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Per the OP, chromatics usually (not always) take the form of enclosures and there are tons of ways those can be formed.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Chromatic half step below a target note.
Chromatic above.
Chromatic above and and below.
Two chromatic half steps above, one below.
And in and on.
Chromatic approach notes coupled with diatonic.
And on and on and on and on.
For the intervals, triads and seventh chords only cover a handful of intervals, so working through scales in diatonic 3rds, 4ths, on up to 7ths and doing different orientations (ascending and descending and alternating and whatnot). So you end up with very different patterns than you’d get just from arpeggios. And they can be used in really lovely ways to highlight harmonies and whatnot.
Love this stuff.
It gets fun when you combine. Like, say, choosing one of those enclosures and putting on the first note of each of those interval skips (or arpeggios, or whatever you’re working on). That kind of thing.
(Thanks for throwing all this in, Mr Smith.)
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07-28-2023 05:45 PM
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Something that can be fun (for me) is to pick an idea like that (leading tone and then jump a third or something), and then take it through a scale to get it under your fingers. Then try and take it through a tune. Leading tone to the root of every chord, then up a third—and over each change. Then leading tone to the third of every chord, then up a third. Then the fifth, seventh, ninth, whatever.
Try to mix up which chord tone you start on off each chord to make a less contrived sounding line.
Anyway … at the end of the day, it’s really good ear training, really good brain work, and *almost* vocabulary (though admittedly not quite).
(Then, of course, pick another idea, rinse, repeat.)
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Hey Allen... well that's part of the problem. Scales, arps, intervals and chromatics... need to imply something.
By that I mean harmony... a scale can imply any numbers of chords as well as arps. etc.
Intervals or larger space between notes also usually implies harmony... and personally chromatic or enclosures also implies a Chord(s).
You can say it doesn't or just us it rhythmically or mechanically and use some other label.... but when the picture get bigger. Longer sections of music, tunes, styles etc... all the notes have harmonic implications. And when you organize those implications... for example, just label the chromatics or enclosures as constant structure or dominant type of structures.
It almost becomes an organization in it's self and needs to be harmonically part of that bigger picture. It's not that complicated....
I use to teach musicians to take the time to voice out solos or melodic lines. You'll make choices and.... then be able to hear those choices. Even without understanding harmony.... your ears will make choices, which will lead to a form of musical organization LOL.
It will make other musicians also hear.
The next step would be to get past the simple Strong weak patterns ... Tonic Dominant thing. The subdominant approach will open many more doors. Allow use of other possible harmony... chords. Which leads to becoming aware of Chord Patterns... which already have harmonic musical organization built in.
The basic concept is ... space is subdivided into smaller sections of space. Which allows more options of organizing that original space.
Take a simple I VI II V..... think of all the options of how to just play chords with in those 2 bars. Which just creates options of how to melodically create relationships and then develop them.
Typically most have difficulties with just being able subdivide etc. Which again comes down to your technical skills development.
Anyway... the original exercises are a useful approach for working on those skills. Go through bert Ligons Connecting Chords or Jerry Cokers book and become aware of Linear Harmony... connection chords which come from different note patterns which have technical names etc... Like chromatics... when they approach upward, the most common label would be Leading tone or when downward... Passing.
And when you start expanding the actual reference or just target chord(s) with Borrowing, modal interchange subs etc... those connecting notes have the possibility of becoming chords or Chord patterns. There are lots of already established terminology and common practice usage. Typically the act of notating these out, as compared to playing them is faster for internal understanding.
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Might I be so bold as to ask you just how much you listen to this type of music? How long have you been listening to bebop? How long have you been playing the guitar? Originally Posted by freud
I ask you these questions because so often the key to good use of your time and resources is knowing what you're doing and what you're doing them for. These are questions that are answered only by you but a big part of the tradition here is establishing a common knowledge among people who can guide you, help you know things that are important and also maybe give some insight into keeping priorities in a productive order.
To that end, many questions of whether exercises will be useful will depend on whether you're ready to tackle certain concepts.
For instance, steady eighth notes: Great idea. I recently completed a 20 week regimen of eighth note treatment over standard harmony forms and one thing that emerged was the importance of hearing a lyrical line and the importance of being able to intuitively negotiate a quarter note based phrase; to know the speed you hear before you fractionalize the harmony with embellishment. Those cats who were there at the start: Parker, Gillespie, Flannagan, Monk, Nichols, Gordon, Young, Konitz, all had incredible lyric swing phrasing that they built the language from. Be patient and at least hear the essential lyric line before or at least while you're learning the affectations. Respect the tree before you start throwing tinsel in every space.
I say this because I really get your exercise. I really get the mystery you're trying to master. And I also know the dangers of students putting the thrill of note flow and confidence in sound line ahead of knowing the melodic purpose of those tools.
Exercises are the ways by which a dedicated student assures mastery of the toolset.
Understanding of the essential bone structure of the music is the way a player distinguishes him/herself from the 'play' and becomes a musician.
I don't know if this fits into your plan, but I'm saying for all the time you spend on the instrument, spend at least that much time listening in depth. Hearing the choices of melody and space they employ in creating something you can decide whether or not is a good solo.
I really think if you do this, many questions will be answered to yourself, on your own terms, and the steps with which you create or employ exercises will become apparent...and relevant.
Be patient. Learn to love the music in the way the musicians love it. Be critical in what you study. Take heavy cues form live musicians making live music. Find your own singing and creative voice and develop your abilities from that personal core.
You'll become a stronger player if you know what you want to say. THAT takes dedication and time.
Just two cents to consider
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Reg, how come your posts are SO good? Sounds like you've got the voice of experience. Always a joy to hear what you add. Originally Posted by Reg
+1.
What he said.
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Putting enclosures into a lot of contexts, even just rote technical ones, like I mentioned putting them through a scale in some form or fashion can be super helpful honestly.
Enclosures are deceptively difficult to execute on guitar because chromatic half steps are deceptively difficult. Like the half step above and below enclosure is pretty simple when you think about it, but in practice it can be really tricky when one of the three notes in on a different string than the others, when the target note is on the first or fourth finger.
So I get a lot of mileage out of that stuff. More than I would’ve thought.
But still … tunes as quickly as possible, chord tones as quickly as possible, etc.
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Thanks Jimmy for your reply.
You asked a few things about me. Well, I'm 40 (so basically I could hang my guitar on the wall) because learning to play at that age is ridiculous. But I've been learning jazz for 8 years (on and off). I had a few teachers but I didn't quite find someone really great. I wasted a lot of time learning scales and playing scales on standards. I wasted a lot of time learning upper structures triads. I've also learned other stupid things. I spent a lot of time learning things that I don't understand and wasn't ready for. I know arpeggios, I know chords, I know the basics of harmony. My weak point is rhythm and sense of rhythm.
I'm about to drop my guitar and give up because I'm doing something wrong and I don't understand what.
I did 3 transcripts but no great results.
And I was about to give up playing because the level of my frustration meant that the guitar began to associate me with something that destroys me mentally. But in the end I decided to go back to the basics. That's why I came up with the exercise I've described here. So the complete basics - playing harmony guide notes 3 and 7, only 8th notes, and chromatic. This is my last attempt to attack the guitar. I won't get anything out of it, I'll give up because it's been 9 years since I've been trying.
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So this is what I mean by trying not to ask too much of a single exercise, and making sure you know what it is you’re practicing.I know arpeggios, I know chords, I know the basics of harmony. My weak point is rhythm and sense of rhythm.
I think you’ve come up with a great exercise, but is it a great exercise for this? Maybe not.
I think the exercise you have would be really good for helping you keep track of where you are in the changes.
But have you tried just working on rhythm? Improvise with chord tones just in half notes and try to make it swing. It won’t by itself; you’ll need dynamics dynamics and accents and a time feel. Try quarter notes, quarter note triplets. Eighth notes.
Have you tried just stealing rhythms from music you like? Take a line from a solo or a bebop head, and steal just the rhythm. Something short at first … one measure maybe. Improvise using just that rhythm, and try to bring the phrasing in with it—the dynamics and accents etc. Squeeze whatever notes you come up with into the rhythm. It’ll be awkward at first but do it for a chorus or three or five. Jazz is a peculiar music and line shape is intimately tied to rhythm. You’ll start to realize that some ideas fit into the rhythm and some things don’t. You’ll play more of the ones that work. It’ll sound better. You’ll pick another rhythm and do the same thing.
If rhythm is the problem … try to make sure you’re working on rhythm. It seems silly to say that, but it takes a long time to dream up exercises that actually address what you want to improve on.
Do you mind if I ask what it means to have done transcriptions? What did you do with them?I did 3 transcripts but no great results.
It’s extremely frustrating and I’m sorry you’ve been struggling. But try to remember that nothing is wasted. If you spent time really working on upper structure triads or whatever, it’ll be there when the other stuff comes together. Waiting for it all is the part that stinks, but playing is fun so try improvising as much as you can. I don’t know. It’ll get there.
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you are probably frustrated that you still feel you haven’t made progress on making music, but please trust me when I say none of that stuff’s a waste in the long run. But focussing on basics is a very smart idea imo. Originally Posted by freud
for what it’s worth I’ve just made a video on this very issue, which will be released next Friday. I’ll give you a sneaky preview (which is to say the link will be only live for a little while so I can schedule it for release, just the way YT works.)
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And this is also tough. I’ve been doing this for a while and I think I would find your exercises to be tricky. Maybe not basic exactly. Again — a really good exercise. But it’s okay to spend time being very very very basic. Originally Posted by freud
Ive been working on some stuff a buddy put together and it’s fascinating and cool but the first thing he recommends doing is playing triad notes over changes in just half notes and I’ve found myself doing that for two weeks. The really really basic stuff is hard enough.
Let basics be basics. Learn the melody of a tune. Play basslines. Shell voicings, four on the floor along with a recording. Whatever.
It’s really easy to expect myself to be at a certain place because of what I’ve worked on, or how long I’ve been playing, or how much I know about music. But that’s a tough place to be because I forget stuff, muscle memory fades, i wasn’t ready for some stuff when I learned it, I’m having a bad day (week, year) whatever.
It also took me a long time to realize that all the musicians I liked and respected have had tough times with their instruments too. I had a rough period where I burned out, didn’t play for three years, and thought I’d quit. Started playing again and felt great. Over the next few months, I had no less than four conversations with friends I’d known a long time who were all going through periods of a month or two where they just weren’t playing. Some of them had been through much longer periods in the past.
Thats all to say that it helps to know that everyone hits a wall and that it’s alright to put the stupid thing down for a day or two if it means you’ll come back to it later. Unless you have a jury coming up, no one is there to rush you.
EDIT: I say this not to suggest you should quit for three years. Just saying that if I’d known everyone around me was also having a hard go from time to time, I wouldn’t have thought I’d quit. I would’ve come back a lot (a lot a lot) sooner, I think.
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Originally Posted by freud
Yea man your way late.... really. But that just means you need to be very organized.
from what you say.... your not even close to trying to play in a jazz style. (don't feel bad.... most aren't).
You need to put a shit load of time into basic guitar technique. If your having difficulty with rhythm etc... you need to get your picking hand together. I can give you a list of daily exercises that will get you up to speed of jazz in about a year. The first month or two will suck.... but after that you'll start to feel better. All the other BS, what to practice etc...
just doesn't mean shit until you can PLAY. Practice schedules also have enjoyable BS... learning tunes, ear training, sight reading and actual playing .... but from what is sounds like, 80-90% of your practice time for a year, (maybe 6 months if your some type of freak... don't count on it... most of us are average)...should be spent on technique.
The good thing.... if you like to play and stay on a schedule, you'll practice more...LOL.
I am and have been a working pro. Started playing gigs when I was in High School...the 60's, with old dudes..LOL
I don't really need to see or hear anything.... I can already hear it...LOL. The material can fit on just a couple pages... but wait there's more.... It's free.
Don't feel bad if your not interested... I don't have anytime already. I only ask that you go through this forum nothing private etc... My only point of ever joining this forum was to help guitarist become better musicians.
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Man … Reg … I’m not sure about all that.Yea man your way late.... really. But that just means you need to be very organized.
from what you say.... your not even close to trying to play in a jazz style. (don't feel bad.... most aren't).
You need to put a shit load of time into basic guitar technique.
It depends on what the goal here is.
If the goal here is to be a working professional in a major market and playing uptempo tunes fluently day in and day out, then you’re probably right. Maybe he’s late.
If the goal here is to enjoy playing, learn the music, play with friends, go to some local jam sessions, play at a restaurant in town, then I just have to disagree with you. There are a lot of ways into this music. Technique is important … but so is a lot of other stuff. And that stuff can be accessed early and often, even while the technique is coming together.
I’m not discounting the value of what you’re saying here. I’m just not sure that’s the way to put it. The stuff you’re describing is stuff I’m still doing and I have a long way to go with it. I’ve been a working musician and teacher and lived in New York and all that good stuff too. It’s rough. But that life isn’t for everyone.
If someone wants to learn, there are dozens of ways to learn and reach goals. Keeping expectations reasonable is super important. But what’s the goal?
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Nice. I usually spend around 30 minutes working on tunes but for technique I can easily go for hours and hours at a time without stopping. Looking forward to more of your posts Originally Posted by Reg
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I've shared this before. I synthesized this compact view from a variety of materials I encountered over the years and my own experience and understanding of voice leading. I have never seen this material presented this way. I find it useful for working on dominant cycles and turnarounds over tunes. It can be seen as a generalization of your exercise. In case you find it helpful.
Voice leading cycle of 5th progressions in a nutshell:
Target: The root
Target suspension:9 -> R
Current chord view: 5 -> 4
Example ascending path: Starting from the root: 1 2 3 5 -> 4 (R) (1235 pattern)
G7 -> C7: G - A - B -D -> C
Example descending path 1: Starting from the root: 1 7 6 5 -> 4 (R) (scale segment)
G7 -> C7: G - F - E -D -> C
Example descending path 2: Starting from the third: 3 1 7 5 -> 4 (R) (arpeggio)
G7 -> C7: G - F - E -D -> C
Target: The third
Target suspension: 4 -> 3
Current chord view: 7->6
Example ascending path1: Starting from the third: 3 5 1 7 -> 6 (arpeggio)
G7 -> C7: B - D - G - F -> E
Example ascending path2: Starting from the root: 1 3 5 7 -> 6 (arpeggio)
G7 -> C7: G - B - D - F -> E
Example descending path1: Starting from the third: 3 2 1 7 -> 6 (scale segment)
G7 -> C7: B - A - G - F -> E
Example descending path2: Starting from the fifth: 5 3 1 7 -> 6 (arpeggio)
G7 -> C7: D - B - G - F -> E
Target: The fifth
Target suspension: 6 -> 5
Current chord view: 9 -> 1
Example ascending path: Starting from the third: 3 5 7 9 -> 1 (arpeggio)
G7 -> C7: B - D - F - A -> G
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Uh oh.
Man … I love me a systematic approach. This looks dangerous.
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Then you might like this. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Really nice systematic way of presentation. I only would put 4 to 3 at the top and I am missing 7th to 1. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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You also need to learn how to practice and what to practice on the guitar.
You have to be very critical of yourself all the time to correct mistakes.
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hey guys!
Thank you so much for your support, tips and all your posts. It's important for me.
I know that there are many people who, like me, go around in circles and can't put it all together.
That's why maybe this thread will turn into a place to share ideas for cool and valuable exercises that bring results? Then more people will benefit and maybe it will help someone?
Thanks again!
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the notion that you just have to grind technique for long enough and then you magically become a jazz player is utterly bizarre. it might work for a "teacher" though who wants to sustain a body of students....
to play jazz music you must become an expert on jazz music. period. everthing else reveals itself in the process. exercises are often worthless if used premptively instead of using them to adress issues when they present themelves. you can practice 3nps scales for years, and if you carry that technique into bebop you will still suck.
can you play a convincing bebop solo on a medium blues using one finger? or one string?
also, if you spell it bepop one more time the ghost of charlie parker will come to haunt you
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Beebob
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Yea... I'm not a baby sitter, sorry. And I did say and always have..... you need to know yourself and your goals, which generally change.
hey dig... it's ok to disagree. And I apologize for using you...But most guitarist have put in... or will put in the time.... and still end not being able to play what they become experts on. And your point about developing a bunch of students to baby sit .... isn't that what most teachers actually do? I'm not saying this is wrong or bad, it's all part of living and enjoying life...
It's not grinding technique and you magically become a jazz player... it's grinding technique so you have the opportunity to become a jazz player. The other stuff is just not that hard.
Generally I give free lessons, and it only takes 1 lesson to give most students what they need to work on to help get where they think they want to get. Most just don't want to do the work...
Tal175's examples..(great start) and many more are and have been available for free... or just buy the books.
You can also just notate out the possibilities yourself... it does get more complex when you start adding more harmonic references. But it only takes a few hours or days, (you'll get much more out of the process doing it yourself)... depending on your notation skills etc... and understanding of traditional and jazz... melodic organizations and development devices.
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Yes, 4-3 suspension is certainly the most fundamental of all (aka guide tones). The presentation orders the target notes as the ascending triad arpeggio (the root, the third and the fifth). Originally Posted by Bop Head
You're right 3-1 (or 7-1 of the target chord) is also a big one (leading note resolution). I vaguely remember having that in the sheet as well at one point. It's been a while since I made it and it may have had different versions. I can add ascending and descending 3-1 examples if there is interest. Or if someone else wants to do it, please go ahead and add it to the thread.
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Bepop should be a genre
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This is a bit of a side topic but very obviously different progressions have different guide tones Originally Posted by Tal_175
classically the fourthwise progs (cycle 4, autumn leaves etc) have always used the 3rd and 7th, possible the 9th. These are so common in jazz these are always assumed to be the strongest ones, but in cases of other chord progressions this is not in fact the case.
7-1 is important and is most often used melodically to end a section. The interesting thing is that this is as true of Charlie Parker as it is of Palestrina almost! Take a look at a head and you will often see the A section (esp the second which ends on a full rather than half cadence) ending with a 6-1 or 7-1 in the melody. A good example is Scrapple or Confirmation).
which is to say these different types of resolutions have a certain linguistic use.
incidentally it struck me that confirmation is a bit of a study in the 4-3 appoggiatura (accented strong beat neighbour tone)
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