The benefit of "shedding" written etudes, exercises, etc.

[pamosmusic]

He just kept getting better and better, right to the end.

Hell yeah baby.

To my ear Coltrane’s “boring mathematical” phase lasted for the 4’33 of Giant Steps. And he seems to have worked that whole problem out by the time he got to Countdown, two tracks later.

[Christian Miller]

Good to know all this, thanks.

But please explain to a broken down jazzer WTF 'partimento' is.

Think of it as a type of classical lead sheet designed to help the student develop skill at improvisation and composition.

here’s an example from yours truly

Also, I thought 'gallant' was how a gent acts around the fairer sex...

Yes that’s basically what it meant, music of a light, witty and charming affect.

Today we’d call it classical but the term galant is one the musicians of that time themselves used and went from the late baroque to the early romantic. Think Corelli, Pergolesi, CPE Bach, Haydn, Mozart, early Schubert, Boccherini, Rossini, Guiliani etc.

As opposed to Bach, which has nothing to do with charming the opposite sex haha.

[Tal_175]

Mathematical/logical lines should be played faster and faster until they start sounding good. More creative, surprising and emotive lines should be saved for slower tempos.

Mathematical/logical lines contain less information for the listener to process. So you need to increase the bandwidth to match the (information content)/(second) rate of better constructed lines, Lol.

[Christian Miller]

I might add that historical improv aside I spent my last year of my masters in a project involving a group of young classical musicians at a conservatoire improvising ‘non idiomatically’ - in practice this meant they were incredibly good at inventing contemporary chamber music on the spot. It was interesting to see how differently composers approach improv.

I would say that improv is in rude health in ‘classical’ music.

[pamosmusic]

I would say that improv is in rude health in ‘classical’ music.

I would go so far as to say it’s almost nonexistent on this side of the pond.

Kind of a bummer.

[Tal_175]

I would go so far as to say it’s almost nonexistent on this side of the pond.

Kind of a bummer.

Yeah, the professional classical musicians that I know who have music degrees from good schools wouldn't know where to start when it comes to improvisation in any style. Those who do improvise (some of their friends), do so in other styles of music (that they learned separately from their classical education).

[princeplanet]

Hell yeah baby.

To my ear Coltrane’s “boring mathematical” phase lasted for the 4’33 of Giant Steps. And he seems to have worked that whole problem out by the time he got to Countdown, two tracks later.

Mathematics, or Spirituality? Hmmm...

John Coltrane Draws a Picture Illustrating the Mathematics of Music | Open Culture

[Christian Miller]

I would go so far as to say it’s almost nonexistent on this side of the pond.

Kind of a bummer.

Yeah it has been noted actually - the impression I get is that the American classical conservatoires are more conservative in this regard. However, there are some people out there.

OTOH I don't mean to make out that improvisation is exactly mainstream here. It's not something most wannabe concert pianists toiling away to get the Canon under their fingers might spend time doing, for instance, it's more something that's always come in from new music and early music circles AFAIK - but there does seem to be a strong minority that is getting larger every year.

The interesting thing about Partimento is it directly impacts the common practice era and much music that we think of as the core European canon, including (so I'm told) some Romantic music. In terms of classical guitar people are starting to point out that the early C19 Italian repertoire (Guiliani, Carulli etc) is clearly coming from that (Neapolitan/southern Italian) tradition.

I think there's something in the air. My friend Shirley (who plays on one of my albums, the Balagan Cafe Band) just got a gig teaching improvisation for classical players at the Royal College of Music (Partimento was part of the interview.) It's becoming a thing. But Shirley's been teaching this stuff for years, including at junior RCM for years, making figured bass practical and teaching school age classical musicians about jazz, Middle Eastern music and free improv (including a very young Jacob Collier.)

[Christian Miller]

Anyway a little more related to the thread - John Mortensen talks about 'participating in constructing music'. I love that phrase.

Improvisers and composers both do this, and it's common for people to do both in all areas of music. I'm guessing the vast majority of us have written a few songs and pieces as well as improvise solos to whatever level. Most classical performers neither write nor improvise.

Not every composer writes everything down, not every improviser starts from scratch every night. Some write collaboratively, others prefer to work alone. And so on.

So I think rather than considering a improvisation/composition binary it's helpful to thing about a sliding scale from, say, Sonny Rollins on one end to Richard Strauss at the other. If that makes sense.

[joelf]

Giuiliani etc.

As opposed to Bach, which has nothing to do with charming the opposite sex haha.

Thanks so much.

But he (Giuliani) was a rotten mayor and will thankfully be in jail soon---hopefully along with his overboss---and getting plenty of sex---though not the kind he had in mind.

And charming not needed. Trust me, they'll come to him. (Didn't know the 'opposite sex' had names like 'Bubba')...

[Christian Miller]

Thanks so much.

But he (Giuliani) was a rotten mayor and will thankfully be in jail soon---hopefully along with his overboss---and getting plenty of sex---though not the kind he had in mind.

And charming not needed. Trust me, they'll come to him. (Didn't know the 'opposite sex' had names like 'Bubba')...

Surprisingly good guitar composer though. The lord works in mysterious ways….

[mr. beaumont]

My friend Shirley (who plays on one of my albums, the Balagan Cafe Band) just got a gig teaching improvisation for classical players at the Royal College of Music (Partimento was part of the interview.) It's becoming a thing. But Shirley's been teaching this stuff for years, including at junior RCM for years, making figured bass practical and teaching school age classical musicians about jazz, Middle Eastern music and free improv (including a very young Jacob Collier.)

Finally, I have someone to blame.

[Christian Miller]

I mean to be fair, charming the opposite sex (or the same sex, or whatever floats your boat) is probably a lot easier when you look like the average classical guitarist these days.

HAVE YOU SEEN THESE PEOPLE??

Surely there would be a natural threshold were they learn Lagrima semi competently and never again find enough vertical time to learn a Villa Lobos etude let alone embark upon a fully fledged concert career …

AND YET, THEY DO. They are all beasts.

can’t they leave music for the nerds?

[Christian Miller]

Finally, I have someone to blame.

haha, I’ll make sure to blame Shirley next time I see her. She’ll probably give me the middle finger. It’s ok

Truth is no one is to blame for JC. It takes many enablers.

[mr. beaumont]

There's also that wonderful contingent of creepy guitar dudes too who just love to comment on young female classical guitar players' videos.

Re: Collier, the only reason he bugs me is that I think he's absolutely brilliant and yet he spends his talents on making essentially my least favorite kind of music. It's a me problem.

[Christian Miller]

There's also that wonderful contingent of creepy guitar dudes too who just love to comment on young female classical guitar players' videos.

it is super cringe. But tbf, Brandon Akker gets a lot of comments too. Quite a lot from (I think) straight guys.

Being good looking is pretty much a prerequisite for a concert career now.

[mr. beaumont]

it is super cringe. But tbf, Brandon Akker gets a lot of comments too. Quite a lot from (I think) straight guys.

He is kind of likeable. Can't really pin it down...I think it's because he authentically appears to be enjoying himself playing the guitar.

Like with Julian Lage, dude looks like he's having the absolute best time of his life every time he plays. It's Roy Clark syndrome.

Me, I look like I'm passing a kidney stone.

[Christian Miller]

There's also that wonderful contingent of creepy guitar dudes too who just love to comment on young female classical guitar players' videos.

Re: Collier, the only reason he bugs me is that I think he's absolutely brilliant and yet he spends his talents on making essentially my least favorite kind of music. It's a me problem.

Yeah I don’t know. Tbh I don’t tend to follow his stuff much.

I think there’s a few things at play… I think the intense hype has been problematic.

[Christian Miller]

He is kind of likeable. Can't really pin it down...I think it's because he authentically appears to be enjoying himself playing the guitar.

Like with Julian Lage, dude looks like he's having the absolute best time of his life every time he plays. It's Roy Clark syndrome.

Me, I look like I'm passing a kidney stone.

Yeah he is very likeable. Brandon has probably done more to popularise lute and classical guitar to a new generation than anyone I can think of. He seems to have it dialled in…

But he’s a real guy, and I really need to watch the convo he had with Rob at some point. He also popped up on Nikhil’s partimento podcast, so I need to watch that too. If he starts doing videos about that, well…. He’s a force for good IMO.

[joelf]

Surprisingly good guitar composer though. The lord works in mysterious ways….

I know about the composer and have a book by him. Thanks.

But don't tell me you haven't heard of the unctuous NYC mayor I joked about (to keep from crying)?

[joelf]

On a more serious tip (Christian, et. al.):

Re composing/improvising: Lee Konitz, in a thought-provoking and recommended by me series of interviews with Andy Hamilton (Conversations on the Improviser's Art) called Charlie Parker a 'composer'. He felt that Parker had very specific phrases that he would slot in whole or rearranged in certain spots, say in a blues or standard---or whatever. Konitz was making the respectful observation about a master: Parker had a collection of motifs that he would use, sometimes starting on a different beat or in the inside of a phrase. (Konitz felt that he, Konitz, was more 'intuitive', building a solo from the ground up, and often risky business).

To connect this to the present discussion, this doesn't exactly equate to using etudes in the mix, but there are definitely accomplished improvisers who have some forethought of what they will play when on the spot. And it's no crime---that's why there's practice time apart from gig time.

Sonny Rollins said that he would practice very specific things at home, then try to make his mind blank at the performance. He felt that if he pre-thought a quote or some lick that would fit a chord sequence into a solo it would fall flat. (He tried it). Does this make him a 'purer' improviser than Parker, or Parker a 'prepared player', per Konitz?

I wonder. Geniuses' minds work in all kinds of ways, even in a solitary performance. And, in total contrast to Konitz, Miles Davis in his autobiog wrote that Parker (paraphrasing) was 'outrageous in the way he juxtaposed unrelated phrases (and made them hang together---observation mine), where the average person would try to develop something more logically'.

Youse decide. Me, I come down on the side of taking chances in the moment and especially listening loud to the previous soloist's last phrase to get to go into a different direction than what you worked out at home---or even than what you were about to play before you heard that last phrase.

But do do the etudes and warm-ups. I do. It's like the old joke about the Jewish grandmother, who when asked if chicken soup could really help someone get better, responded 'Couldn't hoit'...

[mr. beaumont]

I dunno, but I definitely feel like Rollins in the sense of if I preplan a line to hit, its almost certainly a train wreck.

Which is NOT to say I don't have pet licks.

[Christian Miller]

I know about the composer and have a book by him. Thanks.

But don't tell me you haven't heard of the unctuous NYC mayor I joked about (to keep from crying)?

Yes, of course.

(Although it’s reasonable to not assume someone from a different country knows who Rudy G is, so fair.)

Otoh - could have strung that out for another five posts, at least, no?

Tbh the pun research alone might have caused me to neglect my family, so maybe it’s a good thing you pulled the ripcord.

[joelf]

(Although it’s reasonable to not assume someone from a different country knows who Rudy G is, so fair.)

I know you're across the pond. Just 'breaking balls'. Hey, I'm from The People's Republic of Brooklyn---and it's a venerable tradition.

So you're now entitled to make a veiled reference to the Royal Family (maybe inbreeding---juicy) or a scandal involving a member of Parliament and a Doberman (Shake and Bake bag optional) and I'll be clueless.

So it's 2-love. Or something...

[joelf]

I dunno, but I definitely feel like Rollins in the sense of if I preplan a line to hit, its almost certainly a train wreck.

Which is NOT to say I don't have pet licks.

It's not a train wreck if your chops are up to it---just maybe predictable and not as off the top as real inspired spontaneity.

Jimmy Raney was pretty planned, but sounded great. Tal had licks, but to me was more off the top. Joe Cohn is always on the edge of an idea---you can see and hear his brain. He can be thrilling to hear or play with as a result. Eddie Diehl had great ears and freshness, and few licks. He was against 'recitations'.

I think it has more to do with looseness and listening to what's happening now than anything else. My least favorite players are those in their own world, or so rude and self-involved as to think their ideas are too happening to deign to listen. This one guy occasionally (thank goodness) came to impromptu afternoon Ari Roland afternoon jams at Fat Cat. Once I was finishing a solo and this aggressive MF stepped on, rather than listened and played off, my last phrase. Just couldn't wait to show how badass and hip he thought he was. And, oddly enough, I can't remember a single note he played, just his ill-mannered ways.

No matter what you practiced at home and think is slick---even if it is slick---it's about the conversation IMO. That supersedes all else. If you can think that way the rhythm section, someone in the audience or like I said the previous soloist can take you to somewhere you haven't been yet.

(Falls off soapbox, stubs toe, yells 'SHHHHIIIITTT!!!')