Easy Diatonic Standards

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I imagine that must drive real, committed blues players up the wall. It’s perhaps easier to approximate blues, but in terms of the kind of careful, attentive immersion in the recordings and tradition of the music I can’t see it’s that different from learning jazz thoroughly as opposed to approximating it with chord scales etc

[ragman1]

Playing pentatonics doesn't make it blues any more than playing major scales or modes makes it jazz. You're talking about random rock guitarists, not anyone serious about blues. Also, you don't need much knowledge at all to experiment beyond pentatonics. I also know a ton of guys who can play pentatonics and maybe hang in for a blues song or two. It's kind of expected from an average rock guitar player. That's a long way from playing a 3 hour blues set. Maybe I"m repeating what you already know, but your post was kind of contradictory and also kind of cliche guitar forum with the"got bored with pentatonics". That's mostly on you and your own lack of creativity, not the scale(s) itself.

You're preaching to the converted, Dawg. Tell the people who are saying 'Forget simple standards (which is what the OP asked for), play blues with pentatonics!'. Get it?

See, it just proves the point. They head straight for the easy option* but unfortunately you can't play standards with pentatonics. Well, not those kind of standards, anyway.

* I know it's not the easy option done properly. Don't start again.

[Tal_175]

Jazz would have been as easy to approximate as blues by "intermediate guitarists" had the entire history of nearly all jazz recordings and performances were based on the Summertime changes (with minor variations).

[ragman1]

In any case, jazz uses pentatonics differently. As we all know... I think.

The green man will be totally lost.

[ragman1]

Jazz would have been as easy to approximate as blues by "intermediate guitarists" had the entire history of nearly all jazz recordings and performances been based on Summertime changes (with minor variations).

Yup, Am pent will do it :-)

[Christian Miller]

Jazz would have been as easy to approximate as blues by "intermediate guitarists" had the entire history of nearly all jazz recordings and performances were based on Summertime changes (with minor variations).

Or, classic mid 60s Blue Note guitar stuff. A lot of those tunes have jazz moments interspersing often pretty straight blues stuff. There's a reason a lot of people start with Grant Green and some Kenny Burrell tunes. Or Charlie Christian, going back a couple of decades. Again these players can be approximated on that material easier than, say, Joe Pass or Pat Metheny on a standard. Play mostly blues*, drop in the odd II-V-I lick where required. A lot of bird blues heads are structured that way, even.

That's where I'd start.

Not sure what the equivalent is on piano

I think it's a cultural thing... progheads get into jazz and think it's necessarily about fancy stuff

*once you get them out of bending and playing massive vibrato of course, which is easier said than done. I suppose you could make them play heavy flat wounds haha.

[AllanAllen]

You're preaching to the converted, Dawg. Tell the people who are saying 'Forget simple standards (which is what the OP asked for), play blues with pentatonics!'. Get it?

See, it just proves the point. They head straight for the easy option* but unfortunately you can't play standards with pentatonics. Well, not those kind of standards, anyway.

* I know it's not the easy option done properly. Don't start again.

If the guy can't handle a major III in All of Me then I think the problem is the tune is too complex for him right now. So no standard is going to be simple enough at this time, diatonic or not. So to keep the piano player's spirits up, I think they should jam blues. 3 chords at first, then add changes until he's playing a Parker blues no problem, then move to some standards. This is supposed to be fun, and jamming over your technical skills level isn't fun.

Remember, we are talking about jamming with a friend, not what he should study at home. He should be practicing standards at home. Practice is different than jamming with a friend which is different from a gig.

Which brings me to a side question, do you play with other people Ragman? If you aren't you should know, you're good enough to go to a jam.

[ragman1]

It's their decision.

jams

Not for me, but thank you for your comments.

I've played with other people most of my life but I don't miss it now. I lost the lust for the limelight a long time ago. Anyway, I'm not performance fit any more. There is such a thing, you know :-)

[Jimmy Smith]

Well the op is long gone but fortunately we have the thread held down with some rousing discussion.

[AllanAllen]

It's their decision.



Not for me, but thank you for your comments.

I've played with other people most of my life but I don't miss it now. I lost the lust for the limelight a long time ago. Anyway, I'm not performance fit any more. There is such a thing, you know :-)

I guess we just have different goals. If I could get 3 people to show up at my house and play tune after tune I'd be satisfied with that, the limelight is irrelevant.

[RickyHolden]

And chord changes that are closely related … Dm7 G7 C … tend to be easier to navigate than chord changes that have remote relationships … B D7 G Bb7 Eb etc …

Or am I wrong about that?

Yep, someone gets it at least.

[grahambop]

You could play the A section of So What for a couple of hours.

[pamosmusic]

Guy is mid 40s and has an extremely high mental capacity. Straight A student at school. I am perplexed.

Taking a shot in the dark and making some assumptions, but this is super common. I have a handful of standard eye-roll comments—things I say to students basically every lesson. One of them is that music isn’t something you know; it’s something you do.

It’s super common for very smart people to think they can *learn* how to play music. And knowledge is very helpful, but you also have to *practice what you learn.* Meaning that smart folks who pick up theory really quickly, then don’t hear the results they want, move on to more knowledge, rather than sitting with what they know and really working out what it means in practice. Muscle memory and workable technique is just as important as understanding the theory and all that good stuff.

This problem tends to be a little more prevalent among book-smart folks who did well in school and grew accustomed to catching onto things quickly (**glances around room, slowly raises hand**)

So your friend just needs to sit with the easy stuff and listen to a lot of music and copy people he likes and play along with you until it starts sounding a bit more like music. Then on to some (small) new bit of knowledge. Then again, you say you’re perplexed, but I think you’ve arrived at the same conclusion intuitively, or you wouldn’t be hear looking for simple tunes to keep things fun.

Blue bossa might need transposing to A minor to make it white keys only........ yes there will be a black key for the what will be an E7th chord for any pedants. The major 2 5 1 bit is the plan for a first excursion into going out of the main key.

And per usual, I’m happy to be the pedant, but remember Blue Bossa has that remote key modulation in measures 9-12 (Cm up to Db major… or Am up to Bb manor in your case). A good first step away from the kind of turns you’re looking for, but maybe a bit trickier than All of Me or Autumn Leaves.

[pamosmusic]

Also … when I suggest he copy people he likes, I’m not necessarily talking about transcribing.

Do y’all ever play along with recordings? Like — not backing tracks?

Pick a tune where he knows the melody and try playing along with a good recording of it. Sinatra’s Fly Me to the Moon or Chet Bakers Autumn Leaves or something. Don’t make it an exercise, but you’ll both start trying to copy the phrasing of the melody and (thus) copy the vibe. That’ll make him start sounding like jazz more than any theory ever could.

And back when I was learning how to play guitar, there weren’t readily accessible backing tracks for The Thrill Is Gone, so I just played along with the real thing and stepped all over BBs toes. Probably one of the smarter things I ever did, and he didn’t seem to mind.

EDIT: to be clear I’m a huge theory nerd and am not knocking theory. Super important. It just doesn’t do much good if you can’t use it too.

[ragman1]

Ricky -

Thanks. Well, it sounds like your buddy is more of a muso than you. He has 2 instruments. He's on piano and you're on guitar.

One comps (plays the chords) and the other solos. Please don't both bang on chords together.

Googling your question about easy standards always brings up the same list of suspects, most of which have already been mentioned. Jazz isn't easy. I know it's for Xmas but are you sure you want to play jazz tunes? There's the thing about half the secret of success being about aiming your pitch at the right audience. Are simple jazz standards what they want to hear? I assume we're talking parents, so 60 or 70 year-olds.

Don't underestimate them. They might want to hear some rock n roll. I'm serious.

And, if you're in your 40's then by 'kids' I suppose you mean 20-somethings. I wouldn't know what they're listening to these days, something ghastly! Or do you mean their kids? Lord help us.

It's almost impossible to answer your question, you know. I'm amazed the two of you can't just use your brains and get something together. There are sites about songs with 'easy chords' on them. I mean, look around. It's not too late to order a book or two, either. They definitely exist.

By the way, if you do get something together, I really meant what I said about rhythm. Swing's got to swing, rock's got to rock, etc. If it doesn't it's dead, believe me.

But I wish you luck. And I'm not poo-pooing blues, by the way. A bluesy number always goes down a treat. Keep it simple. You might need to get an Xmas song or two together too. They're usually pretty easy to play. Silent Night is always popular. Dead simple in C.

[pamosmusic]

Ah, sorry to be a pedant back to u, yeh that B-flat key change was what I meant by 'the major 251'. Its cool my ability to communicate about music in commonly understood terminology is seemingly lacking.

Ohhh oops, no your communication was fine. I misread it.

I see your pedantry, and accept it.

[ragman1]

I mean what can be so hard about this?

You'd be amazed.

- bass and drum backing track goes on, he has to to what 2 stabs of a 7th chord per bar whist I do the tune and bust out a few smooth solos, then I do the chords for a bit whilst he does some right hand only piano solos.

That doesn't sound very green to me.

Crowd aren't gonna know what's hit them!

Let's hope so.

[ragman1]

I guess we just have different goals. If I could get 3 people to show up at my house and play tune after tune I'd be satisfied with that, the limelight is irrelevant.

I wasn't talking about cosy sessions at home, I was talking about being on a stage.

[DawgBone]

I got lost on the diatonic vs tonal part of the discussion.

Diatonic="of the key". I understand that much.

Tonal means what though?

[pamosmusic]

I got lost on the diatonic vs tonal part of the discussion.

Diatonic="of the key". I understand that much.

Tonal means what though?

Tonal means that it still functions with normal harmonic relationships and a discernible key center.

Giant Steps is tonal in its round about way.

But a better example might be something like All the Things You Are … starts in Ab, goes to Eb, remote key modulation to G, goes back to Ab with some unusual harmonies, but finally ends in Ab.

Or something like Corcovado with a lot of round about chord changes and implied key changes and whatnot but it ends on a big old C major and is more or less in that key in a weird way.

So you could have unusual tunes like that that are pretty chromatic and tricky, but are also functional and have a key center.

So What on the other hand is perfectly diatonic, but not tonal. The harmony isn’t functional in that way.

EDIT: you could also draw a distinction between tonal and functional. In which case you could probably say something like Maiden Voyage, is tonal but not functional. A lot of the time you’ll hear jazz dudes talk about “non functional” tunes to distinguish between functional harmony like All the Things, a modal or otherwise non traditionally tonal tune like Maiden Voyage, and free or atonal music like Ayler and late Coltrane.

[pamosmusic]

Actually Blues is a great example. Blues music is often tonal but not diatonic. A blues in A has a clear tonal center and the chords function as you might expect, and the form cycles back repeatedly to the tonic. Substitutions in jazz and bird blueses can serve to make the tonal functions more explicit.

But improvisations are often very deliberately not diatonic. Mixing of minor and major and blue notes and stuff like that. Tonal, but not diatonic.

EDIT: theoretically blues is a great example; in practice it’s a little reductive probably to call it “tonal.” Little different, I suppose.

[pamosmusic]

Christian will be around shortly to correct any major mistakes I’ve made in this summary.

[DawgBone]

Tonal means that it still functions with normal harmonic relationships and a discernible key center.

Giant Steps is tonal in its round about way.

But a better example might be something like All the Things You Are … starts in Ab, goes to Eb, remote key modulation to G, goes back to Ab with some unusual harmonies, but finally ends in Ab.

Or something like Corcovado with a lot of round about chord changes and implied key changes and whatnot but it ends on a big old C major and is more or less in that key in a weird way.

So you could have unusual tunes like that that are pretty chromatic and tricky, but are also functional and have a key center.

So What on the other hand is perfectly diatonic, but not tonal. The harmony isn’t functional in that way.

So tonal just means it goes beyond the use of diatonic/chords of a key? Am I getting that right? That it is using chords NOT related to a given piece's key center? I understand chords of a key. I understand the basics of how to use chord substitutions drawn from the chords in that key. So then what is the composer using to draw his chords from in a tonal piece? A temporary key center and/or melody? Whimsy? Are his choices still diatonic to the key that is modulated into or are we going beyond that also? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this without sounding like a musically uneducated blues player. Whoops too late, lol.

[DawgBone]

Actually Blues is a great example. Blues music is often tonal but not diatonic. A blues in A has a clear tonal center and the chords function as you might expect, and the form cycles back repeatedly to the tonic. Substitutions in jazz and bird blueses can serve to make the tonal functions more explicit.

But improvisations are often very deliberately not diatonic. Mixing of minor and major and blue notes and stuff like that. Tonal, but not diatonic.

EDIT: theoretically blues is a great example; in practice it’s a little reductive probably to call it “tonal.” Little different, I suppose.

Is blues not fully diatonic because of the dom7 in the I and IV chords instead of just the V? I'm getting lost because a lot of blues will do that but still retain other chords in that key, like I-vi-ii-V for example with a bridge going to a IV dom 7 chord? My theory is weak....

[pamosmusic]

So tonal just means it goes beyond the use of diatonic/chords of a key? Am I getting that right? That it is using chords NOT related to a given piece's key center? I understand chords of a key. I understand the basics of how to use chord substitutions drawn from the chords in that key. So then what is the composer using to draw his chords from in a tonal piece? A temporary key center and/or melody? Whimsy? Are his choices still diatonic to the key that is modulated into or are we going beyond that also? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this without sounding like a musically uneducated blues player. Whoops too late, lol.

Yeah it’s not a super useful term in popular music because probably 95% of everything is tonal. Tonal can be something riddled with non diatonic chords but that still function in the normal, Rest Tension Resolution way of diatonic harmony. So it could be something simple like All of Me with secondary dominants or something complex like Giant Steps changes, so long as the purpose is to leave a tonal center, move through chords in a logical way, and land back on the tonal center. That’s kind of a rough way of describing it but hopefully helpful?

So What is not really a tonal tune because the chords don’t “function” … D minor just exists for a while, then it goes to Eb minor which just exists for a while.