Jazz Blues origin recordings?

[DawgBone]

TBH I am surprised how people seriously interested in playing jazz have difficulties recognizing the 12 bar blues form if bar 2 goes to V instead of IV (aka quick change). (You could extend that to a | I / #Io / | II-7 / V7 / | if you want for the first two bars, IIRC there is a version of Red Top that does that).

I am also surprised sometimes how easily people loose the form if the blues stays on the I in bars 10 and 12 (no turnback).

Considering that blues isn't really taught at the collegiate level it's not surprising to me. I knew good horn players who could stick AABA 32 bar stuff great but couldn't play a spare 12 bar blues. You have to ingrain the changes to the same degree or you're DOA. There are no interesting chord changes to spice up a bland solo with straight blues.

I sometimes like to do the wild turkey test. Who is still sticking their 12 bar once they get a double of wild turkey and a beer inside. A good blues player can be blacked out drunk and not miss those core change but a buzz would throw off a newcomer or pretender. I would assume a real jazzman could be blacked out and still follow rhythm changes. Ingrain it so deep that it gets into the part of your brain responsible for keeping you breathing when every other system in your body is malfunctioning.

[MarkRhodes]

From 1961. If you play music from the swing age to younger people most of them will associate it with animated cartoon soundtracks ...

Cartoon soundtracks were my introduction to classical music.

This isn't classical but I'll always love it.

[Bop Head]

A lot of people seem to learn the blues one way and “that’s how you play the blues.”

Most jazz folks know at least three ways of the blues: The folk blues pattern going from V in meas. 9 down to IV in bar 10 as it is used in all those boogie-woogie, Chicago blues, rock & roll and rockabilly tunes and since 60ies soul jazz was often used in jazz as well (and also in extended form in of pop songs like Prince's "Kiss" or Michael Jackson's "Black Or White"), then the "jazz blues" with the "quick change" in meas. 2 and the II-V in meas. 9 to 10 and finally the "Bird blues" à la "Blues For Alice" with its chains of II-Vs.

[Bop Head]

Considering that blues isn't really taught at the collegiate level it's not surprising to me. I knew good horn players who could stick AABA 32 bar stuff great but couldn't play a spare 12 bar blues. You have to ingrain the changes to the same degree or you're DOA. There are no interesting chord changes to spice up a bland solo with straight blues.

I sometimes like to do the wild turkey test. Who is still sticking their 12 bar once they get a double of wild turkey and a beer inside. A good blues player can be blacked out drunk and not miss those core change but a buzz would throw off a newcomer or pretender. I would assume a real jazzman could be blacked out and still follow rhythm changes. Ingrain it so deep that it gets into the part of your brain responsible for keeping you breathing when every other system in your body is malfunctioning.

I would not recommend to get loaded but I highly recommend ingraining the blues form. Playing Blue Monk with having to look into the Real Book in front of you is really embarrassing.

It does not hurt to know some eight-bar blues tunes as well.

[John A.]

Where should I go to listen to the recordings where jazz blues drew its first inspiration?

I assume we’re talking about standards and not Chicago blues or Delta blues (both of which I love, BTW), but I don’t really know.

Who started jazz blues and what songs were they working from?

I don't think there are recordings that answer this question. For people like Satchmo, Bix, Ellington, Ma Rainey, Eddie Durham, etc., blues song forms were learned from other musicians within their culture, and/or from sheet music (e.g., WC Handy songs), not from recordings. The jazz blues forms with I VI II V changes/turnaround (as distinct from forms with just I IV V) is quite old and can be found in country blues (a couple of obvious examples are "From Four Until Late" and "Hesitation Blues").

By the time we get to the era when recordings were common (1920s), there was so much cross-pollination between "jazz" and "blues" and between different regional variants of blues that I don't think it's possible to sort out who did what first where. You're asking what seems like a straightforward question (built on the assumption that jazz evolved from and added sophistication to blues), but it's actually a very complex ethno-musicological subject.

I guess maybe a way to sidestep that complexity is to ask for examples of early blues recordings that use I IV II V changes. To that end, I suggest checking out an anthology called "Broke, Black, and Blue".

[sgcim]

From 1961. If you play music from the swing age to younger people most of them will associate it with animated cartoon soundtracks ...

Yeah, she was a hep-kitty alright...Meow!

[PMB]

BTW I was really surprised recently at a jam session that no one of the experienced jazzers knew the following variation in bars 5 to 8 which I think is one of the most important in early bebop and jump blues:

~ | IV7 / / / | #IVo / / / | I / II-7 / | III-7 / bIII-7 / | II-7 ~

(diatonic walk-up from I via II to III and chromatically down to II)

e.g. here

[derivation bars 7 to 8:

1.) III-7 as sub for I; both can be connected by diatonic passing chord II-m7;

2.) III-7 as II chord for IV7: III-7 VI7 -> II-7

3.) bIII-7 as chromatic passing chord between III-7 and II-7 substitutes IV7 ]

A lot of players refer to that progression as the "Stormy Monday" change. Although it goes way back, the progression doesn't feature in T-Bone Walker's earliest Capitol & Atlantic recordings of his own tune (1947 and 1956). It was the Allman Brothers '71 Fillmore version that made it popular and T-Bone himself adopted the progression in his later live releases.

[Bop Head]

A lot of players refer to that progression as the "Stormy Monday" change. Although it goes way back, the progression doesn't feature in T-Bone Walkers's earliest Capitol & Atlantic recordings of his own tune (1947 and 1956). It was the Allman Brothers '71 Fillmore version that made it popular and T-Bone himself adopted the progression in his later live releases.

I wanted to sing Stormy Monday at that jazz jam session (and I did) but it was a total mess and those jazzers were totally overstrained. I had not listened to the Allman Brothers' version for maybe 35 years and now I realize that they use a bIImaj7 in bar 10. Some people also go to V directly from the bIIIm7 as in e.g.

~ | I7 / IIm7 / | IIIm7 / bIIIm7 / | V7 / / / | bVI7 / V7 / | I ~

I knew that Walker's original version did not include that diatonic walk-up and I will try to find some of the later live versions you mentioned.

Nonetheless I am still shocked that this variation of blues changes is not better known among jazzers in my hometown. The fact that Barry Harris seems to have taught it as well (have yet to find the respective episode of TILFBH) shows its importance in the days of bebop way before 1971.

[Kirk Garrett]

I’m still not finding many early vocal versions of blues songs that go beyond the basic changes.

Bur this is a super useful lesson.

[John A.]

I wanted to sing Stormy Monday at that jazz jam session (and I did) but it was a total mess and those jazzers were totally overstrained. I had not listened to the Allman Brothers' version for maybe 35 years and now I realize that they use a bIImaj7 in bar 10. Some people also go to V directly from the bIIIm7 as in e.g.

~ | I7 / IIm7 / | IIIm7 / bIIIm7 / | V7 / / / | bVI7 / V7 / | I ~

I knew that Walker's original version did not include that diatonic walk-up and I will try to find some of the later live versions you mentioned.

Nonetheless I am still shocked that this variation of blues changes is not better known among jazzers in my hometown. The fact that Barry Harris seems to have taught it as well (have yet to find the respective episode of TILFBH) shows its importance in the days of bebop way before 1971.

The Allman Bros got their changes from the Bobby Blue Bland version.

They even announce it as a Bobby Blue Bland song on Live at the Fillmore East. IME experience, jazz players and blues players pretty much universally know these changes as "Stormy Monday changes". Similar changes (with variants on the I7-ii7-iii walk-up) 7crop up on other tunes, such as:

This (even earlier than the BBB version)

or this:

My guess would be that the BBB changes are on some other even earlier blues recordings (I just don't know which ones). Another possibility is that these changes and/or variants of them were something that people just did as a variant of blues changes passed along through the oral tradition that isn't fully captured on recordings. For instance, There's a live version by T-bone from '68 (i.e., before Live at the Fillmore East was released) that has a little bit of a walk-up and some double-time soloing.

I think in general that when you try to find the "first" version of a folk-song variant you go down a rabbit hole.

[Bop Head]

The Allman Bros got their changes from the Bobby Blue Bland version.

They even announce it as a Bobby Blue Bland song on Live at the Fillmore East. IME experience, jazz players and blues players pretty much universally know these changes as "Stormy Monday changes". Similar changes (with variants on the I7-ii7-iii walk-up) 7crop up on other tunes, such as:

This (even earlier than the BBB version)

or this:

My guess would be that the BBB changes are on some other even earlier blues recordings (I just don't know which ones). Another possibility is that these changes and/or variants of them were something that people just did as a variant of blues changes passed along through the oral tradition that isn't fully captured on recordings. For instance, There's a live version by T-bone from '68 (i.e., before Live at the Fillmore East was released) that has a little bit of a walk-up and some double-time soloing.

I think in general that when you try to find the "first" version of a folk-song variant you go down a rabbit hole.

The most famous earlier blues I know with the diatonic walk-up is "Red Top" (40ies) that I posted further above. I guess the diatonic walkup followed by going down chromatic to the II is a bebop thing.

I think I was wrong about the existence of a Things I Learned From Barry Harris video regarding those blues changes but there is at least one about going chromatically from IIIm7 via bIIIm7 to the IIm7 as turnaround variation:

[slabboardsam]

From 1961. If you play music from the swing age to younger people most of them will associate it with animated cartoon soundtracks ...

I'm 25; I've started teaching myself C6 lap steel. I've had variations on this conversation with friends several times:

"I'm learning lap steel guitar."

"What the fuck is lap steel?"

"Uhh...it's like what you hear on the music from 'Spongebob.'"

"Oh YEAH! Man, that's awesome."

[Kirk Garrett]

The Allman Bros got their changes from the Bobby Blue Bland version.

They even announce it as a Bobby Blue Bland song on Live at the Fillmore East. IME experience, jazz players and blues players pretty much universally know these changes as "Stormy Monday changes". Similar changes (with variants on the I7-ii7-iii walk-up) 7crop up on other tunes, such as:

This (even earlier than the BBB version)

or this:

My guess would be that the BBB changes are on some other even earlier blues recordings (I just don't know which ones). Another possibility is that these changes and/or variants of them were something that people just did as a variant of blues changes passed along through the oral tradition that isn't fully captured on recordings. For instance, There's a live version by T-bone from '68 (i.e., before Live at the Fillmore East was released) that has a little bit of a walk-up and some double-time soloing.

I think in general that when you try to find the "first" version of a folk-song variant you go down a rabbit hole.

I like the rabbit hole


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruger9]

I always thought Tiny Grimes exemplified jazz blues.

T-Bone Walker, even Clarence Gatemouth Brown... but maybe they were blues jazz instead of jazz blues? LOL

Louis Armstrong is what I immediately think of: him and all the early jazz coming out of New Orleans. Part blues, part jazz, a dash of marches thrown in, a little gospel... it was quite the gumbo! "Louis Armstrong Plays WC Handy" is a favorite album... ANYTHING by Louis Jordan, altho most people probably call him jump blues... it all sort of blends together (again- like a gumbo)

For guitar, Kenny Burrell is definitely in there. But even Charlie Christian had some jazz blues going on with Benny Goodman...

[DawgBone]

T-Bone Walker, even Clarence Gatemouth Brown... but maybe they were blues jazz instead of jazz blues? LOL

Louis Armstrong is what I immediately think of: him and all the early jazz coming out of New Orleans. Part blues, part jazz, a dash of marches thrown in, a little gospel... it was quite the gumbo! "Louis Armstrong Plays WC Handy" is a favorite album... ANYTHING by Louis Jordan, altho most people probably call him jump blues... it all sort of blends together (again- like a gumbo)

For guitar, Kenny Burrell is definitely in there. But even Charlie Christian had some jazz blues going on with Benny Goodman...

Maybe you are right about T-Bone and Gate.

T-Bone basically invented electric blues guitar as it's known today. All the cliches seem to stem from his playing. That's why a bunch of west coast dudes wear bowling shirts and wingtips and play like T-Bone's shadow these days. Not my bag at all, but there are a lot of talented guit-fiddlers doing that. I somehow never seem to play the style of blues that is currently popular. T-Bone is also kinda "big band" at times. He sure rips off a lot of Chuck Berry licks though (kidding of course), lol

Gatemouth's big break was filling in for T-Bone, no? For a while in Austin Okie Dokie Stomp was just about mandatory for a blues player. I'm pretty sure even a good jazzman would have to work on this one here:

How about some Meade Lux Lewis for a little more jazz blues?

[Bop Head]

Maybe you are right about T-Bone and Gate.

T-Bone basically invented electric blues guitar as it's known today. All the cliches seem to stem from his playing. That's why a bunch of west coast dudes wear bowling shirts and wingtips and play like T-Bone's shadow these days. Not my bag at all, but there are a lot of talented guit-fiddlers doing that. I somehow never seem to play the style of blues that is currently popular. T-Bone is also kinda "big band" at times. He sure rips off a lot of Chuck Berry licks though (kidding of course), lol

Gatemouth's big break was filling in for T-Bone, no? For a while in Austin Okie Dokie Stomp was just about mandatory for a blues player. I'm pretty sure even a good jazzman would have to work on this one here:

How about some Meade Lux Lewis for a little more jazz blues?

T-Bone Walker was also part of Jazz At The Philharmonic several times. Here he plays with an all-star band:

[John A.]

I like the rabbit hole


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then keep digging ...

not easy to hear the changes in this, but the Preservation Hall guys make the I VI II V very explicit

[Kirk Garrett]

Maybe you are right about T-Bone and Gate.

T-Bone basically invented electric blues guitar as it's known today. All the cliches seem to stem from his playing. That's why a bunch of west coast dudes wear bowling shirts and wingtips and play like T-Bone's shadow these days. Not my bag at all, but there are a lot of talented guit-fiddlers doing that. I somehow never seem to play the style of blues that is currently popular. T-Bone is also kinda "big band" at times. He sure rips off a lot of Chuck Berry licks though (kidding of course), lol

Gatemouth's big break was filling in for T-Bone, no? For a while in Austin Okie Dokie Stomp was just about mandatory for a blues player. I'm pretty sure even a good jazzman would have to work on this one here:

How about some Meade Lux Lewis for a little more jazz blues?

I noticed that Charlie Christian ripped off a lot of T-bone’s licks, too.

[Bop Head]

I noticed that Charlie Christian ripped off a lot of T-bone’s licks, too.

They had the same teacher AFAIK.

[Kirk Garrett]

They had the same teacher AFAIK.

It does seem like Charlie Christian is the fountain of everything.

[ruger9]

Maybe you are right about T-Bone and Gate.

T-Bone basically invented electric blues guitar as it's known today. All the cliches seem to stem from his playing. That's why a bunch of west coast dudes wear bowling shirts and wingtips and play like T-Bone's shadow these days. Not my bag at all, but there are a lot of talented guit-fiddlers doing that. I somehow never seem to play the style of blues that is currently popular. T-Bone is also kinda "big band" at times. He sure rips off a lot of Chuck Berry licks though (kidding of course), lol

Gatemouth's big break was filling in for T-Bone, no? For a while in Austin Okie Dokie Stomp was just about mandatory for a blues player. I'm pretty sure even a good jazzman would have to work on this one here:

How about some Meade Lux Lewis for a little more jazz blues?

Holy smokes!!!! Gate could shred!! I don't think I've ever heard T-Bone play that fast.

[ruger9]

Here's another jazz blues guy, altho he's not an "originator"... Roy Lanham

[DawgBone]

Then keep digging ...

not easy to hear the changes in this, but the Preservation Hall guys make the I VI II V very explicit

George :Lewis's clarinet strikes me as very similar phrasing and sound to a modern overdriven blues guitar one my first listen. Man is he smooth....

[Jimmy Smith]

Good posts with the King Oliver from 1923, Eddie Lang from 1929, and the Meade Lux Lewis. I think that is the origins of it. 50s and 60s stuff is nowhere near the origin of jazz blues. I'd say the 20s is pretty close to the beginning or right at it. Before that, jazz was dixieland. You could hear more individual instrumentalists play bluesy before that, pianists and guitarists played the blues at the turn of the century. But by jazz blues I think you mean the band. Duke in 1928 where you can hear the standard jazz blues form with jazz blues vocab to a swing beat.

[Kirk Garrett]

Good posts with the King Oliver from 1923, Eddie Lang from 1929, and the Meade Lux Lewis. I think that is the origins of it. 50s and 60s stuff is nowhere near the origin of jazz blues. I'd say the 20s is pretty close to the beginning or right at it. Before that, jazz was dixieland. You could hear more individual instrumentalists play bluesy before that, pianists and guitarists played the blues at the turn of the century. But by jazz blues I think you mean the band. Duke in 1928 where you can hear the standard jazz blues form with jazz blues vocab to a swing beat.

Good stuff!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk