Any recommendations on books that talk about motif development for coherent ideas?

[lukatherknopfler]

Any recommendations on jazz books that talk about motif development for coherent ideas in improvisation?

[rpjazzguitar]

Mark Levine's Jazz Theory has some relevant material. Helps to be able to read a bit on piano, because that's the way the examples are written out.

[Bop Head]

I recently looked into the dissertation of Kenny Barrons brother Bill and found it really interesting.

[Jimmy blue note]

Some good books out there for sure.
There are some techniques that are fundamental to western classical music and in particular the construction of Sonata Form.
Here's a smattering of some things that can give you a nice feel for motific or thematic development that are the staples of Sonata form:
What is Thematic Transformation in Music?

To define thematic transformation in music, it is important to first define theme in music. A theme, which can also often be referred to as a leitmotif, is a particular melody that helps construct the entire work that surrounds it. A theme consists of the basic constructive features (chords, bass, melody, and phrase structure) along with the elements which help characterize the piece (instrumentation, dynamics, meter, mode, rhythm, tempo, and texture). A leitmotif, especially in the case of works like operas, may include actual words; a theme in music, however, specifically refers to the instrumentals.
Thematic transformation, also known as thematic development, can help a composer demonstrate a shift in the emotional tone of the music in multiple different ways through structural changes in the music.
Thematic Transformation vs. Developing Variation

Musically, there is a difference between thematic transformation and the development of variation in a work. Developing variation often changes a basic constructive feature of a melody and one or more characterizing elements. Thematic transformation, on the other hand, will alter the base melody entirely in some way. Additionally, variation tends to be more ornamental. In other words, it elaborates on the existing melody but does not inherently change the core elements.


Transposition in music refers to the lowering or raising of the pitch by a consistent interval, meaning the relationship between individual notes has not changed even as the pitch has. A work may be transposed to adjust the pitch for the sake of the singer performing the piece. Similarly, a piece may need to be transposed to adjust the work for the addition or substitution of an instrument. The impact transposition has on the music and its reception by the audience will depend on many factors, including whether the pitch was raised or lowered, and which instruments or singers are being added or changed to the piece. For example, a theme played on a flute (high pitch) that is then repeated later on a bassoon (low pitch) will likely result in the audience perceiving an emotional shift from happy and light to more somber and serious.

Modulation







Modulation is a form of transformation where the melody undergoes a key change. Modulation can occur in many forms from very brief changes in key to entire chains of modulation that lead from one starting key and, by the end, to a very distant key.
For a key change, there typically needs to be a pivot-chord, or time within the piece for the shift to occur. Oftentimes this shift will take at least one musical phrase to accomplish.

Inversion

An inversion is the creation of a mirror image of the original melody by having a second musical line move in opposition to the original. In other words, If the original theme goes up, the new line will go down by the same interval. For example, a rise in the original melody would be paired with a fall in its inverted counterpart. Inverted pieces may not retain the same pitch at the start or end of the piece as the original.
_____

_____
Retrograde

Considered another type of inversion, the retrograde form of thematic transformation reverses the melody, like a mirror image created on a vertical axis.




Once you begin to think this way, you can have the structural appreciation of a musical idea, a part of the head, or an idea thrown to you with the ending of the previous solo, a favourite catchy hook or small musical idea that is ripe for development (you'll learn to recognize a good idea, and not to miss the opportunity to extend it or develop it if you choose.) Development process can also include being master of ornamentation (passing notes, approach notes, syncopation, enclosures, exiting notes, truncating a phrase, octave transposition) and all sorts of other great melodic ideas that, once you make them part of your working lexicon, you can use them as part of your own personal vocabulary.

I find it's really helpful for me to listen to music that is thoughtfully organized this way, whether it's Mozart or Sonny Rollins, Bach or Jim Hall. The compositional sensibility is something you bring to the game on your own terms.
A lot of improvisors don't think this way and it's certainly not a necessary ability, but once you can hear it in other composers (including soloists), it becomes a powerful way to build a real work of musical narrative and story in your playing.
It's also really helpful for me to assimilate these approaches a little at a time, and to write small etudes for yourself over changes that are known to you. That's a GREAT way to develop mastery; sharpen your awareness of options, then bring it to the real time realm.
Good for you for being interested!

[lukatherknopfler]

Some good books out there for sure.
There are some techniques that are fundamental to western classical music and in particular the construction of Sonata Form.
Here's a smattering of some things that can give you a nice feel for motific or thematic development that are the staples of Sonata form:
What is Thematic Transformation in Music?

To define thematic transformation in music, it is important to first define theme in music. A theme, which can also often be referred to as a leitmotif, is a particular melody that helps construct the entire work that surrounds it. A theme consists of the basic constructive features (chords, bass, melody, and phrase structure) along with the elements which help characterize the piece (instrumentation, dynamics, meter, mode, rhythm, tempo, and texture). A leitmotif, especially in the case of works like operas, may include actual words; a theme in music, however, specifically refers to the instrumentals.
Thematic transformation, also known as thematic development, can help a composer demonstrate a shift in the emotional tone of the music in multiple different ways through structural changes in the music.
Thematic Transformation vs. Developing Variation

Musically, there is a difference between thematic transformation and the development of variation in a work. Developing variation often changes a basic constructive feature of a melody and one or more characterizing elements. Thematic transformation, on the other hand, will alter the base melody entirely in some way. Additionally, variation tends to be more ornamental. In other words, it elaborates on the existing melody but does not inherently change the core elements.


Transposition in music refers to the lowering or raising of the pitch by a consistent interval, meaning the relationship between individual notes has not changed even as the pitch has. A work may be transposed to adjust the pitch for the sake of the singer performing the piece. Similarly, a piece may need to be transposed to adjust the work for the addition or substitution of an instrument. The impact transposition has on the music and its reception by the audience will depend on many factors, including whether the pitch was raised or lowered, and which instruments or singers are being added or changed to the piece. For example, a theme played on a flute (high pitch) that is then repeated later on a bassoon (low pitch) will likely result in the audience perceiving an emotional shift from happy and light to more somber and serious.

Modulation







Modulation is a form of transformation where the melody undergoes a key change. Modulation can occur in many forms from very brief changes in key to entire chains of modulation that lead from one starting key and, by the end, to a very distant key.
For a key change, there typically needs to be a pivot-chord, or time within the piece for the shift to occur. Oftentimes this shift will take at least one musical phrase to accomplish.

Inversion

An inversion is the creation of a mirror image of the original melody by having a second musical line move in opposition to the original. In other words, If the original theme goes up, the new line will go down by the same interval. For example, a rise in the original melody would be paired with a fall in its inverted counterpart. Inverted pieces may not retain the same pitch at the start or end of the piece as the original.
_____

_____
Retrograde

Considered another type of inversion, the retrograde form of thematic transformation reverses the melody, like a mirror image created on a vertical axis.




Once you begin to think this way, you can have the structural appreciation of a musical idea, a part of the head, or an idea thrown to you with the ending of the previous solo, a favourite catchy hook or small musical idea that is ripe for development (you'll learn to recognize a good idea, and not to miss the opportunity to extend it or develop it if you choose.) Development process can also include being master of ornamentation (passing notes, approach notes, syncopation, enclosures, exiting notes, truncating a phrase, octave transposition) and all sorts of other great melodic ideas that, once you make them part of your working lexicon, you can use them as part of your own personal vocabulary.

I find it's really helpful for me to listen to music that is thoughtfully organized this way, whether it's Mozart or Sonny Rollins, Bach or Jim Hall. The compositional sensibility is something you bring to the game on your own terms.
A lot of improvisors don't think this way and it's certainly not a necessary ability, but once you can hear it in other composers (including soloists), it becomes a powerful way to build a real work of musical narrative and story in your playing.
It's also really helpful for me to assimilate these approaches a little at a time, and to write small etudes for yourself over changes that are known to you. That's a GREAT way to develop mastery; sharpen your awareness of options, then bring it to the real time realm.
Good for you for being interested!

Thanks a lot for this!. How do the majority of improvisors think about this?

[Tal_175]

"Modern melodic technique" by Gordon Delamont is a book pretty much dedicated to this topic.

[Jimmy blue note]

Thanks a lot for this!. How do the majority of improvisors think about this?

Not by a long shot. But the nice thing about jazz is, you're given the freedom to use the solo space any way you want.
There are many players who are familiar with the requisite scales, arpeggios and ornamentation and have personal ways in which to order those elements into a multi chorus solo. There are many who take inspiration from the phrases, vocabulary, sounds and internalizations of other players.
As a matter of fact, there are some players who don't use motific development at all.
But this is one strategy that is part of the Western classical legacy which some improvisors employ to a lesser or greater degree.
I hear motific development in the music of Mick Goodrick, Jim Hall, Sonny Rollins, Paul Desmond, Ed Bikert, Fred Hersch, Keith Jarrett, ...well, many more.
Being at least aware of how this is done, being proficient in ear and in hand gives any improvisor a tool that allows for variation, re-statement, structure and compositional integrity that, if you chose, you can use even in small ways, to give substance and body to your ideas.

I teach this to students who come to me and ask "What can I do in my solo besides scales, arpeggios, licks and cool lines I've taken from transcriptions? I run out of ideas and I hit a wall." Techniques of development can be useful in expanding the creative horizon of one's soloing. It can give you ways to shape the structures of phrases, song segments, choruses, solos...in the ways western composers could build a symphony from one three note motif.

One nice example of some of these techniques is the large free form improvisational solo that Keith Jarrett played in his Koln Solo. He can build entire compositional solos from the core of very musical ideas developed. You can also see how he does this in his Standards Trio solo performances. It's one way to develop and highlight an inherent sense of lyricism, building and constructing statement after statement.

In answer though, No, it's not a given and lots of players don't think this way at all. It's just something I like to have in my soloing and something I recognize in some others. It happens to coincide with players I like who employ clarity, brevity, a discernable sense of statement and purposeful narrative.
Some people like that. Some people don't.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks a lot for this!. How do the majority of improvisors think about this?

Theres a really fun discussion of this on the modular lick compendium thread (Modular lick compendium)

I posted a few videos where I’m doing this kind of stuff. Not super strict but using a lot of ideas I got from some of the old counterpoint junk I got in college.

In particular post #62.

[lukatherknopfler]

Not by a long shot. But the nice thing about jazz is, you're given the freedom to use the solo space any way you want.
There are many players who are familiar with the requisite scales, arpeggios and ornamentation and have personal ways in which to order those elements into a multi chorus solo. There are many who take inspiration from the phrases, vocabulary, sounds and internalizations of other players.
As a matter of fact, there are some players who don't use motific development at all.
But this is one strategy that is part of the Western classical legacy which some improvisors employ to a lesser or greater degree.
I hear motific development in the music of Mick Goodrick, Jim Hall, Sonny Rollins, Paul Desmond, Ed Bikert, Fred Hersch, Keith Jarrett, ...well, many more.
Being at least aware of how this is done, being proficient in ear and in hand gives any improvisor a tool that allows for variation, re-statement, structure and compositional integrity that, if you chose, you can use even in small ways, to give substance and body to your ideas.

I teach this to students who come to me and ask "What can I do in my solo besides scales, arpeggios, licks and cool lines I've taken from transcriptions? I run out of ideas and I hit a wall." Techniques of development can be useful in expanding the creative horizon of one's soloing. It can give you ways to shape the structures of phrases, song segments, choruses, solos...in the ways western composers could build a symphony from one three note motif.

One nice example of some of these techniques is the large free form improvisational solo that Keith Jarrett played in his Koln Solo. He can build entire compositional solos from the core of very musical ideas developed. You can also see how he does this in his Standards Trio solo performances. It's one way to develop and highlight an inherent sense of lyricism, building and constructing statement after statement.

In answer though, No, it's not a given and lots of players don't think this way at all. It's just something I like to have in my soloing and something I recognize in some others. It happens to coincide with players I like who employ clarity, brevity, a discernable sense of statement and purposeful narrative.
Some people like that. Some people don't.

This is a great and clear answer!!. How do jazz musicians that do not use motivic development think when crafting their ideas and improvisations???.

[Jimmy blue note]

This is a great and clear answer!!. How do jazz musicians that do not use motivic development think when crafting their ideas and improvisations???.

HUGE answer. For some idea of the spectrum, at one end there are those who play off a chart (lead sheet), look at a chord symbol and try to play notes of the scale suggested by that.
At the other end, there are those who can be inspired by the chord symbols as being a suggestion or guideline from which they can use considerations like linear melody of their own creation, use of contour, use of space, use of contrast, use of repeated notes, considerations of continuitiy, considerations of texture, some internal sense of large scale ordering (I've just created a statement of great harmonic density... I will next create a sense of breath with a following statement that asserts a more breathy portion of a solo, linear shape, angularity vs scale like lyricism, intervallic construction, instrumental form (trills, slides or bends applied to a phrase), ... just for starters.

Intelligent soloing is a combination of technical facility, sense of design and a personal over arcing personal statement. Like language, there is a lexicon, a syntax and some semantic content (something you want to convey).
Of course there's a lot of "go for it and play until you get lost" too, especially in the learning process. You know your abilities, you have a reason to play and you work your whole life until they converge on a true and satisfying reflection of yourself. That's the ideal.
MANY ways to get there.
Learn by listening. THe more you know, the deeper your listening becomes and the more you can craft into your own compositional identity. The more it can be more than craft and become art.
That's one thing I hope for anyway.

[lukatherknopfler]

HUGE answer. For some idea of the spectrum, at one end there are those who play off a chart (lead sheet), look at a chord symbol and try to play notes of the scale suggested by that.
At the other end, there are those who can be inspired by the chord symbols as being a suggestion or guideline from which they can use considerations like linear melody of their own creation, use of contour, use of space, use of contrast, use of repeated notes, considerations of continuitiy, considerations of texture, some internal sense of large scale ordering (I've just created a statement of great harmonic density... I will next create a sense of breath with a following statement that asserts a more breathy portion of a solo, linear shape, angularity vs scale like lyricism, intervallic construction, instrumental form (trills, slides or bends applied to a phrase), ... just for starters.

Intelligent soloing is a combination of technical facility, sense of design and a personal over arcing personal statement. Like language, there is a lexicon, a syntax and some semantic content (something you want to convey).
Of course there's a lot of "go for it and play until you get lost" too, especially in the learning process. You know your abilities, you have a reason to play and you work your whole life until they converge on a true and satisfying reflection of yourself. That's the ideal.
MANY ways to get there.
Learn by listening. THe more you know, the deeper your listening becomes and the more you can craft into your own compositional identity. The more it can be more than craft and become art.
That's one thing I hope for anyway.

This is a very interesting topic!. Do you know any books that go deep into this topic?

[Jimmy blue note]

This is a very interesting topic!. Do you know any books that go deep into this topic?

This is a lifetime's study and delightful critical listening, because as a creative art, every performance is a book. But although it's not easy to codify the evolutionary nature of the dynamic history of jazz, there is one book I constantly recommend. Thinking in Jazz by Paul Berliner.
There are many more excellent ones, but I love his take on understanding not only the theoretical structures but also the stories of the people, times and audiences that shaped the jazz we have today. It's important to recognize just how and why jazz is different from any other music, particularly the responsibiity of the listener to hear, comment, and give back to the experience in a live real time situation.
Knowing about the music, knowing what you're listening to, knowing the choices the performers are making, understanding the collaboration and dynamic nature of creative music is essential to a deep appreciation and an ability to play this music.
For me, the Berliner book speaks to me. I find it a knowledgeable and well researched overview and insightful presentation.
Lots of other books on my shelf but they're packed away for an upcoming move. I liked Joel Harrison's Guitar Talk because it gets to a lot of personal takes on the music and crafts through interviews with the artists themselves.
Enjoy the journey!

[Jimmy Smith]

I think this is an excellent topic that should be covered more. Since there's not much material on it I was forced to figure it out myself through listening and contemplation. I have a short answer for you:

Phrasing: If you listen to the greats solo you'll hear that to phrase, they string together short and long pieces. The short pieces can be between 2-5 or so notes and the longer lines are longer. They'll directly sequence things or develop the pieces more abstractly.

Shape: You need to get material under your fingers to play the changes. Only using the scales isn't very effective for creativity or for accuracy. I discovered that if you practice scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics individually and then combine them creatively into phrases, it results in accurate sounding vocab. This is something that I haven't heard taught and I came up with myself.

There are other topics such as rhythm and rhythmic vocab, but these 2 topics really help.

[pamosmusic]

Shape: You need to get material under your fingers to play the changes. Only using the scales isn't very effective for creativity or for accuracy. I discovered that if you practice scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics individually and then combine them creatively into phrases, it results in accurate sounding vocab. This is something that I haven't heard taught and I came up with myself.

I had a lesson with Vic Juris once where he was getting into melodic shape. Pretty similar to the Jerry Bergonzi My Music Masterclass stuff. I rented that a few months ago … got a lot of great exercises out of it.

EDIT: I also really like working with single rhythms. Like steal a rhythm from the melody of the tune, or from a solo I like, and try to improvise with just that rhythm. It’s awkward at first, but eventually you start to get a handle on the kind of collections of pitches that work with the rhythm. Shape and rhythm are inseparable in that way, I think.

[Jimmy Smith]

^ That's terrif. Even more ways to methodically go about creating melody.

[pauln]

Thanks a lot for this!. How do the majority of improvisors think about this?

In another thread about what kind of music people listen to I replied mostly classical. I don't recall the name for it off hand, but the classical composers used a set of about four dozen "rules" that specified details about the acceptable limits of jumps and directions in pitch, forbidden coincident sounding pitches, etc. I especially like concertos for violin, as a guitarist I "get what's happening" in a more intuitive way with strings. Most of the greatest composers only produced a single violin concerto, and it is clear that they were crafted with extraordinary effort and care. Long exposure to that music has influenced my jazz improvisation indirectly as a lot of those "rules" have become reflected in how I play. I can't imagine attempting to learn and utilize these rules deliberately.

[pamosmusic]

In another thread about what kind of music people listen to I replied mostly classical. I don't recall the name for it off hand, but the classical composers used a set of about four dozen "rules" that specified details about the acceptable limits of jumps and directions in pitch, forbidden coincident sounding pitches, etc. I especially like concertos for violin, as a guitarist I "get what's happening" in a more intuitive way with strings. Most of the greatest composers only produced a single violin concerto, and it is clear that they were crafted with extraordinary effort and care. Long exposure to that music has influenced my jazz improvisation indirectly as a lot of those "rules" have become reflected in how I play. I can't imagine attempting to learn and utilize these rules deliberately.

There are a lot of places to find things like this. Fux’s Gradus ad Parnassum. A lot of old voiceleading texts and things.

But I wouldn’t say classical composers utilize a single set of prescribed rules any more than jazz improvisers do. They all studied in some form or fashion—formally or informally, for a long time or short—but they studied different things in different places at different times. A composer in turn of the century France will be exposed to a totally different array of music and academia than a composer in sixteenth century Italy. And the nature of any composer that is still regarded as a master, 200 or 300 or 400 years after they died, is that they’d be—by definition—wildly innovative and creative.

You won’t find Bach’s counterpoint by looking at any of the rules or texts that existed before. Carlo Gesualdo’s harmony threw rules out the window.

I’m not saying that they didn’t study and I’m not saying that a set of rules derived from their music would be unhelpful. I’m just saying they’d be just that—derived from the music. They’d be as helpful as studying jazz theory is to an improviser who wants to play like Charlie Parker. Helpful, for sure, but not in the way ex post facto analysis can be. It won’t be the source of the magic.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bert Ligon' Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony and Comprehensive Technique for Jazz Musicians are great books that I have found indispensable for creating lines and motifs in soloing.



403 Forbidden

[Christian Miller]

There are a lot of places to find things like this. Fux’s Gradus ad Parnassum. A lot of old voiceleading texts and things.

But I wouldn’t say classical composers utilize a single set of prescribed rules any more than jazz improvisers do. They all studied in some form or fashion—formally or informally, for a long time or short—but they studied different things in different places at different times. A composer in turn of the century France will be exposed to a totally different array of music and academia than a composer in sixteenth century Italy. And the nature of any composer that is still regarded as a master, 200 or 300 or 400 years after they died, is that they’d be—by definition—wildly innovative and creative.

You won’t find Bach’s counterpoint by looking at any of the rules or texts that existed before. Carlo Gesualdo’s harmony threw rules out the window.

I’m not saying that they didn’t study and I’m not saying that a set of rules derived from their music would be unhelpful. I’m just saying they’d be just that—derived from the music. They’d be as helpful as studying jazz theory is to an improviser who wants to play like Charlie Parker. Helpful, for sure, but not in the way ex post facto analysis can be. It won’t be the source of the magic.

Apparently Bach had Fux’s treatise but didn’t use it… Fux is a funny one because everyone think it’s the Palestrina style, but actually it isn’t. Some very niche podcasts for you. Bet you were sorry for mentioning it now haha.

[Christian Miller]

Any recommendations on jazz books that talk about motif development for coherent ideas in improvisation?

I have a friend who swears by the Hal Crook ‘how to improvise’ book but it is rather expensive so I never bought it.

[Christian Miller]

In another thread about what kind of music people listen to I replied mostly classical. I don't recall the name for it off hand, but the classical composers used a set of about four dozen "rules" that specified details about the acceptable limits of jumps and directions in pitch, forbidden coincident sounding pitches, etc. I especially like concertos for violin, as a guitarist I "get what's happening" in a more intuitive way with strings. Most of the greatest composers only produced a single violin concerto, and it is clear that they were crafted with extraordinary effort and care. Long exposure to that music has influenced my jazz improvisation indirectly as a lot of those "rules" have become reflected in how I play. I can't imagine attempting to learn and utilize these rules deliberately.

Stick around long enough and you can usually see those rules broken….

Despite what gets taught in many school harmony classes, I get the feeling that real composers learned more by imitating and developing good models than avoiding prohibitions. As Brahms put it, if you have problems with parallels there’s a deeper problem with your harmony. (Lack of variety in sonorities for instance.)

C18 composers as a rule wrote VERY fast, often with little revision or editing. They had to to survive in their professions. They were just very good at doing it. Later on the speed of composition slowed down and composers got a little more careful, but Brahms and so on still had a pretty impressive output, compared to how long it took Boulez to compose a few dozen pieces.

[pamosmusic]

Bet you were sorry for mentioning it now haha.

Not so.

[Jimmy blue note]

Apparently Bach had Fux’s treatise but didn’t use it…

Back in the day, there were many hard copy magazines that give us a nice historical perspective on what "the greats" actually did or did not know. One such publication, the Rococo equivalent of Downbeat, a publication out of Leipzig called Going For Baroque, Bach is quoted as saying "It's not the bible for Fux sake."

[Christian Miller]

Back in the day, there were many hard copy magazines that give us a nice historical perspective on what "the greats" actually did or did not know. One such publication, the Rococo equivalent of Downbeat, a publication out of Leipzig called Going For Baroque, Bach is quoted as saying "It's not the bible for Fux sake."

I can 100% imagine him saying it that’s the funny thing…

[Jimmy blue note]

Despite what gets taught in many school harmony classes, I get the feeling that real composers learned more by imitating and developing good models than avoiding prohibitions. .

But they faced an entirely different set of obstacles. 'different things they had to avoid: