Another sight reading inquiry

[Reg]

A very useful aspect of being able to sight read, (recognize figures etc..).... is when you play tunes, comping, which is generally what guitarist do... you'll be able play something worth playing. You'll see the rhythms and see and hear the melody so your voicings, lead notes and Chord Patterns... will not just work... but actually help raise the level of the performance.

But .... would also say... get your chops together. Basically all the aspects of playing jazz become mute if you can't play at the tempo etc...

A basic rule of thumb... you should be able to double time any tempo.... your playing. This allows you to be able to subdivide and create feels etc... Playing Guitar is very different from playing trumpet or any single note instrument.

As mentioned above.... learning by ear, just takes too long and you'll find that what you think your hearing or works.... will change as you begin to understand and expand your understandings of what you hear.

[sgosnell]

I think reading music is very much like reading text. We learn to read by sounding out individual letters, and gradually learn to read a word at a time. Eventually we learn to recognize entire sentences. It's done through constant practice, and it takes time to become a really good reader. It has become obvious to me that younger generations have become poorer readers through just listening to videos and recordings instead of reading. You can tell by the inability to distinguish between homonyms, such as "to too two", "their there they're", etc, and by other misspellings. I think it's about the same with reading music, but I must confess that I can seldom read at tempo, and haven't fully made the transition from letters to words. That's almost entirely because of lack of practice. I was taught the notes on a staff in elementary school, and while I know them, I've never made myself become proficient at reading music. Periodically I decide to put in the time, but I just don't follow through for very long. My semi-literacy often irks me, but not enough to make me actually do something about it. OTOH I'm a proficient reader of text, because there was little else to do when I was growing up. No TV, but there were newspapers, and the school had a library full of books, almost all of which I read, probably averaging a book a day during my high school years, and continuing on through college and beyond. I read less now, but once learned, the skill stays forever, I think. I really need to buckle down and really learn to read music. Maybe next week...

[humphreysguitar]

Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Bud Powell, most of the giants could read and read well.

There was an anecdote in the Robin Kelley biography of Monk being very indignant when someone assumed he couldn't read. "You think I can't read??" And he proceeded to demonstrate that he could.

Beyond just reading the notes, you start to visualize the intervals and grasp a better compositional sense of the music.

Try to avoid those jazz scores that don't have key signatures.

[rpjazzguitar]

Jazz has the idea of "paying your dues".

That's real and it's what it takes to read well.

[losaltosjoe]

Here’s the scenario: I’m a hobbyist who has played on/off for decades. I made a commitment to finally try to play jazz. My goals are to play jazz standards and develop a real voice on the instrument. So far, I’m enjoying this journey, and I’m wondering if practicing sight reading is a worthwhile investment of time.

Coincidentally, Rich Severson addressed this question during a recent Live Stream.
His answer: "You need to be able to read enough to learn."
I've included the link below. Skip ahead to 2:06:35.
Good luck in your Jazz journey.

[Jazz4Four]

But .... would also say... get your chops together. Basically all the aspects of playing jazz become mute if you can't play at the tempo etc...

A basic rule of thumb... you should be able to double time any tempo.... your playing. This allows you to be able to subdivide and create feels etc... Playing Guitar is very different from playing trumpet or any single note instrument..

Thanks for the input. I'm going to work on the "double time any tempo" concept. I suppose if you can double time something then you can say you "have it down" more or less...

[Jazz4Four]

I just took the RB and read through the melody line of Satin Doll. To my surprise, it was not agonizing. I actually remember the notes, too!

I can already see some very practical applications with reading even simple melodies; for example, I could play things in various positions on the neck as a way to practice scale fingerings in different keys. It's occurring to me that I've making a big deal out of reading—or lack thereof—and it doesn't have to be a big deal. I'm not sure how far I'll take my reading studies, but this is a start. Thanks again to everyone for all of the feedback.

[emanresu]

There's physical, aural, theoretical, visual, emotional aspects of learning to be a good boy in music. edit: rhythmical - I often forget that one
Of course we tend to become obsessed with what's really needed for us in our little corner. But too often, the neglected
skill will bite our behinds at some point.

Sight-reading is one of those.

[Oscar67]

I learned songs by lifting a needle off of a record or winding back a cassette tape. That was invaluable ear training. To this day I can learn stuff by ear relatively quickly.
I can also read a bit, thanks to several years of organ lessons when I was between 8 and 12 years old. I find it to be a useful skill, but much less so than being able to figure things out by ear. But if I’d been really good at reading, I might have said the opposite.
There’s no way I can sight-read. I get lost if there are sharps or flats in the key, especially when simultaneously getting the rhythm right. My brain just can’t seem to process all that info in real time. I can handle one or max two of those and even then I have to figure it out at a snail’s pace. A piece in Eb, with three flats? Forget it. Four or more? Hopeless. If there are chord symbols for the chords, then that helps a ton.
I’d go the extra maile to get better at it, but I know my limitations.

Interestingly, I can read and understand complex math and immediately grasp what’s going on and what it signifies (the interpretation of it in the sense of physics).

[rpjazzguitar]

I learned songs by lifting a needle off of a record or winding back a cassette tape. That was invaluable ear training. To this day I can learn stuff by ear relatively quickly.
I can also read a bit, thanks to several years of organ lessons when I was between 8 and 12 years old. I find it to be a useful skill, but much less so than being able to figure things out by ear. But if I’d been really good at reading, I might have said the opposite.
There’s no way I can sight-read. I get lost if there are sharps or flats in the key, especially when simultaneously getting the rhythm right. My brain just can’t seem to process all that info in real time. I can handle one or max two of those and even then I have to figure it out at a snail’s pace. A piece in Eb, with three flats? Forget it. Four or more? Hopeless. If there are chord symbols for the chords, then that helps a ton.
I’d go the extra maile to get better at it, but I know my limitations.

Interestingly, I can read and understand complex math and immediately grasp what’s going on and what it signifies (the interpretation of it in the sense of physics).

I wonder what it would be like to do complex math at 240 bpm? Maybe with the meaning of the symbols changing from one problem to the next.

[emanresu]

Heh, lately I have been playing bass for a small brass band.
Two strings missing(vs guitar..), bass clef.
Latest tune had 5 flats, busy notes. The feeling of not being able to play it without
some practice at home is quite bad. Makes me appreciate the skill on guitar a bit more.

[voxo]

Nicas Dream 5 flats...WES.....gets easier more you practise

[sgosnell]

To play in Db you just play in C, but one fret higher. Or in D, one fret lower.

[rpjazzguitar]

You have to get used to it. Db does come up. Gb, rarely. Sometimes the spellings of non-diatonic notes can get confusing.

You rarely see B or F#, thank heaven.

[Jimmy Smith]

Just work at it a little bit. To where you can read simple stuff and figure out the rest not in time. There's no reason to be fluent for your situation. Being a fluent sight reader on guitar takes a massive commitment and it's only necessary for pros who require it for their job.

[Christian Miller]

Just to reiterate what others have said - being musically literate doesn’t mean you can sight read fly shit… the latter comes only with experience and immersion

otoh I see no good reason why everyone can’t be one musically literate enough to understand notation and learn from it.

[rpjazzguitar]

One other point.

Being able to sight read can be a very cool thing.

You get called to play with players who can also read -- often great players.

You get to play music that would not be easily accessible to you, if at all.

It's both challenging and fun to read something for the first time and make it sound good.

You can be the "horn" in a small group.

But, it isn't flipping a switch. You get the basics and then it's a slow climb up the mountain.

My own experience is that I'm a pretty good reader for a guitar player and a poor reader for a pianist or a horn player (I usually say "for a musician"). But that's good enough that I get calls to play in reading-bands with leaders who would call somebody else if reading wasn't necessary. And, if you can handle the blows to your self-esteem, being the worst player in the room may be the fastest way to improve.

And, once your foot is in the door and you get opportunities, your reading gets better and you get more opportunities.

All that said, I would not suggest working on reading if it takes away from whatever work you were planning to do on time-feel. Time feel, I have come to think, is the most important thing and hard to develop.

[Christian Miller]

Time feel while reading is a funny one too

[rpjazzguitar]

Time feel while reading is a funny one too

Interesting point.

I notice that I have to have get an idea of the feel, which goes beyond what is in a typical leadsheet, or even in a big band chart (those quarter note slashes don't say much about feel). I get it from starting sparse and listening to the rhythm section. May only take a few beats. Once I know the chart and remember the feel, it's much easier to get on the next read-through.

And then there's limited brain power. If the chart is difficult to read either because the music is hard or because the chart is defective (blurry, weird pencilled-in remnants of an earlier age, or whatever), it takes so much effort just to know what the part is supposed to be that it can get overwhelming. At that moment, time feel may suffer.

That's what rehearsal is for. But in some situations people want to play new tunes all the time -- and it's about how well you can smooth out an unfamiliar chart on your stand and be playing it 6 seconds later. Horn players and pianists do this all the time.

[Reg]

Yea..part of reading charts is to know what to play that isn’t notated. I mean most of the time playing what’s written out…sucks or is so generic that… let’s say the point of playing jazz usually isn’t just get the notes out.

[Christian Miller]

Yea..part of reading charts is to know what to play that isn’t notated. I mean most of the time playing what’s written out…sucks or is so generic that… let’s say the point of playing jazz usually isn’t just get the notes out.

I would say that’s the point of music. For example, good classical sight readers are reading the phrase, not the dots… and if you learn the piece a thorough mastery of the piece at a technical level is the starting point…

Edwin Gordon (the audiation guy) makes that point in his book… you always have to breathe life into the dots.

So Gordon’s idea was you always have to hear the phrase in your head… which of course is what advanced sight readers do, especially with rhythm even if you can’t quite hear all the pitches.

(Same as improvisers of course.)

In this sense reading is just transcription in reverse… but you do need to add water and season to taste…

I recently did something I haven’t done in ages which was sing in a good level choral concert, where you are expected to take care of the notes and the rehearsal focus is on entirely on shaping and interpretation. It was great to do something like that again and although might sight singing chops aren’t amazing (esp by English choral standards) it’s great to be good enough to be able to participate in such things.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting point.

I notice that I have to have get an idea of the feel, which goes beyond what is in a typical leadsheet, or even in a big band chart (those quarter note slashes don't say much about feel). I get it from starting sparse and listening to the rhythm section. May only take a few beats. Once I know the chart and remember the feel, it's much easier to get on the next read-through.

And then there's limited brain power. If the chart is difficult to read either because the music is hard or because the chart is defective (blurry, weird pencilled-in remnants of an earlier age, or whatever), it takes so much effort just to know what the part is supposed to be that it can get overwhelming. At that moment, time feel may suffer.

That's what rehearsal is for. But in some situations people want to play new tunes all the time -- and it's about how well you can smooth out an unfamiliar chart on your stand and be playing it 6 seconds later. Horn players and pianists do this all the time.

Well that’s all true but i mean from my own practice there can be a tendency to play more ‘on top’ when I’m reading something hard (for me).

You have to get to a point with it where you aren’t stressing about getting the notes right, right? Which takes experience and practice.

[oldane]

I don't sight read. I read slow, but I do read. Apart from reading as a means of communicating music to other musicians, for me musical notation has been a visual counterpart to the music I hear which has helped me often when I wasn't quite sure what I heard. Just like a graph is a visual counterpart to a mathematical expression.

Sure, Erroll Garner, Stuff Smith, Wes, Tal and many other greats didn't read and yet made it to the top. But they posessed ears and talent, I don't have. For me music notation is a helping hand for when my ear fails me.

BTW, Wes more than once spoke of his lack of reading skills as "a downfall", and he seemed almost ashamed of it. In his later records with big orchestras, he had the orchestral parts recorded first and then he came in and played his part hearing the already recorded on earphones. He said he didn't want the studio musisians to sit there idle and wait for him getting his part together.

Tal was once invited in for a studio session but failed because he didn't read so he could only pack up and go home without getting an single note on the recording. He never again tried his luck as a studio musician and apparently it was quite a humiliation for him.

As for tablature, I have never used it and I never will. It's guitar specific, while standard notation is universal for all instruments.

[frabarmus]

For me music notation is a helping hand for when my ear fails me.

Same here. My ear has always been quicker than my eye, which is why I am such a slow reader. As for anything, it takes practice. I should practice more sight reading...
unfortunately it's not "on page 1", when it comes to my list of things to do when practicing guitar...

[Christian Miller]

I think the most famous example of the non reading session player is Glenn Campbell, but his ears were on a whole other level. Hear it once play it back perfectly first time territory.