Friendly fretboard organization? Is it possible?

[Reg]

Yea Freud ... the guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern. You need to pick a system... caged or position and ... FINISH the process. In the end your going to use all of the different fretboard organizational systems.

Different styles etc... need different fingering etc... Like I said... once you finish a system you'll have a starting reference which will allow you learn and understand the others.

If it was that simple.... everyone would have it together.

[AllanAllen]

Sorry.

I forgive you.

[P4guitar]

I forgive you.

Thank you, a great burden has been lifted.

[Litterick]

Do you find it simplifying chord forms and note patterns? By simplifying, I mean reducing the number of forms you have to memorize?

My thing is playing freely without thinking about the names of the shapes I am playing. The even fretboard makes that easier, and I do not have to think about that third.

[Christian Miller]

Inclined to agree with all this.

But I do imagine this thread would still exist on the hypothetical P4JGO.

I think P4JGO would be even worse than the standard tuned variety…

[Bop Head]

I think P4JGO would be even worse than the standard tuned variety…

I smell blacklisting of standard tuners ...

[GuyBoden]

P4 is overrated. IMHO.

I've been playing in P4 for a long time, maybe about 15 years, I'd been playing guitar for 30 years previously, since a teenager.

P4 is not good for guitaristic music. Rock, Folk, the Chuck Berry riff. IMO.

I lost a lot of my guitar chord grips when I changed, I still can't play some chords in songs because the stretch between some notes is too large.

Due to the symmetrical nature of P4, it's easier to create chords based on notes not shapes, but having standard P4 chord grips is faster.

P4 has improved my reading/playing of other instrument's notation, but probably not guitar notation.

Improv is in the ears, so you need to learn to play what you hear, whatever the tuning or instrument.

Tom Quayle uses P4 and is the best P4 player I've heard.

Edit: The real positive thing is that using standard Guitar Tab doesn't work for P4.

[P4guitar]

P4 is overrated. IMHO.

I find the opposite; most people react negatively to the idea of P4, as this thread attests.

I lost a lot of my guitar chord grips when I changed, I still can't play some chords in songs because the stretch between some notes is too large.

I've been playing in P4 for over 30 years and I'm not having any problems with chords. Exactly what chords give you trouble?

Tom Quayle uses P4 and is the best P4 player I've heard.

Quayle is a great single line player. He may also be great at solo guitar, but I haven't heard anything from him as a jazz chordist.

PS: your link didn't work for me. Could be my system, dunno.

[pamosmusic]

I find the opposite; most people react negatively to the idea of P4, as this thread attests.

I don’t have anything against P4s tuning … I just tend to be skeptical of anyone who says they’ve solved the problem of mapping the fingerboard by really any means.

Glad it works for what it works for. Skeptical that the hypothetical P4JGO would have no threads on this topic.

[P4guitar]

I don’t have anything against P4s tuning …

That's nice to hear.

I just tend to be skeptical of anyone who says they’ve solved the problem of mapping the fingerboard by really any means.

Of course I never said the mapping is "solved", I said it's simpler...and it is.

Glad it works for what it works for. Skeptical that the hypothetical P4JGO would have no threads on this topic.

That's fine.

[GuyBoden]

I've been playing in P4 for over 30 years and I'm not having any problems with chords. Exactly what chords give you trouble?

In standard tuning I played chords for Holdsworth's 'PudWud' and 'House of Mirrors', but the stretches are too much in P4 tuning.

A lot of the chords in Mick Goodrick's Guitar Voice Leading Almanacs are even more difficult than standard tuning in P4 tuning too.

So, that essentially means that any chord that has a stretch to the high strings on lower frets in standard tuning are impossible in P4.

P4 works if you use easier basic shapes, like this video below.

[pamosmusic]

Of course I never said the mapping is "solved", I said it's simpler...and it is.

*shrugs*

[pamosmusic]

P4 works if you use easier basic shapes, like this video below.

If I’m not mistaken, this is from our interlocutor’s YouTube channel (and sounds quite nice, by the way).

[GuyBoden]

Indeed it does. If this was a forum for symmetric tuners, this thread wouldn't exist.

Of course I never said the mapping is "solved", I said it's simpler...and it is.

After nearly 15 years of P4, I prefer the tuning, but it does not solve the problem of fretboard mapping, all string instruments have the same issue (repeated notes). The guitar's standard tuning is non-symmetrical, which helps playing standard guitar chord shapes.

[jazznylon]

Yeah.. even major thirds tuning has chords with annoying stretches like this maj 7 chord xx9665 (7 1 3 5). What I do is drop the lowest note(s) down an octave just to see if the specific chord formula is playable or not. Or raise the highest note(s) up an octave.

So in the case of xx9665, drop the bass note below 5xx665 definitedly playable but has that minor 9th. What about raising the highest note above an octave? 9665xx --> 966xx9 more of a challenge to play but I prefer the sound of this one.

Thanks to this tactic I was able to write down all possible 4 note chords (drops including inversions) for major 3rds tuning as they are 'playable'. I'm almost certain that std and p4 tuning could achieve the same feat

[P4guitar]

In standard tuning I played Holdsworth's 'PudWud' and 'House of Mirrors', but the stretches are too much in P4 tuning.

I have no idea what these stretches are as I'm not very familiar with Holdsworth, nor do I know if you're referring to chords, intervals, or lines as you're not presenting something specific. That said, both tunings have idiosyncratic shapes that are difficult to translate to another system, as I'm sure you know. FWIW, I've never had something I couldn't work around though.

A lot of the Mick Goodrick's Guitar Voice Leading Almanacs are even more difficult than standard tuning in P4 tuning too.

Again, you don't present any specifics. And Goodrick's material was targeted to SGT.

So, that essentially means that any chord that has a stretch to the high strings on lower frets in standard tuning are impossible in P4.

I'm not sure what this means specifically. Will you provide an example and in context?

P4 works if you use easier basic shapes, like this video below.

LOL! Anyway, that's 13/14 years ago when I first got into video making and solo guitar improvisation. It's by far my worst video, with bad audio, and mostly interval based, not very chord intensive. My other vids, from the same time period, have a lot more chordal work, but I'm sure you realized that too.

[P4guitar]

After nearly 15 years of P4, I prefer the tuning, but it does not solve the problem of fretboard mapping, all string instruments have the same issue (repeated notes). The guitar's standard tuning is non-symmetrical, which helps playing standard guitar chord shapes.

1. Repeated notes are not an issue IMO.

2. Again, you make it sound like chords are harder in P4 which isn't true, they're different, that's all.

Do you play chords in P4 or are you mostly a single line player?

[P4guitar]

If I’m not mistaken, this is from our interlocutor’s YouTube channel (and sounds quite nice, by the way).

Yes, that's me and I'm sure you're sincere. See my reply to Boden regarding this old video.

[pamosmusic]

Again, you don't present any specifics. And Goodrick's material was targeted to SGT.

I guess, but it’s mostly focused on just having someone be able to play musical concepts all over the fingerboard, so I’d imagine it would be something applicable to any tuning.

The whole section on triads comes to mind.

I'm not sure what this means specifically. Will you provide an example and in context?

He means that, because the string is tuned a bit higher relative to its lower neighbor, stretches that require stretching back toward the headstock will be harder because you’ll need to stretch a fret further on P4 tuning than on standard tuning (ie a drop 2 chord that has a second in the middle voices). The obvious compensation here being that chords requiring stretches up toward the bridge will be easier.

[P4guitar]

I guess, but it’s mostly focused on just having someone be able to play musical concepts all over the fingerboard, so I’d imagine it would be something applicable to any tuning.

Agreed. Musical concepts apply to any tuning or instrument. Boden stated that some of the material was difficult with P4, probably true as Goodrick tuned in standard. Had he tuned in P4, the reverse would be true.

The whole section on triads comes to mind.

I'm not familiar with his book so I can't comment.

He means that, because the string is tuned a bit higher relative to its lower neighbor, stretches that require stretching back toward the headstock will be harder because you’ll need to stretch a fret further on P4 tuning than on standard tuning (ie a drop 2 chord that has a second in the middle voices). The obvious compensation here being that chords requiring stretches up toward the bridge will be easier.

You are completely correct. P4 is almost like a different instrument...but with a greatly simplified fretboard map

[pamosmusic]

Agreed. Musical concepts apply to any tuning or instrument. Boden stated that some of the material was difficult with P4, probably true as Goodrick tuned in standard. Had he tuned in P4, the reverse would be true.

Well … the spelling of triads doesn’t change to suit either tuning.

I'm not familiar with his book so I can't comment.

Weird flex after commenting on the material in the book and intention of its author.

[P4guitar]

Yeah.. even major thirds tuning has chords with annoying stretches like this maj 7 chord xx9665 (7 1 3 5). What I do is drop the lowest note(s) down an octave just to see if the specific chord formula is playable or not. Or raise the highest note(s) up an octave.

So in the case of xx9665, drop the bass note below 5xx665 definitedly playable but has that minor 9th. What about raising the highest note above an octave? 9665xx --> 966xx9 more of a challenge to play but I prefer the sound of this one.

Thanks to this tactic I was able to write down all possible 4 note chords (drops including inversions) for major 3rds tuning as they are 'playable'. I'm almost certain that std and p4 tuning could achieve the same feat

Yep, adjustments and compromises must be made if the fretboard map is altered. I've found that where exact SGT forms cannot be replicated, focus on the important notes and drop out the less important notes - there's many roads to Rome. Obviously, the reverse is true in that some good sounding forms from one tuning can't be replicated in other tunings like SGT. It's always a tradeoff.

[pamosmusic]

Again, you don't present any specifics. And Goodrick's material was targeted to SGT.

Goodricks voiceleading manual is not guitar specific at all. It’s not written for guitar players, standard tuning or otherwise. It doesn’t even have note heads, let alone suggested fingerings or anything guitar particular. It would be equally useful for a vibraphonist.

[GuyBoden]

Anyway, the only difference between Standard and P4 tuning is that the notes on the two highest strings move a semi tone, the rest of the notes are the same.

So, it's not such a big change, but you need to learn the notes on the fretboard on the two high strings.

I do play more single note stuff than chords, but if I mainly played a lot of chord melody or chordal type playing I would NOT choose P4 tuning.

Or, if you teach or are thinking of teaching guitar, then please, don't use P4.

[Christian Miller]

Anyway, the only difference between Standard and P4 tuning is that the notes on the two highest strings move a semi tone, the rest of the notes are the same.

So, it's not such a big change, but you need to learn the notes on the fretboard on the two high strings.

I do play more single note stuff than chords, but if I mainly played a lot of chord melody or chordal type playing I would NOT choose P4 tuning.

Or, if you teach or are thinking of teaching guitar, then please, don't use P4.

oh good grief I hadn’t even thought of that, that rules is out for many of us.