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Hello All,
I cycle back to shedding material, mostly single note lines of sorts, for months on end, in different keys, tempos, and to various tunes, all with the intention to incorporate that material into my improvisation. However, I'm finding, when I return to just simply playing, as opposed to shedding lines, I can't point to anything and say "Ah, thats inspired by that Joe Pass line I just played the hell out of." But, and this is a big part of my point, I do notice a definite improvement, an improvement, I suspect, greater than that had I not spent months shedding a bunch of etudes into oblivion. Is that how this is supposed to work? Is this how it works for many of you? Maybe I need to let go of this notion that I must hold on to this material more so than I already do, that to do otherwise is wasting my time, and rather allow the stuff to dissolve into my playing, as it were. How many of you can recall an etude you learned 2 years ago and incorporate it, or interpretations of it, at will when playing? How many of you incorporate said material unintentionally? My teacher at times will tell me, if I spend a lot of time internalizing Pat Martino lines I'm going to sound like Pat Martino. If only! Cuz I don't. I guess I don't know what I want and am asking for other people's experiences to help guide me. Thank you.
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12-14-2023 10:56 AM
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Do you remember a news article your read 2 years ago? Can you recite verbatim a poem you had to write an essay on when you were in school? You spent your time with them, learned what you could and moved on.
Also from that one line, it seems like your teacher is holding you back instead of pushing your forward. Studying lines is a tried and true way to learn jazz, everyone did it. Parker, Coltrane, Monk, they ALL studied the records.
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I'm guessing (only guessing) that his teacher was suggesting a "varied diet" of players to steal ideas from, as opposed to just honing in on one.
Though I'm all for deep dives too...
I would absolutely, positively say that listening and internalizing is the number one way to get jazz sounds in your head. Obviously, you might run into some technique needs as well, you know, the whole "brain ahead of the hands" thing. But listening, writing your OWN etudes, internalizing, that's the way.
And you might find eventually when playing "Whoa, that was totally a Grant Green lick," or whatever. The PROCESS is everything...
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Thank you for your reply, and you are right about recalling poetry. Yes, I can recall some poetry that I've committed to memory, or at least could, until I let go of it. News articles, no. But I didn't try to commit that, mostly junk, to anything but the dustbin of history. Lol.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
My teacher's point, and its my fault for not being clear, is to be careful, not to not learn the lines. He wants me to be me is all, and to learn from as many as possible to get there.
But you are right, you spend your time with it, learn it, and move on. I guess what I'm doing is the right thing. But part of me thinks I'm not getting what I should from my time spent. Of course, to a degree thats not for me to decide.
I do think there are players out there who're different. Maybe they are the exception. Maybe they can retain and recall good portions of material for years, and still manage to sound like themselves, and sound good, great even.
I guess, unlike my family who has to listen to me FUBAR greatness for hours on end, I should know, as they are painfully aware, when enough is enough! Lol. Its a tough call though.
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Oooh, no. Learn the lines.
The end goal is not regurgitating note for note lines in real time, but definitely learn the lines.
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I've been shedding etudes for years too, for probably only a dozen tunes. at least 5 keys (the flat side of the circle) and 5 positions. But the thing that makes me remember everything, as well as enables me to use cells derived from them for most tunes is that I invent these etudes myself. I make them up from variations of some Bop devices I like.
I know it sounds like overkill, but I do 60 different etudes (for a single key) for every tune I'm shedding ( that's really only 12 devices taken through 5 different positions). It has (is !) taken me 12 years and I'm still challenged with every new tune I apply this to, mainly because of the "linkages" that need to be learned for certain chord connections in each position. So for me, applying chunks of my devices to improvised situations (mostly between 8 and 32 notes) is never the problem - they're easy to remember because I wrote them - instead the challenge is the way to modify the chunks so they voice lead nicely into each successive chord, particularly for uncommon parts of a progression.
But I hear you when you say you feel you are improving, despite you finding that you are not "plugging" in sections of your etudes into your improvs. Hundreds of hours of playing things in the style of "jazz" not only trains your hands into the right moves, but your ear as well. I suppose the aim is to not simply regurgitate long chains of prefab lines, but to include the occasional short chains (cells) and learn to link them on the fly. This is what the greats were (are) doing.
If you dig Martino, then take a look at his "5 activities", but maybe learn to break them up into smaller chunks and practice mixing them up?
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It's not one thing.... you can only use the melodic ideas you work on... if you have the Technical skills that go with being able to actually play them.
And what's makes those technical skills and the copying and memorization of notated melodic etc...studies and other players material... is working on understanding what your playing. How material works in different contexts.
Which eventually becomes.... playing by ears, playing by theory or anyway "YOU" choose. The single notes become larger phrases and eventually complete sections of improv. You hear complete sections of music, at least you hear and understand.... a starting Reference.
It becomes like Plug and Play with larger sections of music. It usually changes in real time which brings up the other aspect.... Performance skills... jazz performance skill.
It's like you see and hear a chorus or two of a tune....maybe even a memorized chorus and then as the music develops, you adjust to what you play by the live context...
All the great players I've been lucky enough to perform with... All understand what they're doing. Some have the terminology and some just have personal understandings... but they all know what they're playing and the possibilities of where it can go.
So Long BS short.... you need a balanced practice schedule that needs to adjust as you develop your skills.
The better your technical skill... the easier it is to learn new materials and incorporate them into your playing.
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"not to not learn the lines", I wrote. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Ah, confounded by the double negative. Originally Posted by CaptainLemming
"not to not learn the lines", I wrote.
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Well, it is a deep secret still how the mind really works.
Learning a certain thing very well will surely have an impact to what you do next but exactly how?
When learning a language with sentences like "tengo que ir al mercado a comprar papas" doesn't make you think about potatoes all the time.
The phrase is a tool to learn a system and a few words. I guess the same will happen with musical ones.
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12-14-2023, 01:52 PM #11joelf Guest
They come in handy when my chops are down or need honing. And they allow one to use a different part of the brain, and perhaps work 'against one's best qualities' (like if you're primarily an ear/instinctive player such as myself). I try to at least do a warm-up when not too lazy.
But there's a possible trap door: we don't want to do 'recitations'. Better to keep it fresh and in the moment. The chops and memorized passages can be def integrated into that too, and I feel that's the best application.
Once my chops are out of sand I try to harken to Charlie Parker's credo: 'First learn the instrument. Then, forget all that s%%t and play!'...
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Wow, whenever I post here I tell myself I'll personally reply to each reply but then they just start pouring in and almost always with such well thought out advice, observations, etc. that I'm quickly overwhelmed. So thank you all! This forum is truly one of the few real gems on the internet, IMO. Truly.
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This is really interesting. What are the 12 devices? And do you keep it strictly in position notwithstanding fingering difficulties, or is it more that each etude begins with or is based around a particular position? Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Are you just playing etudes like a piece of repertoire and hope that it'll improve your improvisation in a visceral way?
I mean classical musicians shred amazing repertoire on a daily basis all their lives. They do get better at performing the repertoire but I don't think it helps their improvisation skills a bit. Just saying.
Integration of language to improvisation requires a more deliberate and organized work in my experience.
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Listen to a lot of Jazz, sing along. Sing your transcriptions or etudes too.
Aural memory is much longer lasting and faster than the conscious mind
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Right, thats not what Im doing. What I'm finding is that what I am playing, for instance, after a month of etudes, has somehow improved, sometimes remarkably, but also what I am playing somehow does not reflect the etudes I have been working on, in a visceral way. Its just interesting, and at times frustrating, I guess. It makes me ask myself if I am approaching them in the right way, or if my command of the material is sufficient enough to move on. How would I know its time to move on, to seek more material to internalize to whatever degree? So I've posted here to get an understanding of how others process exercises like, as in my case recently, Pat Martino's and some etudes of Joe Pass from his 'style book'. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Well...how many jazz tunes can you play?
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What I understand from this description is that you are playing the etudes like memorized repertoire. Am I missing something? Originally Posted by CaptainLemming
Last edited by Tal_175; 12-14-2023 at 03:30 PM.
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I believe you may be getting at what my teacher tries to pound into my head. That I can't let these explorations detract from my ultimate goal of playing the songs? So we always circle back to a handful of songs. Its cyclic. And each time I play those songs a little better than before. I'm just getting to the point where I don't feel I'm relearning them from scratch every time. Lol. I'm also getting comfortable playing off charts when my memory fails me when playing with someone. But, to answer your question, I don't "know" very many songs, maybe a few dozen. Most still take time to ramp up. So it could be argued I don't really know them then, which is fine, but I will. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thank you for asking.
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I dont think so. I mean, thats what I do at first. First I learn the notes, then play at various tempos with a metronome, then with songs, etc. During this time, yes, I play them as memorized repertoire, if I understand what you mean. But at some point I put aside the books and play the tunes, thinking I'll hear at least vestiges of previous work. It doesn't appear so at present. If it does, its because I'm doing so intentionally, which is not improvisation. Thank you. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Thats what I'm hearing, no pun intended, from people here. Which helps me understand. I am thinking maybe my brain is getting in the way at times by reinterpreting my aural comprehension of stuff. Theres a time for that, and thats not when I'm playing the songs. I need to trust the other modes of comprehension, faster modes more conducive to musicality than conscious thought. Interesting, thank you. Originally Posted by bediles
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A basic skill is the ability to hear a line in your mind and play it instantly.
That comes with time on the instrument.
I think you can accelerate the process to some extent by reading different sorts of things as part of a practice regimen.
Reading heads of tunes counts. So does transcribing or reading transcriptions of solos. I studied classical clarinet (about the same range as guitar) books years ago. Paganini. Lenny Niehus. The original Cardex fakebook. The Real Book. I think the material should always be memorable music, if possible, and it shouldn't be harmonically simple. You don't want all your imagined lines to be all white keys.
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1.hear a line in your mind 2.play it. -> not one single skill. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It is possible to play a line without hearing it. This ability comes from noodling or mindless scale workouts.
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Everybody has their own learning style, but in my experience learning solos (or bits of solos) off the record by ear and internalizing them, modifying them and playing off them is a great way to improve one's improvisational skills and command of the jazz vocabulary.
Reading jazz etudes is good for your sight reading skills. If you buy a bunch of the etude books and keep going through the etudes with a metronome, reading them only once before moving on so you never memorize anything, you'll be amazed at what it does for your reading.
As for sounding like Pat Martino, we should all be so lucky.
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This is one thing I’ve never really done. Not saying I don’t see the value in it, and I think writing etudes might be worth doing too, just haven’t done it. I’ve always worked on pieces, solos, heads and so on.
I suppose in my practice something like a Bach piece is being used effectively as an etude even if that’s not the original purpose. Bop heads and solos usually have an etude like function, but there’s something quite thorough about the idea of an etudes.
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