Correct tuning?

[pauln]

Haha that’s a good one

This reminds me of a story I heard which is often lute builders use paintings for reference when building instruments. However one lute was used as a prop in paintings precisely because it was poorly made and not useful as an actual instrument…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Measure twice, paint once...

[rpjazzguitar]

Temperature changes, as already mentioned,

I noticed this on a gig in February where I was playing with a piano. The piano had been freshly tuned (but was slightly off in absolute terms, to get it to sound together); being in tune with it was a huge challenge for me as I don't normally play with a piano player. There were times I simply had to stop playing because some of the notes in my chord clashed terribly with the notes on the piano in certain keys. A guitarist more experienced with playing with piano would have known how to find pitch ranges that wouldn't have clashed.

Some time back I had a gig at a piano store with a pianist who was playing an acoustic piano. You'd think a piano store would have properly tuned pianos, but who knows? She complained that I sounded out of tune and I have no doubt that she was right. I know that piano tuning (guitar too, to an extent) must compensate for string stiffness to get the octaves right. It's called stretch tuning. So, it makes sense that they might not be in tune. I am probably misunderstanding this.

But, otoh, I've played a lot with electronic piano and there were no complaints.

Which leads me to wonder (for the first time and at an advanced age) whether electronic pianos actually play more in tune.

[sgosnell]

Another common cause of going sharp is strings binding in the nut slots. They slowly get pulled through and go sharp. That's not the only reason, however. I think temperature is the biggest culprit.

[princeplanet]

Ever try this? First get your guitar in tune the way you usually do, then using a chromatic tuner, observe every single note on every single string. Write down the results.

Now pick up another guitar and do the same, and another, and another etc..

Notice a pattern? No? That's because every guitar is different. Every neck is different, in fact every fret is different, some will break to the sharp side, some to the flat. So disregarding the well known limitations of compromised temperament due to the laws of Physics, and despite having just had your guitar "set up" by your favourite tech, there is no way for your guitar to be in tune every where on the finger board (as well as open strings).

As has been suggested, you can try alternate ways to tune, at the 5th or 7th fret for example. Or do as I do, experiment with +/- tunings for each string that yield the best average for what you play and where on the neck you play it. May sound complicated, but not when compared to tuning a piano!

[pauln]

...or 7th fret for example.

Don't use the 7th fret harmonics, the're Pythagorean, not Equal temperament.

[sgosnell]

I don't use the harmonics, but I do usually tune using the 5th fret, because it's near the area where I play most often. I think it gives somewhat better tuning than using the open strings.

[Cunamara]

Another common cause of going sharp is strings binding in the nut slots. They slowly get pulled through and go sharp. That's not the only reason, however. I think temperature is the biggest culprit.

Hmm. I have wondered some thing about this from observation and have suspected that something like this was the case. Interesting to hear someone else voice it. One of my guitars that is troubled the least by this is my Ibanez GB10. It is very good at staying stably in tune and is easy to tune up. I wonder if the combination bone/brass nut binds a little less. I've had that guitar since 1986 so it's also possible that the slots have just worn a little bit and aren't as tight as they used to be.

One of my guitars had a tendency to be difficult on the G string, tending to "pop" sharp while tuning; I was able to solve that with a few strokes with something like 10,000 grit sandpaper from MicroMesh to polish the slot.

I wonder if a proper good quality bone nut is less likely to do this than a plastic nut.

[sgosnell]

I think, but can't prove, that plastic tends to be worse in this because it's softer, and stickier. I almost always see more problems with the D and G strings on 3x3 headstocks, for whatever reason. The angle of the string exiting the back of the nut is usually sharper, which exacerbates binding tendencies, and the distance to the capstan is longer, and this also affects the break angle. I have no experimental data to show how much any of this actually affects binding, other than seeing the D and G to be more of an issue than the other strings in many cases. I tend to use old wound strings to smooth the nut slots, but I'm not certain whether that helps. I don't think it hurts. On a couple of guitars I find the plain treble strings go out of tune more than the wound strings, for whatever reasons, and I suspect temperature is the biggest culprit. They have a larger diameter than the cores of most of the other strings. I also see the bass E change more than the other wound strings except for the D, which shouldn't change much because of the small core diameter. I dunno. It is a puzzlement.

[Jonah]

Normally I tune by 5th fret and sometimes use tuner as reference for absolute pitch.
And then I check it contextually.. I mean hoe the chords and intervals tune being played in turnarounds in different positions.

If the guitar is well-built and well-setup there should not be any serious problems with it.


I never check 'cents' or 'correct' pitch of every not with a tuner... to me it does not make much sense as some deviation will happen anyway.
So the ear is more reliable.

Overall in equal temperament well-built and correctly fretted guitar is not that big a compromise. It is possible to tune it well.




As for 'ring out' - if you tune by ear - you do not distinguish it really, I think. You take the pitch integrally. It is only the tuner that shows that 'jump' between the attack and 'ring out'

[pauln]

Mine came stock in 1988 with the second version of the Wilkinson Roller Nut which is like the first version shown above except the enclosed design for the plain strings is extended to the wound strings; so each individual string goes through a pair of needle bearing rollers (12 in all); one of the pair serves as the nut proper, the other serves as the string tree.
Because the open strings rest on metal, they have the same tone as fretted strings and any motion through the nut is smooth and easy. The locking tuners have progressive height posts so that the entry angle to the back of the nut is approximately the same (like their exits to the finger board side).

Mine's been flawless and trouble free throughout the guitar's 36 year life (about 12K hours of stage performance, plus rehearsals and practice...). Sometimes I wonder why the use of ordinary nuts is still a thing.



There are more modern roller nuts these days that minimize the "Oh my God, what is that!?" first shock impression of what is a truly beautiful thing.

[Cunamara]

That a Fender Jeff Beck signature guitar? I noticed Jeff always used that nut on his guitars until the end of his days.

[pauln]

That a Fender Jeff Beck signature guitar? I noticed Jeff always used that nut on his guitars until the end of his days.

Not a JB sig, just early original version of Strat Plus (ordered it before they showed up at the dealer without having seen or touched one). More here about JB, the Plus, the nut, the Signature...

[Cunamara]

Not a JB sig, just early original version of Strat Plus (ordered it before they showed up at the dealer without having seen or touched one). More here about JB, the Plus, the nut, the Signature...

That was exhaustive- and exhausting- reading. The minutiae of guitar production and collecting is frequently astonishing. Especially in mass produced products where all kinds of variations happen for all kinds of reasons.