Dominant Chords in Maj/min Progressions

[pamosmusic]

Youre a bad man

Im a very specialized troll, whose only trolling behavior is to bait Christian into derailing threads with long tangents about augmented six chords.

[Reg]

I have a question. I might not be understanding the tremonolgy correctly but in my mind: Foggy Day: Fmaj7 - Ab7 - Gmin7 - C7. So A is a secondary dom of ii… why is it Ab?

(Back in 1998 I did take a year of Jazz Theory in college. Then I had an injury and had to stop playing for a long time. I have almost completely forgotten my jazz thoery. My memory is telling me something about being allowed to flat things. When and what ? IDK … also we did endless boxes, with 4 chords in them and some arrows… but I have no memory of what or where those chords came from).

I just got back in town... sorry for not getting back sooner....

So technically no... A secondary dominant resolves to any Diatonic chord other than I.

As with almost anything you need a reference.... so a possible analysis for Foggy Day is... Key of "F"

So Do you mean Ab7 or A... A7
Ab7 would be a Tritone sub of D7... which could be labeled a Secondary Dom of ..... the dom resolution target of G-7...Right...

There are lot's of possible labels.... but typically most jazz players, arrangers etc... just accept as common practice the use of Dom7th chords resolving and functioning like a V7 I and the use of that Dom chords Tritone sub.

We still think and hear...

Dom chord resolving, (going to) I chord as Dominant "Cadence". Key of "F".... C7 to Fma7

We tend to label other Dom chords going to diatonic chords in Key of "F" other than that I chord... as Dominant "Resolution"
.
Same key of "F". D7 to G-7... which the D7 is a Secondary Dom. with Dom. Res. to G-7... the II-7 chord.

Subbing Ab7 for the D7 still has dominant Resolution. We label that Ab7 as a (tritone) Sub. of the D7..

Another common use of Dom7 chords is .... Extended or Sequential Dom.7th chords With Dom resolution.
Which can by like a Cycle or like circle of 5ths... a dom. cycle Dom7th that resolve to other Dom7ths. Dom7th of a Dom7th F7 to Bb7 to Eb7 to Ab7 etc...


The next step..... we use these common practice musical organizations by expanding single chords to becoming CHORD PATTERNS.

In your example of Foggy Day... that Ab7 going to G-7 might become...

Fmaj7......../ Ab7......./ G-7....

Fma7 ......./ Eb-11 Ab13 Ab-7 / G-7

The Eb-11 Ab13 is using the related II-7 chord any V7 chord ....and the Ab-7 would be using Sub V7 organization with Modal Interchange.... So any chord approaching a Target chord by downward 1/2 step motion Ab-7 to G-7 and using modal interchange to change the Ab7 to Ab-7.

There is also common practice for which chords and extensions, scales etc...that tend to work best musically when based on an analysis.... same applied with which chords and extensions, scales to use etc.... this is a little more complicated, but only with respect to being aware of possibilities and combinations etc...all based on a Musical Reference(s) from an analysis.

[AllanAllen]

Based on my current understanding of chords fitting in keys, in a major key you have the I, ii, iii, VI, V, vi, and vii(o) while in a minor key you would have i, ii(o), III, iv, v, VI and VII available diatonically.

I know that you can substitute some chords like sus2 and sus4 chords into certain slots if they fit into the key or you can do things like replace the diminished chord with a m7b5 chord to alter the sound.

Do dominant chords work the same way as those other examples where you can just substitute them anywhere they fit? Is there a certain mental logic that helps when deciding whether it’s the right time to bust out a dominant chord or not?

I’ve been using the ebook on this forum and it’s just something I’ve been curious about while studying Autumn Leaves

Is nobody going to tell OP that the V already is a dominant seven and the vii should be a m7b5 (half diminished) not fully diminished? Not to mention they should be using harmonic minor.

You guys speaking way over their head.

OP

in a major you have the
I - major7
ii - minor 7
iii - minor 7
IV - major 7
V - dominant 7
vi - minor 7
vii - half diminished, minor 7 flat five (m7b5)

Then you have harmonic minor (flat 3 and flat 6, keep the major 7) I'm going to give a link to that.

Harmonic Minor Scale - Chords - Key and Application | Simplifying Theory

[pamosmusic]

Is nobody going to tell OP that the V already is a dominant seven and the vii should be a m7b5 (half diminished) not fully diminished? Not to mention they should be using harmonic minor.

You guys speaking way over their head.

OP

in a major you have the
I - major7
ii - minor 7
iii - minor 7
IV - major 7
V - dominant 7
vi - minor 7
vii - half diminished, minor 7 flat five (m7b5)

Then you have harmonic minor (flat 3 and flat 6, keep the major 7) I'm going to give a link to that.

Harmonic Minor Scale - Chords - Key and Application | Simplifying Theory

He was listing off the triads, in which case the vii is just diminshed. Fully diminished 7 would be the diminished symbol with “7” after it.

Christian answered by kind of skirting theory entirely and referencing standard tunes that have a lot of different secondary dominants. And in the question about Foggy Day, he was asking about a tritone substitution, so that’s the answer I gave.

Your answer is simpler, but doesn’t answer the question. Those are the diatonic 7th chords. Can you replace those chords with dominants?

[AllanAllen]

Do we know if OP was truly using triads and thus was correct about the vii? If we look at the minor triads, they're not using the right ones for Autumn Leaves, the V chord should be major.

Based on that. I still think OP needs more foundations before messing around with substitutions.

[pamosmusic]

Do we know if OP was truly using triads and thus was correct about the vii? If we look at the minor triads, they're not using the right ones for Autumn Leaves, the V chord should be major.

Based on that. I still think OP needs more foundations before messing around with substitutions.

Not sure he was referencing autumn leaves in that part. I think he was referencing the chords diatonic to the natural minor scale (major scale from the sixth). In which case, he listed them correctly.

Generally speaking Roman numerals alone (I, ii, V, etc) refer to triads, while seventh chords require a little modification (Imaj7, ii-7, V7). Colloquial exception aside, like the way we say two five one.

So to answer your question: no, I’m not sure he was referring to triads but I was using some context.

And yeah … we could all use a little more foundation before talking about substitutions, but here we are.

[AllanAllen]

I guess it's up to OP to clear up.

[Reg]

Yea... jazz can be complicated. And trying to understand and play using traditional Maj/Min functional harmony and traditional contrapuntal practice etc... won't get you there. But not having an understanding won't either.

That's generally why most just copy, trial and error and memorize etc... which also works.

[princeplanet]

I guess it's up to OP to clear up.

Or to clear off...

[ragman1]

Last known sighting 2 weeks ago...

[rpjazzguitar]

Others have explained the theory. I'd offer this.

It usually sounds good to slide into a chord from a half step above. So, if the next chord is G13, you can slide into from Ab13. That's true of most chords. It's also true that the chords aren't necessarily exactly the same construction. So, as has been pointed out, you might like Ab13 sliding into Gm7.

Knowing just that much -- and the fact that the next chord is going to be Gm7, you can experiment with sliding in from Abm7. Also, if you try Ab13, it will work nicely.

Yes, Ab7 is the tritone of D7 and the chords are going around the usual cycle of 5ths, but you don't have to think that way (although it is useful in many situations). You just have to know about sliding in.

The fact that it's a tritone is a pretty good predictor that it will sound good.

The fact that it's a modal interchange maybe less so (unless I'm misunderstanding something). Some interchanges sound good, some, not so much. Feels to me more like a post hoc explanation of a specific chord change than a principle that applies more generally. But, it is useful to know about the interchanges that sound good.

If you can get these sounds in your ears and apply them to different tunes, you're doing great. The theory is supposed to help you find the sounds and apply them in varied situations. It's easy to go down a theory rabbit hole and lose focus on finding the sounds and simple ways to think about them.

Usual caveat: however anybody does this, there's a great player who did it differently.