz box with slightly higher action most of the time. That naturally creates a sound and generally makes different fingerings have a more defined sound and feel.
I generally use 7 position, 4 fingers and stretches generally for most of my life... from sight read music.

And I like the way fast rhythmic patterns sound different as compared to caged 3 finger shift patterns. And fretboard movement.

I think once you understand how the guitar works and have some skills... you can use any fingerings.
This is really the thing...and there are different approaches for getting there. But you do need to get there.
You need to be able to Repeat what you do without going through a mental process to do so. The thinking thing is better used with listening to what going on and what you want to do, interact and react.

Getting into practice schedules... Disclaimer, I haven't practiced for years, at least not very much. But when I did and how I was taught was... Have a flexible and adjust as needed schedule which includes what's required to get where you want etc...

And I posted years ago.... have built in different lengths of time which are flexible. You need at least one very long session. Longer session allow you to reach higher levels of technique. Which mechanically teach you internally... lol. Organized short sessions don't work. You also need to learn standard Jazz vamps and learn how to harmonically expand them. Which also opens your ears melodically. As compared to just melodically developing your improv. I guess that could be the constraint sessions LOL.

Strings or vln. etc... are tuned differently, they are in 5ths. Different and difficult to play well. I played cello because Vln. was just to difficult.(small). Intonation was much easier on cello. I sucked... but part of composing and arranging requires knowing how instruments work... at least that's how I was taught as a kid lol.

[Christian Miller]

This is cool and all makes sense. I’m not disagreeing with any of it, obviously. So many jazz dudes play that way. But it makes me think of a a couple interesting points about my own playing.

• Pinkie is one of my best fingers for vibrato. Maybe because I do a classical horizontal vibrato.
• I play bebop heads in lots of positions in part so I have to copy the articulation in places where it isn’t exactly natural. That said, I always have one or two fingerings for the head where I actually perform it because the fingers are more natural.
• When I play on one or two strings I actually favor my fourth finger over my third.

This stuff is weird

maybe you’d do better with Allan than me then haha

Actually physiologically, third and fourth finger together is stronger than the other two.