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Here’s a video I did justifying our (my?) general uselessness
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09-17-2023 04:11 AM
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I imagine three fundamental approaches to an instrument,
of which each of us probably has some proportionate mix:
"Read & Play" (notation)
"See & Say" (visual/verbal theoretical)
"Hear & Play" (aural/by ear)
Attributes thought good about the piano (that it is visually linear, music theoretically verbally clear, one-to-one key to pitch, etc.) are what make it unduly complicated to me.
I'm very close to pure Hear & Play (aural/by ear), no discernible visual or verbal theoretical with regard to hearing and playing music. I view the piano as making no sense and being extraordinarily difficult (unless reading music), the guitar being conceptually clear and easy (without reading, charts, or theory).
Attributes thought troublesome with the guitar (visually non-linear, verbally theoretically fractured, redundant multiples of pitch generation, etc.) are not even within my horizon - the guitar has always made sense to me.
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I mostly rely on shapes and intervals as I use a symmetrical tuning as a crutch to get by. Its a very logical layout (sacred geometry?!) but one loses the almighty major barre chord everyone knows and loves... anyways its good to know the notes too. With enough persistance I'm sure you can handle the standard tuning's inherit quirkness someday as more than plenty of players already do
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As a jazz pianist I came here many years ago now with the ambition to learn guitar in order to play Bossa Nova and chord melody.
Initially I only learned grips (shapes), but as time went on I tackled learning the fingerboard.
Piano is truly so much easier, but there’s no replacement for recording a rhythmic track on guitar and then improvising on it afterwards. Welcome to the club!
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As a pianist you're the perfect person to give jazzpad (the OP) a real boost. I hope he sees this and comes back to you
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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That's the only right way, and that's exactly how I learned to play guitar. (I also came from piano) Originally Posted by jazzpazz
But I also think I'm the only guitarist on the planet who thinks like that... hahaha
It has a lot of advantages like being able to read fluently and always knowing exactly which notes you are playing, something that cannot be said for all guitarists.
But jokes aside, you don't have to learn "all the notes", just the white keys, i.e. the C major / A minor scale, everything else is derived from it like on the piano.
And as on the piano you don't construct the chords anew every time, after some time you simply know how to play/grip for example C major7 and its inversions like on the keyboard, it becomes completely automatic.
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Shapes are a quick way to access musical expressions on the instrument. But the term "shape" doesn't really give any insight into how a particular guitarist playing that shape is mentally and aurally relating to the content of what they are playing. Guitarists can play shapes with no intervallic, or note awareness which is a quick way to learn the instrument. But you can also use shapes while being aware of not just what's in the shape but what's around it as well.
Bruce Forman talks about this type of thing here (at 22:39):
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At some point... shapes become faster ways to be aware of all the notes and what they can imply. They become on in the same...
By that I mean... the guitar is a repeating 12 fret pattern, (shape). Again at some point you don't need to... be aware in the moment what the names of the notes are... it becomes internal. Kind of like walking etc...
You should still be able to, if you choose verbally or mentally think... or visualize... C E G Bb D F A etc and know C13... Personally... I hear and like shapes because they have a sound depending on where I'm playing. I like jumping all over the neck to have access to those different sounds. Not just the fretboard sound... but different shapes create rhythmic, phrasing and accent sounds. Maybe think of different shapes as creating effects for playing the same chords or lines.
Different shapes definitely help imply different styles.
I'm a believer of knowing what one is playing, including the notes, but at some point.... you've gone through the process enough to know internally what notes are implied by shapes....
If your still constructing chords from being aware of the notes on the fretboard.... you need to do some organizing of how you approach playing the guitar... The guitar is just a larger repeating pattern...
Most use either 5 or 7 positions for internalizing the fretboard.... and eventually you know both or any other approach... because it becomes one repeating pattern of shape.... just like the piano.
Another note... inversions get boring on guitar. When playing solo...
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When you talk about knowing notes are you referring to the actual note or the interval? Your description sounds like you think in shapes and intervals, and the shapes have particular sounds you want to be able to access on a whim? Like for example, do you think of a very basic Cmaj7 arpeggio as CEGB or 1357? I'm not great and I think more in intervals which I guess is similar to thinking in shapes. I know the 1357 Cmaj7 is the same as 1357 Ebmaj7 just 3 frets down and don't have to think about EbGBbD. Maybe this is 6 of one half dozen of the other, but thinking in intervals helps me because it incorporates shapes (which guitar is ideal for) and helps me hear a things that just thinking in terms of notes would not. Ultimately knowing the notes, the intervals, and the shapes will all make us faster thinkers and better improvers...guitar just works so well with shapes and intervals (look how many people can play shapes but have no clue what notes are in that shape). Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Aaron...Both. I like shapes because they give me a different access to styles... sounds. I'm a starting reference 7 position player, in respect that I see, hear and feel the guitar in 7 playing positions that repeat. Originally Posted by AaronMColeman
(just for record... I use all kinds of other positions and fingerings... and jump all over the neck...LOL)
I can use any note or chord in any position or string.... and harmonic or melodic shapes are what I actually hear.
I would say "see"... but I don't really need to look at fretboard. (sometimes I do for effect LOL... give that effect that I'm really serious and into something).
I guess... really shapes are just collections of notes and intervals, that I have internalized... meaning I don't need to go through that labeling process. The other thing.... I play way too many notes, and generally way to fast. There's just no way I could actually see or visualize the actual names of intervals or notes.... There are just too many other aspects of playing also going on.... Form... and how I'm organizing what I'm playing within that Form and how to develop whatever musical relationships I'm using and then being aware of how the ensemble is reacting and interaction.... and even more important..... what's up with the audience LOL. I also like to be aware of where and what the music is doing and trying to remind myself to remember for later... LOL.
I also hate to say this.... but I'm always aware of the theory thing. Which helps me understand what's going on and what musically organized options I have a any given moment. It's not just what's right or where music should go... it's where it actually goes and what I need to do... (all depending on gig etc).
So yea... shapes were, for me just a few steps down the road from notes and intervals.
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