Making scalar runs jazzy

[CliffR]

I guess scalar lines of any length are not that common in bebop soloing, but they do seem to crop up quite a lot in solo guitar arrangements. For example, they're used a lot in both George Benson's and Herb Ellis\s versions of Tenderly. When I hear them, they sound thrilling and jazzy, but in the transcriptions I've looked at so far, I can't see anything special about the lines that gives them this characteristic. When I play a scalar line, it just sounds like I'm playing a scale. Any advice on what sort of ingredients (chromatics, sequences, phrasing etc) can be incorporated to make these sort of lines sound interesting?

[Christian Miller]

Can you post a specific musical example?

Your OP suggests it’s not a difference that’s reflected in notation, however…

[CliffR]

Sure. The specific example I've been looking at is bar 145 here (not sure how accurate the number system is, but it's the descending run over B7 starting around 5m12s or so):

To be honest, that's not the best example, and I'm struggling to remember what it was I heard recently that best embodies what I'm trying to get, but this is in the ballpark. I've also looked at several Benson licks on All The Things You Are, and there's nothing particularly magical - so far as I can tell - about any given lick, but the totality of it sounds awesome.

Slightly different, but perhaps related? I've been looking at this transcription of Benson's solo over Misty:

The first 8 bars or so are magnificent. But I realised yesterday that taking any one lick out of that is missing a great deal. Much of what makes it so good is the way he states a simple idea and then expands it.

[RLetson]

As I've mentioned in another post, a big chunk of my way into hearing jazz was via Monk, and what I noticed immediately were not only the oddball voicings and harmonies but his time and his phrasing. Nor was Monk my first encounter with jazz--that would have been the Time Out LP, which was all about time signatures and phrasing. I can still hear Joe Morello's drum solo on "Take Five" in my head. About the same time, I first heard Krupa's work on "Sing, Sing, Sing." Then there's "Unsquare Dance". . . .

[CliffR]

Mine too, actually - my Dad had that same album.

[Christian Miller]

Kind of relates to what I was blathering about in the other thread really.

So the Herb example- well you have the classic B Bb A passing tone followed by a twiddle/turn and then a descending scale (which happens to be the E harmonic minor ending on D# the third of the B7) So, the notes are… entirely humdrum and nothing distinctively jazz or especially hip. The phrasing makes it hip and makes it jazz

There’s not a rule book or system to explain this. Playing scales with accented upbeats and so on can help, but ultimately I think the only way to imbibe some of that quality is to sing along and eventually play along with the original.

Anyway that’s the micro scale, and you are also talking about the larger scale, the development of the solo in Benson’s case. Just thinking about note choices over chords can’t help with that stuff. Otoh you need to be comfortable with the mechanics of playing changes and swinging imo before these sorts of things become the playground. (Maybe others disagree here?)

Which I think you’ve well and truly clocked by the sounds of it.

[CliffR]

So, the notes are… entirely humdrum and nothing distinctively jazz or especially hip. The phrasing makes it hip and makes it jazz

I was afraid you were going to say that. And yes, definitely related to the other thread where you and Peter and discussing similar things. I hesitated whether to ask there or start a new thread to avoid muddying the waters over there.

As for the Benson motivic development (although it seems to me a bit too loose for that description): it's pretty obvious in retrospect, but I was pretty happy to notice it yesterday. Seems to be the case for me that I always gain a deeper appreciatio for a piece when I try and play it myself.

[mr. beaumont]

A really cool exercise i saw once (maybe here?) is to loop a chord with a drumbeat, take a phrase that fits the chord, and try starting it on different beats. Eye opening. Can make a line that doesn't have anything necessarily interesting about it's phrasing (i.e. straight 8ths) and make it sound like it does...because phrasing isn't just how you play the notes, but when, and the space between.

[ragman1]

Scalar runs are fine as long as they suit whatever's happening in the solo at the time. Where they sound wrong is when they sound as though the soloist has run out of ideas and is just using going up (and, heaven forbid, down again) because they don't know what else to do. When that happens, forget it.

As for tricks, that's fairly simple. Use patterns, sequences, syncopation, and so on, not just consecutive notes for anything more than a few notes, usually as a connecting device between one chord and another.

Re. your Herb Ellis clip, at about 0.31 he zooms down a mixolydian scale over F7 to get to the B7. Sounds good, like a piano player filling in. Nothing wrong with that; it has meaning and purpose.

I didn't listen to the whole of the George Benson but, at least at the start, he was playing his runs very fast so it didn't matter. And doing it all the time with different runs as part of the feel he was creating at the time. In other words, nothing gratuitous.

So, really the only time they sound lame is when they are lame, like the poor guy doesn't know what else to do. Or simply not playing very well.

I suppose Pat Martino uses scalar sounds a great deal and, to be honest, there are times he comes dangerously close to sounding as though he's just churning them out. But there's something about the way he does them. You could do worse than check out his transcriptions on YouTube. He always breaks them up in some way, it's never just mindlessly up, down, up, down.

Here's one:

[pamosmusic]

I was afraid you were going to say that. And yes, definitely related to the other thread where you and Peter and discussing similar things. I hesitated whether to ask there or start a new thread to avoid muddying the waters over there.

That was very courteous. Especially given how far we were from the topic at hand in the first place.

[rpjazzguitar]

I guess scalar lines of any length are not that common in bebop soloing, but they do seem to crop up quite a lot in solo guitar arrangements. For example, they're used a lot in both George Benson's and Herb Ellis\s versions of Tenderly. When I hear them, they sound thrilling and jazzy, but in the transcriptions I've looked at so far, I can't see anything special about the lines that gives them this characteristic. When I play a scalar line, it just sounds like I'm playing a scale. Any advice on what sort of ingredients (chromatics, sequences, phrasing etc) can be incorporated to make these sort of lines sound interesting?

1. Don't play a line that's a scale in even eighths. Put some rhythm to it. One way is to think of a song you know well and use the rhythm of the melody of that tune. That is, the notes of your scalar line, but a rhythm stolen from some other song.

2. Don't play the scalar line in the key of the background chords. Take a look at that Benson video -- he's sideslipping, playing for example, Bm over Bbm. Just long enough to get your attention, not long enough to sound like a clam.

3. Don't play all the notes of the scale. Leave some out. Or play them in a different order or in different octaves. That is, some notes of the scale in one octave and some other notes in an octave higher.

4. But, most important, I think, is to scat sing a line you like using the scale (if you want to) and then figure out how to play it. That's a very useful thing to be able to do.

[pamosmusic]

So, the notes are… entirely humdrum and nothing distinctively jazz or especially hip. The phrasing makes it hip and makes it jazz

[…]

Anyway that’s the micro scale, and you are also talking about the larger scale, the development of the solo in Benson’s case. Just thinking about note choices over chords can’t help with that stuff. Otoh you need to be comfortable with the mechanics of playing changes and swinging imo before these sorts of things become the playground. (Maybe others disagree here?)

Yeah. And it’s one of those things you probably can’t do without the listening and copying you mention as well. But maybe there are things that can give you the tools. It’s that time feel and authority that make things like that work (in the micro; I guess it’s a little bit shiftier when we’re talking about how they fit into a whole solo).

The time feel and authority has component parts: strong attack, good time, interesting rhythm, stylistic articulation. Those things can be practiced, for sure. Maybe some ideas (not exhaustive, and just spit-balling here):

Strong attack: Scales (since we’re talking about scalar runs) with accent patterns and/or dynamics.

Good time: playing scales in eighth notes (again, since we’re talking about scalar runs) with a metronome and getting further and further from the quarter note click. Clicking one and three, clicking one only, clicking only two or three or four. Clicking once every other measure.

Interesting rhythm: Jeff’s exercise up there. Steal a rhythm from a solo or head or something and displace it like that. Who knows.

Stylistic articulation: Christian mentioned nudging the upbeats when you play a scale. I’m a huge partisan of slurring into downbeats when it’s possible. But there are lots of things like that.

I think all that stuff is important and a lot of it is stuff you can do while you’re getting those fundamentals down.

***** HOWEVER, there is very much a “greater than the sum of its part” character to the whole thing. That’s why the singing lines and listening and playing along is so so important. But the playing along can be really tough, so I really really believe practicing those things as best you can and spending a reasonable (read: “small”) amount of time on it consistently can be a huge help when it comes to executing those ideas. There’s also this weird reciprocal thing where I find it’s easier to hear and distinguish something when I’m able to play it. There’s a bit more give and take with that for me. Then again, that might be just me.

[pamosmusic]

As far as ideas with a scale:

Sequences, intervals, diatonic triads.

You could practice those three things for years and not exhaust the material.

[pamosmusic]

1. Don't play a line that's a scale in even eighths. Put some rhythm to it. One way is to think of a song you know well and use the rhythm of the melody of that tune. That is, the notes of your scalar line, but a rhythm stolen from some other song.

2. Don't play the scalar line in the key of the background chords. Take a look at that Benson video -- he's sideslipping, playing for example, Bm over Bbm. Just long enough to get your attention, not long enough to sound like a clam.

3. Don't play all the notes of the scale. Leave some out. Or play them in a different order or in different octaves. That is, some notes of the scale in one octave and some other notes in an octave higher.

4. But, most important, I think, is to scat sing a line you like using the scale (if you want to) and then figure out how to play it. That's a very useful thing to be able to do.

+1 to all this.

[CliffR]

Thanks all for the great suggestions!

[Christian Miller]

Yeah. And it’s one of those things you probably can’t do without the listening and copying you mention as well. But maybe there are things that can give you the tools. It’s that time feel and authority that make things like that work (in the micro; I guess it’s a little bit shiftier when we’re talking about how they fit into a whole solo).

The time feel and authority has component parts: strong attack, good time, interesting rhythm, stylistic articulation. Those things can be practiced, for sure. Maybe some ideas (not exhaustive, and just spit-balling here):

Strong attack: Scales (since we’re talking about scalar runs) with accent patterns and/or dynamics.

Good time: playing scales in eighth notes (again, since we’re talking about scalar runs) with a metronome and getting further and further from the quarter note click. Clicking one and three, clicking one only, clicking only two or three or four. Clicking once every other measure.

Interesting rhythm: Jeff’s exercise up there. Steal a rhythm from a solo or head or something and displace it like that. Who knows.

Stylistic articulation: Christian mentioned nudging the upbeats when you play a scale. I’m a huge partisan of slurring into downbeats when it’s possible. But there are lots of things like that.

This is not what Herb does interestingly.

To contextualise for others, the slurring into the downbeats thing is a carry over from horn tonguing as it is commonly taught in schools. It’s a good way to practice but jazz phrasing can sometimes slur into the upbeats and we see both with Herb! Chad LB has a whole system based on this. I’m skeptical of it on principle, but it can help with phrasing. His idea is you articulate the downbeat ascending and you articulate the upbeats descending. It’s quite cool and does line up with a few things in jazz. Actual music does not always conform to systems like this but they can be helpful. I’ve found it helpful.

I think it’s widely taught that really you want to sound even as a default and apply accentuation from there. A lot of people tend to not give the upbeat it’s due, so accenting the upbeat can help with this as a corrective exercise. It’s not necessarily how you would want the music to come out.

(Of course, Herb does not play this scale even at all.)

Sometimes you really want to articulate that downbeat. Jazz isn’t all upbeats of course.

I think all that stuff is important and a lot of it is stuff you can do while you’re getting those fundamentals down.

***** HOWEVER, there is very much a “greater than the sum of its part” character to the whole thing. That’s why the singing lines and listening and playing along is so so important. But the playing along can be really tough, so I really really believe practicing those things as best you can and spending a reasonable (read: “small”) amount of time on it consistently can be a huge help when it comes to executing those ideas. There’s also this weird reciprocal thing where I find it’s easier to hear and distinguish something when I’m able to play it. There’s a bit more give and take with that for me. Then again, that might be just me.

yeah I think that’s it. You develop a strong Brain signal as Galper puts it, and provided you have practiced flexibly, your body should do what it needs to get the idea out.

When i transcribe what I play I’m sometimes surprised at how untidy it is compared to what I practice haha

[Christian Miller]

Btw I find djg’s thoughts on articulation very interesting. I hope he posts here.

The way Benson and Herb approach these things are very different. There’s a real personal aspect to these aspects.

[Christian Miller]

1. Don't play a line that's a scale in even eighths. Put some rhythm to it. One way is to think of a song you know well and use the rhythm of the melody of that tune. That is, the notes of your scalar line, but a rhythm stolen from some other song.

2. Don't play the scalar line in the key of the background chords. Take a look at that Benson video -- he's sideslipping, playing for example, Bm over Bbm. Just long enough to get your attention, not long enough to sound like a clam.

3. Don't play all the notes of the scale. Leave some out. Or play them in a different order or in different octaves. That is, some notes of the scale in one octave and some other notes in an octave higher.

4. But, most important, I think, is to scat sing a line you like using the scale (if you want to) and then figure out how to play it. That's a very useful thing to be able to do.

So this is common advice - don’t play stepwise scales. Mix it up, come up with interesting ideas. And it may be a great thing to work on.

The problem with this sort of advice is - well when I started transcribing I was shocked at how many straight stepwise scales there were in jazz and how good they sounded. Cliff has given some examples from masters and there are countless more.

Systems like the one I describe above, advice like ‘don’t double the root’ and so on can be helpful pedagogically, but don’t represent universal truths about the music. In the same way we teach the atom as a sort of mini solar system to children, even though it is of course nothing like that in reality. It’s a simple model that does what is needed at the time.

So if we get beyond that, and acknowledge that stepwise scales sound Mega when Mega players play them (as do most things), we have to focus on the things that make those players sound Mega. That’s less tangible and not something that lends itself to quantitative academic assessment, say, or explanation via text book. It is Tacit rather than Explicit knowledge in Michael Polanyi’s terms.

In plain terms, it seems to me that if you can’t make a scale swing, changing the note order isn’t going to help. The problem is that swinging thing is hard to teach. It’s like learning the accent of a language or something. And that is usually acquired through immersion.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You develop a strong Brain signal as Galper puts it, and provided you have practiced flexibly, your body should do what it needs to get the idea out.

I think you’ve identified the core issues that define how we play and where to focus on improvement. Our goal is to have great ideas and to be able to play them as they sound in our heads. This puts each of us in one of 4 groups.

There are those with great ideas and the chops to play them. There are those with great ideas who don’t have the technical ability to express them. There are those with iron chops who have little to say in their playing. And there are those whose chops and ideas are both less than stellar.

Developing that brain signal is a totally different matter from honing your chops. So some benefit more from listening and learning while others need to find effective practice routines to become better technical players. Some need both in varying proportions. But the goal is the same for all: to have great ideas and to be able to play what you hear in your head.

There are also a few players with simple ideas that sound great when they play them. This is probably more of what I think of as style than it is knowledge or technique. It’s an old joke that when Rubinstein hit middle C, it sounded better than when anybody else did it.

[pamosmusic]

Actual music does not always conform to systems like this but they can be helpful.

Yes. I need to put this in my message signature as a blanket caveat to everything.

In general, I think it helps to have a concept of what a stream of eighths would sound like, but then the obvious comes into play: music isn’t just streams of eighth notes and there are exceptions all over the place etc.

Theres Clarke Terrys thing that is closer to accenting downbeats and still swings. When I pushed a saxophone buddy, he said slur into the downbeats and “bop the top.” But the reason I had to push him was because he kept saying “depends on the line.” Trumpet players in particular have super idiosyncratic articulation. Terry and Freddie Hubbard and Clifford Brown seem like they can make any line sound like anything they won’t with the way they can shape all that stuff.

I guess the big thing that’s important is listening (for your ear) and control (for the instrument). Ive told someone before (and I think it might actually be true) that most of what listeners perceive as rhythmic complexity is just extreme command over a pretty simple set of tools. Parker plays simple subdivisions with just a wild arsenal of accent patterns and creative combinations. Sonny Rollins too, with his syncopations and stuff. Exception proving the rule is maybe someone like Coltrane … looking at a transcription of his makes it obvious how rarely you see really complex rhythms and odd subdivisions elsewhere.

I got the slurring into downbeats thing from a masterclass I went to with Scofield. Some guy asked why his weird lines always sounded like jazz and he said “I slur into downbeats” and the guy asked him how that was possible with all the string changes and stuff and Sco was like “I get what I can and it works fine for me.”

So I like the slurring into downbeats because it does sound like the sound, but it also makes you really really think about an articulation when you’re practicing, which guitar players rarely do. What’s the rhythmic placement? Can I slur it? What do I do if I can’t?

[pamosmusic]

Systems like the one I describe above, advice like ‘don’t double the root’ and so on can be helpful pedagogically, but don’t represent universal truths about the music. In the same way we teach the atom as a sort of mini solar system to children, even though it is of course nothing like that in reality. It’s a simple model that does what is needed at the time.

This is true, but it also acknowledges that it isn’t super helpful to tell fifth graders that “particles” are just Excitations of the Wave.

You have to start somewhere, and I think the scale advice was good. Maybe everyone should put “actual music does not conform to systems like this, but they can be helpful” in their message signature.

Or the site terms and conditions.

[Christian Miller]

This is true, but it also acknowledges that it isn’t super helpful to tell fifth graders that “particles” are just Excitations of the Wave.

I wanted to note here that the common term for this sort of thing btw is ‘lies-to-children’ (Ian Stewart/Jack Cohen via Terry Pratchett) which sounds insulting or negative but actually isn’t.

I do use this term sometimes but it’s not a great one to use if the reader doesn’t know what’s meant by it.

You have to start somewhere, and I think the scale advice was good. Maybe everyone should put “actual music does not conform to systems like this, but they can be helpful” in their message signature.

Or the site terms and conditions.

haha

[CliffR]

“particles” are just Excitations of the Wave.

Sure - that's one way you could look at it

[rpjazzguitar]

Sure. The specific example I've been looking at is bar 145 here (not sure how accurate the number system is, but it's the descending run over B7 starting around 5m12s or so):
.

What he plays over the B7 is more or less a Balt -- with an E natural in addition to the D#. Which is inherently interesting over a B7. So, it's a scale, give or take a note, but it's not vanilla. (EDIT: Christian correctly pointed out that it's an F#, so this is E harmonic minor -- but the point about it being a "note-flurry" still makes sense to me.

Beyond that, to my ear, it serves as what I'll call a note-flurry. The idea is that a particular moment may be served by playing a quick run -- and the number of notes, the timing and the attack may be more critical than the specific notes played. So, it works in context to build excitement.

A common problem I hear (and experienced) is that intermediate players have practiced scales a lot so they play them in solos, possibly to excess. That can be a hard habit to break - my earlier post addressed that. Obviously, they'll sound better if executed with great time feel, but there are practice tools to avoid the problem.

[Christian Miller]

What he plays over the B7 is more or less a Balt -- with an E natural in addition to the D#. Which is inherently interesting over a B7. So, it's a scale, give or take a note, but it's not vanilla.

the bit under discussion



The reading of this line is complicated by the tiresome habit of jazzers being too hip (or some nonsense like that) to write out the key signature on every staff. I find this affectation fantastically annoying, but you do always have to check.


We’re in G, so there’s an F#.

So the scale from the 4/4 bar is

B A G F# E D# C etc

which is E harmonic minor on B7, pretty vanilla. it’s what a baroque composer might do etc as it is the exact situation why the harmonic minor exists at all. (it’s also pretty clear from the tab.)

Which I presume is why Cliff chose it.

(also sounds like that scale to me.)

There are several other examples of diatonic stepwise scales in the transcription.

EDIT I misidentified earlier the passing tone figure in the previous bar, its actually D-Db-C-B which a Barry harris person would recognise as belonging to the D7 dominant scale (bebop/added note). This is usually used on the F#m7b5 (ii) chord.

So in BH terms, Herb is running the D7 down to the third of B7. Standard bebop approach for a minor ii V I that crops up everywhere, whatever you call it. I doubt Herb used those particular terms?

you could and maybe should use it as an exercise in all keys. The move to the voicing at the end is slick too.

Anyway the tl;dr point is - bog standard stepwise scales