Friendly fretboard organization? Is it possible?

[freud]

Hey guys.

It's me again. I'm trying to pick myself up after recently giving up the guitar for a few months. I am looking for a new way of learning.
I have a question/request. Can you tell me how you organize the notes - chords tones (intervals) on the guitar? What I mean is a logical and transparent method - ideally one that allows you to look at the fretboard like a pianist looks at the keyboard. I looked but didn't find it. Maybe someone has gone through a similar approach or knows how to organize it all in a logical, transparent and accessible way?

[AllanAllen]

Pick a major scale system and learn it. CAGED, 3 notes per string, Levitt's 7 positions... whatever just pick one. Take a month and practice it straight up and down. Then play some patterns 1234 2345 3456 up the scale, then go up and down by 3rds, then triads, then up to 7ths chords. Now it'll have been a year and you'll see it.

If you want something easier, give up and play saxophone or piano. It's how the instrument works.

[pamosmusic]

Pick a major scale system and learn it. CAGED, 3 notes per string, Levitt's 7 positions... whatever just pick one. Take a month and practice it straight up and down. Then play some patterns 1234 2345 3456 up the scale, then go up and down by 3rds, then triads, then up to 7ths chords. Now it'll have been a year and you'll see it.

If you want something easier, give up and play saxophone or piano. It's how the instrument works.

+ 1

The instrument just isn’t terribly intuitive. But before you wish it were more like piano, remember that we have to learn a bunch of fingerings but we transpose in a snap. Seeing the guitar like a piano would mean actually having to transpose all your lines and patterns.

Gotta take the bad with the good.

And +1 to the intervals and triads and such through scales. All intervals are good … 3rds right up to big compound intervals. Thats kind of the only way to do it. You can’t just decide to see it a certain way … you have to train yourself pretty hard.

[emanresu]

The eye-friendly layout would be something like this:
Fingerboard mapper 2000 ULTRA Turbo plus
click "presets", click "gtr. diat+dom7"

You dont have to use this app at all, not advertising it here. That preset is just an idea how to make it look nice.
You can draw your own diagrams in Paint or somesuch. No clutter, only the info you need.

[emanresu]

Furthermore, If you're prone to frustration because of the complexity of the fretboard (like me),
You could start with only 3 slices of patterns that cover the whole fretboard.
In a way that they just touch but don't mingle. The usual route is 5 or 6 scale patterns
and they can cause a headache when wanting to become familiar with all the triads, degrees, intervals inside them.

Slice the board 3 ways, once you get familiar with them, you can mind them but play in between them... instead minding 5 or 6.
the example:
diat.jpg - Google Drive

[pauln]

Here is an idea that may help referencing things. If you know CAGED, or position fingering patterns, or intervals, or pentatonic scales this may help integrate them for chords and solo lines; if you don't know those it may help learn them.

If you play the E minor pentatonic scale or an E chord in cowboy chord land just above the nut you notice that the roots and tonics occur on the 6 4 and 1 strings. Call this 641.

The next position up the neck has the roots and tonics on the 4 and 2 strings - 42.

If you keep going up the neck the whole thing looks like this:

Root/tonic code and corresponding caged form

641 = E form
42 - D form
52 = C form
53 = A form
631 = G form
641 (12th fret position)
etc.

Those codes indicate a position's fingering pattern's strings where the octaves of the chord roots and scale tonics are played, and correspond to the CAGED fingering patterns (so the roots of the familiar CAGED forms indicate the finger positions of the actual roots and tonics of that position pattern)... and all of this is invariaent across all keys.

The idea is to use the root/tonic octave codes just long enough until you "get it", then no matter what chord, scale, position, or fingering, you will instantly know where the R/T octaves are, or you can identifying the R/T for what chord, scale, position, or fingering you wish to use at the moment.

Once you "get it", a lot of the mental mechanics of figuring out where you are or need to be and how to play what you want while there falls away.

[AllanAllen]

Furthermore, If you're prone to frustration because of the complexity of the fretboard (like me),
You could start with only 3 slices of patterns that cover the whole fretboard.
In a way that they just touch but don't mingle. The usual route is 5 or 6 scale patterns
and they can cause a headache when wanting to become familiar with all the triads, degrees, intervals inside them.

Slice the board 3 ways, once you get familiar with them, you can mind them but play in between them... instead minding 5 or 6.
the example:
diat.jpg - Google Drive

This mapping is called 3NPS "three notes per string"

[oldHaus]

Here is what I teach:

The map of the natural notes (white notes) on the E string (6th string): frets 0;1;3;5;7;8;10;12
That corresponds to notes: e; f; g; a; b; c; d; e

Then learn the same type of map, but on the A string (5th string): frets 0;2;3;5;7;8;10;12
notes: a, b, c, d, e, f, g, a

[Obviously understand the musical alphabet, naturals, sharps/flats, and other basics before memorizing the above.]

Then use the "octave shape". This shape is part of the power chord, something I show students in their 2nd ever lesson with me. The shape is up 2 string and 2 frets.
e.g. start with fret 3 on the E string. Use the octave shape to find fret 5 on the D string.

Now, you already memorized that fret 3 on E is the note G. That means that fret 5 on the D string is the note G.

This is the easiest way to eventually be able to name any note on the fretboard instantly.

It should take about 2-3 weeks to absorb what I have written above.

What usually happens is people are presented with an optimal answer, but they don't put in the time to apply it. The results will not come in a day or a week.

Use what I wrote above, thoroughly, for a month and you will never wonder about what note you're on ever again.

[Tal_175]

Hey guys.

It's me again. I'm trying to pick myself up after recently giving up the guitar for a few months. I am looking for a new way of learning.
I have a question/request. Can you tell me how you organize the notes - chords tones (intervals) on the guitar? What I mean is a logical and transparent method - ideally one that allows you to look at the fretboard like a pianist looks at the keyboard. I looked but didn't find it. Maybe someone has gone through a similar approach or knows how to organize it all in a logical, transparent and accessible way?

This is a very crucial part of learning jazz guitar, IMO. Your practice time productivity and stamina is directly affected by how easily you can find your way around the fretboard. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a universally agreed upon approach to fretboard harmony. I agree with AllanAllen that internalizing the major scale goes a long way.

Even after internalizing the major scale you still have to find a way to put your major scale mapping in service of how you organize your vocabulary, voice leading, voicing construction etc. in a more chord specific way. A lot of what comes after the basics of fretboard (note names, scales, intervals, arpeggios) seem to be informed by players' personal approach to jazz.

[jazznylon]

How about tuning in major 3rds? You'll be able to learn intervals and chord tones far quicker... no need for systems... weird exotic scales at your fingertips... no more sax or piano envy... join the triangle light

[emanresu]

How about tuning in major 3rds? You'll be able to learn intervals and chord tones far quicker... no need for systems... weird exotic scales at your fingertips... no more sax or piano envy... join the triangle light

.... this is has been so tempting for me. When I pondered about this, I was 30 years old and already it seemed a way too huge step to take

[Tal_175]

Here is an idea that may help referencing things. If you know CAGED, or position fingering patterns, or intervals, or pentatonic scales this may help integrate them for chords and solo lines; if you don't know those it may help learn them.

If you play the E minor pentatonic scale or an E chord in cowboy chord land just above the nut you notice that the roots and tonics occur on the 6 4 and 1 strings. Call this 641.

The next position up the neck has the roots and tonics on the 4 and 2 strings - 42.

If you keep going up the neck the whole thing looks like this:

Root/tonic code and corresponding caged form

641 = E form
42 - D form
52 = C form
53 = A form
631 = G form
641 (12th fret position)
etc.

Those codes indicate a position's fingering pattern's strings where the octaves of the chord roots and scale tonics are played, and correspond to the CAGED fingering patterns (so the roots of the familiar CAGED forms indicate the finger positions of the actual roots and tonics of that position pattern)... and all of this is invariaent across all keys.

The idea is to use the root/tonic octave codes just long enough until you "get it", then no matter what chord, scale, position, or fingering, you will instantly know where the R/T octaves are, or you can identifying the R/T for what chord, scale, position, or fingering you wish to use at the moment.

Once you "get it", a lot of the mental mechanics of figuring out where you are or need to be and how to play what you want while there falls away.

This is the first step of intervallic view of fretboard, right? The next step is to work on intervallically identifying other notes in each position with respect to root/tonic. I worked on this view quite a bit. If you know your scale and chord construction intervallically, this view gives you a complete freedom to access any scale or chord or extension.

[pauln]

This is the first step of intervallic view of fretboard, right? The next step is to work on intervallically identifying other notes in each position with respect to root/tonic. I worked on this view quite a bit. If you know your scale and chord construction intervallically, this view gives you a complete freedom to access any scale or chord or extension.

Also very nice for the ear ear because the abstractions the ear uses to "hear and hold" harmonies and melodies map to these equivalences of scale, chord, position, and fingering. The ear would eventually figure this out and adapt some internal representaion of this or other kind of perspective. Internalizing a schema like this or other perspective on the finger board provides some construction reference, organization, and encouragement for the ear.

[st.bede]

Greek/Church Modes, CAGED, or position playing are the only systems that I have come across, and used.

Guitar’s logic is not readily available, unlike piano. I have never come across an easy systems.

There are benefits and determinants to all things. I personally really appreciate the benefits. There is a freedom and a quizzical nature to the guitar. It ask me to never get too comfortable with what I am doing, because there so many other options or paths to take.

[Litterick]

Back in the day, or so I am told, guitarists would learn the notes on the two lowest strings, and find everything else from there: a scale will start on the E or the A, as will a chord. It is an effective method of exploring the fretboard.

[pauln]

Back in the day, or so I am told, guitarists would learn the notes on the two lowest strings, and find everything else from there: a scale will start on the E or the A, as will a chord. It is an effective method of exploring the fretboard.

Identification of the roots and tonics of the CAGED fingering forms imposed on the positions immediately indicates their octaves; knowing the E and A string notes then extends directly to their octave(s) within the whole position, et vice versa doing it down from a note on a string above the A string to the E or A string to identify it.

Back in the day I think they were using a subset of the above of only the octaves, knowing how the octaves span either three or four frets, depending on string pair, position and fingering (which finger is further up the neck) - very similar.

[Christian Miller]

There’s two ways to map the guitar and both are useful in different ways
1) intervals
2) notes

[Litterick]

Identification of the roots and tonics of the CAGED fingering forms imposed on the positions immediately indicates their octaves; knowing the E and A string notes then extends directly to their octave(s) within the whole position, et vice versa doing it down from a note on a string above the A string to the E or A string to identify it.

Back in the day I think they were using a subset of the above of only the octaves, knowing how the octaves span either three or four frets, depending on string pair, position and fingering (which finger is further up the neck) - very similar.

No, they were not using a subset of CAGED, because that monstrosity had not been invented. They were using the E and A as guides to the rest of the fretboard, which I think is how most guitarists start a scale or find the root of a chord — those of us who remain blissfully ignorant of positions.

I wish I could remember the source — it included a diagram made in the 1920s or 1930s, which elegantly demonstrated how those two strings led to everything else.

[rpjazzguitar]

My suggestion:

Learn to read. All over the neck. Then you'll have all the notes mapped out and as a bonus, you'll know how to read.

Figure 6 months.

[BradGuitar]

It’s a big topic and different things work for different people.

My story, for whatever it maybe worth, was that I’d gone through most of the popular things, CAGED, 3NPS, 7 positions but it wasn’t until I was shown the 5 fret method that things really changed for me and allowed me to see and learn the fretboard in a logical way (to my brain at least).

I started with the Major scale between frets 1-5 in all keys. Beginning with the C major scale. Starting on the lowest available root note, covering the entire position. Then I’d go through the cycle of 5ths to F# major. Then I’d go through the cycle of 4ths from C major through to Gb major (e harmonic equivalent to F# major). By doing so, I could begin to see where each note changes in the next key - where the F becomes F# in G Major, or where the D note becomes Db from Eb major to Ab major etc.

From there, it would be a case of doing intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths 6ths and 7ths.

Diatonic triads and 7th arps both harmonically and melodically.

You could take one concept, say root diminished arpeggios and do them chromatically in that range. Regardless of what the topic is, it will exhaust a lot of the possibilities needed.

Then all the things between frets 1-5 just transfer along the neck. And whilst that is a whole lot of work in itself, because the hard yards have been done it frets 1-5, it feels that bit more achievable to get these things across the neck.

For me, the beauty of it, is that it actually incorporates all of the other systems, little bits of CAGED, 3NPS kind of mashed together. And of course those are all still available, it doesn’t have to be either/or. There is a whole musical universe waiting to be found between frets 1-5.

Whenever I want to get something new on the fretboard down, my go to is always frets 1-5 to begin with. It’s a bit dry admittedly, but here’s an example of me getting triad pairs together.

[Tal_175]

It’s a big topic and different things work for different people.

My story, for whatever it maybe worth, was that I’d gone through most of the popular things, CAGED, 3NPS, 7 positions but it wasn’t until I was shown the 5 fret method that things really changed for me and allowed me to see and learn the fretboard in a logical way (to my brain at least).

I started with the Major scale between frets 1-5 in all keys. Beginning with the C major scale. Starting on the lowest available root note, covering the entire position. Then I’d go through the cycle of 5ths to F# major. Then I’d go through the cycle of 4ths from C major through to Gb major (e harmonic equivalent to F# major). By doing so, I could begin to see where each note changes in the next key - where the F becomes F# in G Major, or where the D note becomes Db from Eb major to Ab major etc.

From there, it would be a case of doing intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths 6ths and 7ths.

Diatonic triads and 7th arps both harmonically and melodically.

You could take one concept, say root diminished arpeggios and do them chromatically in that range. Regardless of what the topic is, it will exhaust a lot of the possibilities needed.

Then all the things between frets 1-5 just transfer along the neck. And whilst that is a whole lot of work in itself, because the hard yards have been done it frets 1-5, it feels that bit more achievable to get these things across the neck.

For me, the beauty of it, is that it actually incorporates all of the other systems, little bits of CAGED, 3NPS kind of mashed together. And of course those are all still available, it doesn’t have to be either/or. There is a whole musical universe waiting to be found between frets 1-5.

Whenever I want to get something new on the fretboard down, my go to is always frets 1-5 to begin with. It’s a bit dry admittedly, but here’s an example of me getting triad pairs together.

So some of the keys will amount to playing all 5 CAGED positions in one area of the neck, some of the keys would be half step up or down versions of the CAGED positions and some keys would be hybrid fingerings (CAGED and 3NPS), right?

[BradGuitar]

So some of the keys will amount to playing all 5 CAGED positions in one area of the neck, some of the keys would be half step up or down versions of the CAGED positions and some keys would be hybrid fingersins (CAGED and 3NPS), right?

Yeah exactly. I know it’s probably heresy to speak in terms of ‘shapes’, but some of the shapes duplicate a semitone apart - G and Gb/F#, D and Db (we could move the high C to the G string fret 5 for another option). A and Ab are very similar. So that kind of reduces the amount of learning. All the CAGED shapes are there and as you say, some could be thought of as CAGED/3NPS hybrids too.

I mean, who can argue with Jimmy Bruno? I know his way of looking at the fretboard is pretty much CAGED shapes, albeit a different way of looking/naming them... I dunno, I’d tried with all other methods and whilst I thought I knew the fretboard (which is always on ongoing thing I might add!), I was always coming up short and being shown the 5 fret method really showed some flaws in the methods I was initially using.

I can’t stress enough that they all have their place, but if I had my time all over again, I’d definitely start with and get the grounding in the 5 fret method and then explore other methods, 2/3NPS etc. each to their own of course.

[Tal_175]

Yeah exactly. I know it’s probably heresy to speak in terms of ‘shapes’, but some of the shapes duplicate a semitone apart - G and Gb/F#, D and Db (we could move the high C to the G string fret 5 for another option). A and Ab are very similar. So that kind of reduces the amount of learning. All the CAGED shapes are there and as you say, some could be thought of as CAGED/3NPS hybrids too.

I mean, who can argue with Jimmy Bruno? I know his way of looking at the fretboard is pretty much CAGED shapes, albeit a different way of looking/naming them... I dunno, I’d tried with all other methods and whilst I thought I knew the fretboard (which is always on ongoing thing I might add!), I was always coming up short and being shown the 5 fret method really showed some flaws in the methods I was initially using.

I can’t stress enough that they all have their place, but if I had my time all over again, I’d definitely start with and get the grounding in the 5 fret method and then explore other methods, 2/3NPS etc. each to their own of course.

Yeah, it sounds like a great method for a motivated student. An interesting variation would be, say, if you played C major in the first 5 frets, that would be the "C shape". Next if you go up a forth to F, in the same area that would be the "E shape". But then after that you can play F major again in the "C shape" by going up 5 frets while the "C shape" it's still fresh. This violates one of the pedagogical objectives of drilling the fretboard area by area so it may not be advisable in the very early stages but when used occasionally it may smooth out the learning curve of other areas later on.

[pauln]

No, they were not using a subset of CAGED, because that monstrosity had not been invented. They were using the E and A as guides to the rest of the fretboard, which I think is how most guitarists start a scale or find the root of a chord — those of us who remain blissfully ignorant of positions.

I wish I could remember the source — it included a diagram made in the 1920s or 1930s, which elegantly demonstrated how those two strings led to everything else.

Not no; a past subset of a future set is still a subset of that set. Existence in math is not temporal.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah exactly. I know it’s probably heresy to speak in terms of ‘shapes’, but some of the shapes duplicate a semitone apart - G and Gb/F#, D and Db (we could move the high C to the G string fret 5 for another option). A and Ab are very similar. So that kind of reduces the amount of learning. All the CAGED shapes are there and as you say, some could be thought of as CAGED/3NPS hybrids too.

I mean, who can argue with Jimmy Bruno? I know his way of looking at the fretboard is pretty much CAGED shapes, albeit a different way of looking/naming them... I dunno, I’d tried with all other methods and whilst I thought I knew the fretboard (which is always on ongoing thing I might add!), I was always coming up short and being shown the 5 fret method really showed some flaws in the methods I was initially using.

I can’t stress enough that they all have their place, but if I had my time all over again, I’d definitely start with and get the grounding in the 5 fret method and then explore other methods, 2/3NPS etc. each to their own of course.

In his defense, Jimmy Bruno's video is called Lesson 1. Not "How to navigate the fretboard for the rest of your life." I like the 5 fret idea and I'm going to add that to my warmups.