The benefit of "shedding" written etudes, exercises, etc.

[AllanAllen]

I believe you may be getting at what my teacher tries to pound into my head. That I can't let these explorations detract from my ultimate goal of playing the songs? So we always circle back to a handful of songs. Its cyclic. And each time I play those songs a little better than before. I'm just getting to the point where I don't feel I'm relearning them from scratch every time. Lol. I'm also getting comfortable playing off charts when my memory fails me when playing with someone. But, to answer your question, I don't "know" very many songs, maybe a few dozen. Most still take time to ramp up. So it could be argued I don't really know them then, which is fine, but I will.

Thank you for asking.

If you know a few dozen songs, get a group together and start gigging.

[bediles]

I did some etude work (reading published etudes) when I was first learning and found it useful. Any little language bits you can gleen can be. However, etudes usually are not recorded with a band and you miss out on time feel, tone etc. Depends if you want to go most bang for your buck or what your strenths are.

I wouldn't try to write your own etudes until you have at least reached a good level of competency. May end up being more of an intellectual exercise with less musical benifit than another path. Just focus on copying.

Another important consideration is that everything takes way more time than you think. Something you work on today may not show up for 6 months. No rush, but make sure you're making musical choices in your practice.

[emanresu]

I wouldn't try to write your own etudes until you have at least reached a good level of competency. May end up being more of an intellectual exercise with less musical benifit than another path. Just focus on copying.

Another important consideration is that everything takes way more time than you think. Something you work on today may not show up for 6 months. No rush, but make sure you're making musical choices in your practice.

I disagree with 1st and agree with the 2nd thought.

This is my first etude:

Done without any competence in harmony whatsoever before the first harmony lessons in pre-college. So, it is totally doable.
It took 2 months. Average 4 measures in one 2-hour sitting.
cons: long time to make.
pros: something to post 30 years later.

[AllanAllen]

I disagree with 1st and agree with the 2nd thought.

This is my first etude:

Done without any competence in harmony whatsoever before the first harmony lessons in pre-college. So, it is totally doable.
It took 2 months. Average 4 measures in one 2-hour sitting.
cons: long time to make.
pros: something to post 30 years later.

I did one for Satin Doll last year. I only spent a night on it.

Dropbox - Satin Doll Etude.m4a - Simplify your life

[Tal_175]

I dont think so. I mean, thats what I do at first. First I learn the notes, then play at various tempos with a metronome, then with songs, etc. During this time, yes, I play them as memorized repertoire, if I understand what you mean. But at some point I put aside the books and play the tunes, thinking I'll hear at least vestiges of previous work. It doesn't appear so at present. If it does, its because I'm doing so intentionally, which is not improvisation. Thank you.

You are trying to learn language in other words. What most people do first is to come up with an harmonic organization or adopt another players approach to harmony. Many great players including Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Barry Harris, George Benson shared their harmonic organizations. Then they learn language that they can use with that harmonic organization. In other words, they learn small phrases and understand how those phrases fit within certain harmonic contexts. Then they learn to build new phrases for these harmonic contexts. They analyze, break up and create variations of new vocabulary. They apply these to tunes and progressions, learn to connect them. Eventually these activities develop their ability to hear harmony, add richness to what they can hear in their head, and their ability to play what they hear. That's what I mean by deliberate work. It also requires awareness of harmony and form when you work on lines.

What you seem to be doing is to play long composed etudes and hope to acquire language by osmosis so to speak. There are people who played Bach all their lives but can't improvise a single bar in Bach style (or any style) unless they deliberately worked on improvisation by studying and practicing the building blocks of the style. Now, I could be wrong, maybe this more visceral, osmotic process works for some people. Just memorize and play Pat Martino solos/etudes and eventually you'll solo like him approach. It'd be interesting to see if any of the forum members found success with this approach (without the more deliberate break up, analyze, integrate small pieces at a time type of work).

[joelf]

I mean classical musicians shred amazing repertoire on a daily basis all their lives. They do get better at performing the repertoire but I don't think it helps their improvisation skills a bit. Just saying.

That's a very thought-provoking observation. The great composers were adept at improvising cadenzas, possibly other things too. These were written down in that pre-recordings age. And a tradition seems to have died (I hope I'm wrong about that, maybe it's ongoing under the radar) when players started playing what was written down.

Barry Harris used to maintain that jazz picked up on what classical had started. Not sure of that myself. I'm guessing that improvising has had a long and venerable tradition, probably in every culture, independent of classical. I know it's long been practiced in Africa, India and Asia proper---and who-all knows where else.

It's also been said (by critics of jazz education) that codifying is killing. Well, talent and imagination will out, regardless, and information will only bring it out more.

I guess it's gonna take the modern composers to revive the practice in classical. I'm sure they have, only beyond my personal knowledge...

[bediles]

I disagree with 1st and agree with the 2nd thought.

This is my first etude:

Done without any competence in harmony whatsoever before the first harmony lessons in pre-college. So, it is totally doable.
It took 2 months. Average 4 measures in one 2-hour sitting.
cons: long time to make.
pros: something to post 30 years later.

Sounds great! Not Jazz. I'm not talking about composing I'm talking about avoiding what AllanAllen posted. Isn't the goal to be swangin' and learn/incorporate Jazz language? It's a waste of time to painstakingly write out lines when you don't know what you're doing or have only a small conception of what a line may require (only thinking chord tones on downbeat, for example)

[Christian Miller]

If you know a few dozen songs, get a group together and start gigging.

You know what? I agree with the punk thing.

I’m not saying four chords is jazz, but I do think people should throw themselves into it. Provided you are hungry to improve and willing to take feedback!

[Christian Miller]

Sounds great! Not Jazz. I'm not talking about composing I'm talking about avoiding what AllanAllen posted. Isn't the goal to be swangin' and learn/incorporate Jazz language? It's a waste of time to painstakingly write out lines when you don't know what you're doing or have only a small conception of what a line may require (only thinking chord tones on downbeat, for example)

otoh what makes you think it’s possible to improvise good lines if one can’t compose them?

I don’t necessarily mean score everything before playing it - thought that is a valid exercise in itself. I mean working something out. And etude can be like that too. Put a ii V line through Stella etc.

[Christian Miller]

That's a very thought-provoking observation. The great composers were adept at improvising cadenzas, possibly other things too.

I think people underestimate the off the cuff nature of most classical era music and how much improvisation was part of the music in general. Mozart only wrote keyboard parts out in full for others who couldn’t improvise, like his sister. Today concert pianists play those sketched out parts verbatim.

His compositions like those of all professional composers of his era were written very quickly. As Robert Gjerdingen puts it we’d be hard pressed to copy music as fast as they composed it. Mozart was not in fact unique in this respect, this was the level of professionalism required to pump out an endless stream of works to sate the commercial needs of the gig of being a court or church composer. The canon as we understand it today did not exist.

In this respect it would be better to think of them being similar to film composers or studio musicians than todays ‘serious’ composers.

The line between improv and composition was very grey.

These were written down in that pre-recordings age. And a tradition seems to have died (I hope I'm wrong about that, maybe it's ongoing under the radar) when players started playing what was written down.

Being rediscovered I’m pleased to say. The forums own Rob MacKillop could fill you in…

You may know Robert Levin for instance. But he’s a trailblazer. Increasingly classical musicians are exploring both contemporary and historical improvisation.

one arm of this is the partimento tradition which was a driving factor in the late baroque and classical era out of Naples. Naples was tremendously influential on the Gallant style that dominated C18 Europe.

Barry Harris used to maintain that jazz picked up on what classical had started. Not sure of that myself. I'm guessing that improvising has had a long and venerable tradition, probably in every culture, independent of classical. I know it's long been practiced in Africa, India and Asia proper---and who-all knows where else.

It's also been said (by critics of jazz education) that codifying is killing. Well, talent and imagination will out, regardless, and information will only bring it out more.

I guess it's gonna take the modern composers to revive the practice in classical. I'm sure they have, only beyond my personal knowledge...

Again I should mention Rob. As a lutenist and early guitarist, improv is part of the job description.

Fwiw apparently Barry became aware of partimento from a student and was impressed by it.

[bediles]

otoh what makes you think it’s possible to improvise good lines if one can’t compose them?

I don’t necessarily mean score everything before playing it - thought that is a valid exercise in itself. I mean working something out. And etude can be like that too. Put a ii V line through Stella etc.

If you can't compose lines then you will not be able to improvise them on purpose. For sure, I agree. But without a pretty good grasp of the language already, don't try to make a more expensive Pad Thai at home when there's a perfectly good shop down the street.

That Stella example exercise is good but I'm assuming a beginner/intermediate level, potentially with not a lot of time to practice. Reading through transcriptions with the record if you're lazy or strapped for time, lifting with a wee bit of analysis and just try to copy the players you like. Harder for comping for guitar bc of less examples. This is easier for the classic jazz instruments cause you're transcribing your own instrument mostly, but this is our plight.

If you have something together then maybe exploring thematic development with a ii V line by altering it to fit with the changes is cool and you will learn a ton. Or just popping it over the spots where the original line works, all fair game of course but more left brain.

[emanresu]

In college, I was asked to write down a short solo every week. Write, play. It didn't only help but made it ok.
What it did was to become very obsessed about the notes. Although I was very very bad at soloing, it made them passable at times. When I stopped doing that because overwhelming study requirements, my solos started to sound like vomit again.
Writing down good thoughts - how can this be a bad idea?

[AllanAllen]

You know what? I agree with the punk thing.

I’m not saying four chords is jazz, but I do think people should throw themselves into it. Provided you are hungry to improve and willing to take feedback!

It's the way everyone else did it. And I mean EVERYONE... Wes Montgomery didn't come out of the womb playing octave lines with his thumb, he sucked when he started just like all of us. You gotta pay your dues, and you do that on stage in person.

This, stay in your bedroom until you master the instrument, business is for the birds. Get out there and make a racket, go to jam nights, get a rehearsal band together, play with other people.

[CaptainLemming]

You are trying to learn language in other words. What most people do first is to come up with an harmonic organization or adopt another players approach to harmony. Many great players including Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Barry Harris, George Benson shared their harmonic organizations. Then they learn language that they can use with that harmonic organization. In other words, they learn small phrases and understand how those phrases fit within certain harmonic contexts. Then they learn to build new phrases for these harmonic contexts. They analyze, break up and create variations of new vocabulary. They apply these to tunes and progressions, learn to connect them. Eventually these activities develop their ability to hear harmony, add richness to what they can hear in their head, and their ability to play what they hear. That's what I mean by deliberate work. It also requires awareness of harmony and form when you work on lines.

What you seem to be doing is to play long composed etudes and hope to acquire language by osmosis so to speak. There are people who played Bach all their lives but can't improvise a single bar in Bach style (or any style) unless they deliberately worked on improvisation by studying and practicing the building blocks of the style. Now, I could be wrong, maybe this more visceral, osmotic process works for some people. Just memorize and play Pat Martino solos/etudes and eventually you'll solo like him approach. It'd be interesting to see if any of the forum members found success with this approach (without the more deliberate break up, analyze, integrate small pieces at a time type of work).

I think you got my thinking in a nutshell with a number of these points. I'd add that playing etudes helps me listen too. I can understand whats happening in a recording when I can relate it to something I'm woodshedding. But where this adds richness to what I hear in a recording, it hasn't reached what I hear in my head. By my own estimation I ain't there yet.

More importantly, in my case, perhaps the "just memorize and play it til I own it" approach is not gonna cut it, though it may, as you said, work for others. I think what you said about breaking out smaller ideas and integrating those into various contexts should be my next step. Thank you!

So I wont put this latest batch of etudes down yet. Its great they have so far improved my listening and playing (though not in a directly relatable way) but theres more I can reap from my hard work: more hard work. lol.

I'm in no hurry. I'm going to take these half dozen etudes from Joe Pass, break out ideas, and integrate them into a larger context, maybe over the circle of fifths. Later into the songs from the book. Eventually, to borrow from Emerson, the "solid angularity of facts" on the sheet in front of me will dissipate into a shining groove, and not shining ether.

[bediles]

I think you got my thinking in a nutshell with a number of these points. I'd add that playing etudes helps me listen too. I can understand whats happening in a recording when I can relate it to something I'm woodshedding. But where this adds richness to what I hear in a recording, it hasn't reached what I hear in my head. By my own estimation I ain't there yet.

More importantly, in my case, perhaps the "just memorize and play it til I own it" approach is not gonna cut it, though it may, as you said, work for others. I think what you said about breaking out smaller ideas and integrating those into various contexts should be my next step. Thank you!

So I wont put this latest batch of etudes down yet. Its great they have so far improved my listening and playing (though not in a directly relatable way) but theres more I can reap from my hard work: more hard work. lol.

I'm in no hurry. I'm going to take these half dozen etudes from Joe Pass, break out ideas, and integrate them into a larger context, maybe over the circle of fifths. Later into the songs from the book. Eventually, to borrow from Emerson, the "solid angularity of facts" on the sheet in front of me will dissipate into a shining groove, and not shining ether.

Are these etudes a form filled up entirely with 8th notes? (JP Guitar Style?)

You'd get more out of singing along with the first chorus of Rosetta off For Django and transcribing your singing.

[joelf]

I think people underestimate the off the cuff nature of most classical era music and how much improvisation was part of the music in general. Mozart only wrote keyboard parts out in full for others who couldn’t improvise, like his sister. Today concert pianists play those sketched out parts verbatim.

His compositions like those of all professional composers of his era were written very quickly. As Robert Gjerdingen puts it we’d be hard pressed to copy music as fast as they composed it. Mozart was not in fact unique in this respect, this was the level of professionalism required to pump out an endless stream of works to sate the commercial needs of the gig of being a court or church composer. The canon as we understand it today did not exist.

In this respect it would be better to think of them being similar to film composers or studio musicians than todays ‘serious’ composers.

The line between improv and composition was very grey.



Being rediscovered I’m pleased to say. The forums own Rob MacKillop could fill you in…

You may know Robert Levin for instance. But he’s a trailblazer. Increasingly classical musicians are exploring both contemporary and historical improvisation.

one arm of this is the partimento tradition which was a driving factor in the late baroque and classical era out of Naples. Naples was tremendously influential on the Gallant style that dominated C18 Europe.



Again I should mention Rob. As a lutenist and early guitarist, improv is part of the job description.

Fwiw apparently Barry became aware of partimento from a student and was impressed by it.

Good to know all this, thanks.

But please explain to a broken down jazzer WTF 'partimento' is.

Also, I thought 'gallant' was how a gent acts around the fairer sex...

[princeplanet]

This is really interesting. What are the 12 devices? And do you keep it strictly in position notwithstanding fingering difficulties, or is it more that each etude begins with or is based around a particular position?

Too idiosyncratic and complicated to explain, but basically just a bunch of homespun variations on common Bepop cliches, chromatic embellishment of chord tones (and color tones), BH style half step rules, various other "devices" sequentialized etc that I like the sound of.

For each of them I keep them as close to a chosen position as I can (+ / - 2 or 3 frets for the odd stretch or mini shift). I try to utilise every available note in each position and fit 32 notes in, where I can subdivide in groups of 8, which gives me different starting points from different strings etc. I also try to have an equal number of ascending and descending ideas.

Mind you, I'd never suggest my way of doing things to anyone else! I became a little obsessive with it all, and didn't allow myself enough practice hours to integrate chunks into my "freewheeling" improv. I realise I should have been doing that from the get go. On the other hand, it did enable me to get a lot of my etude stuff pretty much automatic, to the point where I think of a chord in any position and I have 6 ascending ideas and 6 descending ideas I can play starting on any string lasting 8, 16 or 32 notes (tune dependent). The trick is to disguise the way you insert them each time, and that's the hard bit!

[pamosmusic]

good to know all this, thanks.

But please explain to a broken down jazzer wtf 'partimento' is.

stop! Its a trap.

[princeplanet]

I just wanted to add a thought about the "recall" thing.... So, it's been my suspicion for a while that when you listen to the vast archive of recorded works from all the greats, past and present, you always notice a stylistic shift, where the solos played early in the careers had evolved into different forms and ideas every couple of years or so. No doubt, we all crave change, even without the pressure of the changing Jazz landscape threatening to leave you behind .

But there's this other reason for it too, I think, and it's that you can only keep a certain amount of freshly maintained chops in your bag at any one time. As new stuff goes in, old stuff gets either turfed out consciously, or just plain forgotten. Even with someone who surely had a prodigious memory like Parker, if you asked him in 1948 to play Cherokee in the style he did in 1942, he probably could not have done it without needing to shed the same things he did back then, to get the old chops back. Hypothetical, of course, because no one would ever want to go back to the way the were playing years ago, or even one year ago. So maybe what we shed is our current bag, and if we look back to how we sounded 2-3 years earlier (when we were shedding different things), we should probably find some differences. Sometimes to our dismay when we realise we were onto something cool, but let it slip away through lack of maintenance!

I think this is probably a problem for us all, and keeping a record of what we shed is important to those of us that haven't shedded things long enough for them to stick. Or it could just be that some of us have lousier memories than others? Surely you can't be a great Jazz musician without a pretty good memory? Even so, it would need to be at Savant level to remember everything you've ever practiced (and how great would that be? )...

[RickyHolden]

I find that:

copying the work of other jazz guitarists, learning the lines then breaking them down into licks and making my own variations and combinations of them is leading to better music than:

taking e.g. the arpeggios and scales for a given set of chords and trying to improvise with them, which is kind of the aim with learning an etude.


Maybe its the case that using an actual piece of music as a starting point over an etude means that you are starting with something that already has flair, where as etudes don't, so you need to come up with that yourself.

Search up 'jazz guitar solo transcriptions' on you tube for a vast resource of material to work with. I do always make sure though that I know why the player is playing a certain thing at a particular point in a tune than just copying the notes verbatim.

[princeplanet]

I find that:

copying the work of other jazz guitarists, learning the lines then breaking them down into licks and making my own variations and combinations of them is leading to better music than:

taking e.g. the arpeggios and scales for a given set of chords and trying to improvise with them, which is kind of the aim with learning an etude.

Yes, but an etude isn't always just scales and arps, in fact you can compose an etude made up of parts of your favourite transcribed lines. In fact, I'd even argue that doing just that might be one of the best ways to actually integrate "learned lines" into your own playing.

[RickyHolden]

Yes, but an etude isn't always just scales and arps, in fact you can compose an etude made up of parts of your favourite transcribed lines. In fact, I'd even argue that doing just that might be one of the best ways to actually integrate "learned lines" into your own playing.

well its all just music really when it comes down to it, but I've always considered an etude to be something with a logical / mathematical element to it.

[princeplanet]

well its all just music really when it comes down to it, but I've always considered an etude to be something with a logical / mathematical element to it.

Sure, some of my own are just this, but even these can be put to "musical" use as ways to link other phrases. The danger, as you seems aware, is that to over use these "mathematical" links makes you a boring player. Look what happened to Coltrane!

[James W]

Look what happened to Coltrane!

He just kept getting better and better, right to the end.

[pamosmusic]

well its all just music really when it comes down to it, but I've always considered an etude to be something with a logical / mathematical element to it.

Villa Lobos would beg to differ.