Another sight reading inquiry

[Jazz4Four]

Here’s the scenario: I’m a hobbyist who has played on/off for decades. I made a commitment to finally try to play jazz. My goals are to play jazz standards and develop a real voice on the instrument. So far, I’m enjoying this journey, and I’m wondering if practicing sight reading is a worthwhile investment of time.

I’ve read plenty of posts from the pros and semi-pros on here, and fully understand the emphasis that they put on the ability to read for the scenarios in which they find themselves. No doubt that it is a big advantage to be able to read charts.

I aspire to play competent chord melody, and perhaps jam with friends on standards. I’m not going to be “on the bandstand”, and under pressure like some of you guys. I know and enjoy learning theory, understanding what I’m playing, and why.

Basically, it comes down to this: If I get the Levitt book, or sight read the Real Book melodies, how will that help me? Is it worth using practice time for that? I played trumpet when I was a kid so I’m familiar with sight reading, though I haven’t done it in decades, and never on the guitar. I guess the part that irks me about sight reading on guitar is that there are multiple places to play the same note.

[Otterfan]

I can't answer this, but I'll share my experience as an amateur who can read better than most guitarists but worse than most...say...oboists.

Before I start, I'm going to differentiate between just being able to read music (understanding what notes on the staff mean) and being able to sight read music on the guitar (play in tempo from a sheet). Basic reading is pretty important. It sounds like you've got that from your trumpet experience.

I can sight read a simple melodic line (basic eighth note & triplet stuff) reasonably well up the neck to the 12th fret at a moderate tempo. I can sight read common dyads (thirds and fifths) and basic shell chords. I can muddle through reading more complex melodies and chordal things, but not in real time.

That level of sight-reading has brought some benefits:

1. I can read ideas presented by other musicians semi-fluently. This makes getting value out of books and online content easier.
2. Practicing sight reading helps me know instinctively where notes are on the fretboard. I can think "Ab" and go immediately to 2nd string 9th fret without doing any mental calculations.
3. Learning to sight read forced me to work on counting out simple rhythms (I used Louie Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4 For All Instruments).
4. Learning to sight read has helped me get better at "chunking" music into phrases.

Should you learn to sight read? It depends on how much time you have to work on it. I'd prioritize learning by ear, tunes, and technique over reading for sure. If you do decide to work on sight reading, fit it in as an added benefit while working on the other stuff rather than an end unto itself.

[rpjazzguitar]

Depends on your goal. You mention playing jazz standards, but you didn't specify solo guitar vs combo.

For solo guitar, you learn the tunes you want to learn and there's a very good argument in favor of learning them by ear.

But, if you're a combo player, what are you going to do when somebody calls a tune you don't know?

Presumably you can read chord charts which will allow you to comp and solo. (Although reading can lead to improved fingerboard knowledge and a bunch of other advantages -- they didn't stop Wes or Tal from being great without reading).

If you want to take a turn playing melody, well, that's sight reading.

In a lot of situations the guitarist is not expected to read melody.

So, it's personal choice.

[Christian Miller]

Here’s the scenario: I’m a hobbyist who has played on/off for decades. I made a commitment to finally try to play jazz. My goals are to play jazz standards and develop a real voice on the instrument. So far, I’m enjoying this journey, and I’m wondering if practicing sight reading is a worthwhile investment of time.

I’ve read plenty of posts from the pros and semi-pros on here, and fully understand the emphasis that they put on the ability to read for the scenarios in which they find themselves. No doubt that it is a big advantage to be able to read charts.

I aspire to play competent chord melody, and perhaps jam with friends on standards. I’m not going to be “on the bandstand”, and under pressure like some of you guys. I know and enjoy learning theory, understanding what I’m playing, and why.

Basically, it comes down to this: If I get the Levitt book, or sight read the Real Book melodies, how will that help me? Is it worth using practice time for that? I played trumpet when I was a kid so I’m familiar with sight reading, though I haven’t done it in decades, and never on the guitar. I guess the part that irks me about sight reading on guitar is that there are multiple places to play the same note.

I dunno, give it a try and see what happens

I wouldn’t get hung up about the ‘same note note of places things’ it’s equally true whether or not you read the notes or just hear ‘em.

Guitar is stoopid.

[jameslovestal]

Here’s the scenario: I’m a hobbyist who has played on/off for decades. I made a commitment to finally try to play jazz. My goals are to play jazz standards and develop a real voice on the instrument. So far, I’m enjoying this journey, and I’m wondering if practicing sight reading is a worthwhile investment of time.

I’ve read plenty of posts from the pros and semi-pros on here, and fully understand the emphasis that they put on the ability to read for the scenarios in which they find themselves. No doubt that it is a big advantage to be able to read charts.

I aspire to play competent chord melody, and perhaps jam with friends on standards. I’m not going to be “on the bandstand”, and under pressure like some of you guys. I know and enjoy learning theory, understanding what I’m playing, and why.

Basically, it comes down to this: If I get the Levitt book, or sight read the Real Book melodies, how will that help me? Is it worth using practice time for that? I played trumpet when I was a kid so I’m familiar with sight reading, though I haven’t done it in decades, and never on the guitar. I guess the part that irks me about sight reading on guitar is that there are multiple places to play the same note.

I believe it comes down to how one wishes to spend their time and how much time they have to spend. E.g. learning to play jazz standards. Are you able to learn the melody without sight reading? (play in tempo from a sheet). I assume the answer is YES. Do you wish to learn more standards (without slight reading), or improving your ability to sight read?

[Rickco]

the 2 best reasons I finally learned to read was first memory, Im older now and need the sheets even on stuff Ive played by ear for years if only as reminder of changes etc. Although Ive played guitar for 60yrs Im principally a drummer. I wanted to play with the big boys and my playing was good enough but you have to read to play the good stuff. I learned to read charts (for drums) became a big band drummer which stopped during the pandemic. Since I had the time and no one to play drums with I decided to turn my attention back to guitar. Learning to read on guitar has opened a huge world for me that will keep me busy for the future. I started with Frank Vs first lessons (i think its "truefire") even though I could follow the changes it was a great way to start learning to read melodys and simple chords. It also opened the neck for me. Guitar players are notoriously bad or non readers in pop and jazz, the horn players on the other hand are almost always great readers. My favorite gig was a bebop band I played drums with, I dont think my guitar reading will ever be good enough to play bop. Hindsight is 20-20, If I had a do over the first thing Id do was become a great reader, I think without that skill I left a lot "on the table" and it really isnt painfull. I just started reading the melodys of standards I was interested in and now I learn a tune a day. (i also practice reading at the piano, helps visualization on the guitar)

[mr. beaumont]

Leavitt works. It's also not particularly fun.

Sight reading tunes out of a RealBook is great practice. It also works.

[Christian Miller]

It helps when it’s fun to sight read. It does happen. I have to stop myself because otherwise I’d just read new tunes and record them on my DAW all day, and there are in fact other things to do.

Just don’t read Leavitt. Musically negligible (but well organised)

[Christian Miller]

I also think it’s healthy to vary it.

- Sometimes I aim to read accurately, setting the click as slow as I need to
- Sometimes I go for a seat of my pants sight read at tempo, I just need to get through it start to finish and not lose my place.
- Sometimes I read without a click at all
- Sometimes I aim to put something together ‘quick study’ which means I practice bits before recording the song at close to full tempo aiming for a musical performance.
- Sometimes I read through with the track. On YouTube you can set this to .5 or .75 if needed.

[Jazz4Four]

Thanks everyone for the input. I feel like the theme here is that for me reading may confer some benefit, and is worth doing to some extent. But I'm not going to focus on it, which was my original feeling. I'm going to try reading some melodies from the RB and see how it goes.

[rpjazzguitar]

I learned from a Belwin beginner book, Mel Bay 2 and then what I'm recommending here: Colin and Bower Rhythms Complete. Material is old fashioned swing, but it's fun to play. There are chord symbols and maybe some duets (can't recall), so it works with a partner. Play everything and then play it again an octave higher. By the time you're done you can go to the shallower end of the Real Book and progress from there.

[Jazz4Four]

I learned from a Belwin beginner book, Mel Bay 2 and then what I'm recommending here: Colin and Bower Rhythms Complete. Material is old fashioned swing, but it's fun to play. There are chord symbols and maybe some duets (can't recall), so it works with a partner. Play everything and then play it again an octave higher. By the time you're done you can go to the shallower end of the Real Book and progress from there.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm going to try reading some melodies from the RB and see how it goes.

I think based on your goals that's a smart move.

Truthfully, when it comes to reading, you only get good at what you read the most, and for the stuff you're talking about, being able to read a single note melody line on a lead sheet is going to be your bread and butter.

[John A.]

(snip)

I aspire to play competent chord melody

If you want to come up with your own arrangement of a tune whose melody and chords you already know, sight reading is irrelevant to that task. If you want to play someone else's chord-melody arrangements from written charts/scores on the fly you need to be able to sight read (very well). Between those two poles, you'll have a mix of picking things up by ear and reading. The better you read, the easier the reading part will go. But if you're not under time pressure and you hear well, you can get away without sight-reading well (guilty as charged, your honor), or even reading at all.

... and perhaps jam with friends on standards. I’m not going to be “on the bandstand”, and under pressure like some of you guys. I know and enjoy learning theory, understanding what I’m playing, and why.

It depends on the friends and the situations. If your friends bring charts of unfamiliar material to sessions and expect you to play the heads, then you need to be able to sight read. IME, that's not all that common in friendly, living room jam settings (though I do have one friend who does that. WTF, dude? Cut that out). Even less so in amateur-level open jams, where there's usually an emphasis on calling tunes that everyone can play (with chord instruments cheating via ireal if necessary and whoever actually knows the head taking it). As far as theory goes, many people learn enough theory to get by without being able to read at all, let alone sight read, but reading well makes it easier (especially if you're trying to learn theory from books with scored examples).

Basically, it comes down to this: If I get the Levitt book, or sight read the Real Book melodies, how will that help me? Is it worth using practice time for that? I played trumpet when I was a kid so I’m familiar with sight reading, though I haven’t done it in decades, and never on the guitar. I guess the part that irks me about sight reading on guitar is that there are multiple places to play the same note.

I've never used the Levitt book so I can't comment on that. For me, the Real Book(s) is a source for repertoire (along with recordings and other charts). I wish I could sight read better because that would help me learn tunes faster, but as a practical matter it's not that big deal. It might take me a while to learn a complicated tune, but I get by in the jams and gigs I do as mediocre reader. I guess my TL;DR response is that for someone who doesn't have to perform unfamiliar material from scores/charts sight-reading is a nice to have; however reading at some level is a lot closer to being a necessity. FWIW, the multiple-places-to-play-one-note thing on the guitar has always seemed more like a benefit than a problem to me, but I seem to be an exception.

[mr. beaumont]

If you want to come up with your own arrangement of a tune whose melody and chords you already know, sight reading is irrelevant to that task. If you want to play someone else's chord-melody arrangements from written charts/scores on the fly you need to be able to sight read (very well). Between those two poles, you'll have a mix of picking things up by ear and reading. The better you read, the easier the reading part will go. But if you're not under time pressure and you hear well, you can get away without sight-reading well (guilty as charged, your honor), or even reading at all.

True-- I was coming at this one from the viewpoint of wanting to arrange a tune and NOT previously knowing it.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks everyone for the input. I feel like the theme here is that for me reading may confer some benefit, and is worth doing to some extent. But I'm not going to focus on it, which was my original feeling. I'm going to try reading some melodies from the RB and see how it goes.

Yeah also worth drawing the distinction between “reading music” and “sight reading” as we generally conceive of it. You do need to be able to look at a page and (given a moment) work out the melody. Jazz just isn’t a tab kind of scene. It’s probably essential to practice that a bit. Reading some melodies from a real book or aebersold or something. The sight-reading (being able to execute a piece of music at tempo without being familiar) is more of a professional skill and probably not all that important for playing and learning casually.

As an aside … we also tend to underestimate how much good sight readers rely on pattern recognition and (ahem) having already played things before. My old college guitar teacher was a monster reader and I asked him how he did it so well. He was a forty year Air Force guy and was basically like … at this point basically anything someone can hand me will either be something I’ve read before or look like something I’ve read before.

[Rickco]

As a side note Tedesco was a legendary reader, was looking at a chart which was on the stand upside down and immediately started playing it note for note backwards...so the story goes

[Christian Miller]

Yeah also worth drawing the distinction between “reading music” and “sight reading” as we generally conceive of it. You do need to be able to look at a page and (given a moment) work out the melody. Jazz just isn’t a tab kind of scene. It’s probably essential to practice that a bit. Reading some melodies from a real book or aebersold or something. The sight-reading (being able to execute a piece of music at tempo without being familiar) is more of a professional skill and probably not all that important for playing and learning casually.

As an aside … we also tend to underestimate how much good sight readers rely on pattern recognition and (ahem) having already played things before. My old college guitar teacher was a monster reader and I asked him how he did it so well. He was a forty year Air Force guy and was basically like … at this point basically anything someone can hand me will either be something I’ve read before or look like something I’ve read before.

Underrated comment as the kids say

[rpjazzguitar]

This may not be relevant to the OP.

I recommend Colin and Bower because it's graded for reading. The RB is not.

So, at the top of each exercise there's a bit of notation showing a new rhythm. Then you play a piece that uses that rhythm.

A lot of sight reading is based on seeing patterns -- rhythms you already know. So, I think it makes sense to learn that way.

Much later, I used a Lenny Niehaus book which iirc worked the same way.

OTOH, the RB is tunes and there's no substitute for learning tunes

[Jazz4Four]

...multiple-places-to-play-one-note thing on the guitar has always seemed more like a benefit than a problem to me, but I seem to be an exception.

Thx for your comments. I'm thinking of it from a trumpet perspective where it's a 1:1 mapping of note : way to play note. I suppose I just need to accept that guitar will be different...

[Jazz4Four]

Truthfully, when it comes to reading, you only get good at what you read the most, and for the stuff you're talking about, being able to read a single note melody line on a lead sheet is going to be your bread and butter.

Good point—I think I'll be happy if I can read and bang out some melodies when I'm learning a tune. As pamosmusic
and John A alluded to, advanced reading isn't something I'm going to typically need in my musical context.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I mean the way I see it is aside from a professional skill reading improves your access to music and musical information. If you don’t learn some fluency with reading you’ll be stuck with stuff translated into guitar speak.

otoh - if your ears are good it may not be that much of a problem.

If I had to choose, I’d take the latter. But I think reliance on tab deskills guitar players as musicians long term.

[rpjazzguitar]

When I first took up guitar it was to accompany myself singing folk songs.

My teacher started me reading from the first day.

Now, 60 years later, almost everything I do musically came about because I can read.

And there are still some things I can't access because I don't read well enough.

[Jazz4Four]

But I think reliance on tab deskills guitar players as musicians long term.

I pretty much agree with you on this. On one hand, tab is simply another type of notation. If for instance, someone sees a Dm7 chord and knows what m7 means, knows the notes and intervals in the chord, and knows the notes on the guitar, it's less of a big deal. But my feeling is that this isn't the case with a fair amount of guitarists outside of the jazz or classical realm.

[Christian Miller]

I pretty much agree with you on this. On one hand, tab is simply another type of notation. If for instance, someone sees a Dm7 chord and knows what m7 means, knows the notes and intervals in the chord, and knows the notes on the guitar, it's less of a big deal. But my feeling is that this isn't the case with a fair amount of guitarists outside of the jazz or classical realm.

Yeah tab has its uses. But not as a sole source of musical information… notation is the lingua franca of course, a representation of the abstract musical idea, the playing of idea is left up to the player….

And if you heard that idea you’d have the same issues of fretboard duplication. I’m transcribing Holdsworth atm puzzling out where he plays things is not simple but absolutely critical if you want to play it. The tabs out there are not imo reliable either even where they correctly transcribe the pitches… anyway