Connecting arpeggios within one shape

[teun]

It is very difficult to me to connect different arpeggio’s within one shape, especially non diatonic arpeggio’s.

Since you don’t know the full position for the non diatonic arpeggio’s in the shape it is really hard to find the notes closeby (to the end of the previous bar) that belong to the next arpeggio. Maybe I need to see the note names of the arpeggio’s to see which notes to hit when I don’t start on the root or should I see them in intervals? I’m kind of lost.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to learn and practice this?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

What do you mean by “shape”? Position?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Voice leading in general avoids leaps most of the time. Do you understand that basic principle? If you sang in a choir you would get it right away.

Leaps (as opposed to steps) sound jerky and are difficult to execute, especially for vocalists. A smooth line is generally preferred by performer and listener alike. (Again, generally, there are exceptions).

Anyway, you can start by targeting the nearest note of the new arpeggio. There is more to it than that, but you can start there. Map out two consecutive arpeggios then identify and play the nearest note moves from each chord tone. In some cases there will be more than one choice. Try them both.

[pamosmusic]

Voice leading in general avoids leaps most of the time. Do you understand that basic principle? If you sang in a choir you would get it right away.

Leaps (as opposed to steps) sound jerky and are difficult to execute, especially for vocalists. A smooth line is generally preferred by performer and listener alike. (Again, generally, there are exceptions).

Anyway, you can start by targeting the nearest note of the new arpeggio. There is more to it than that, but you can start there. Map out two consecutive arpeggios then identify and play the nearest note moves from each chord tone. In some cases there will be more than one choice. Try them both.

This pretty much covers it. Only thing I would add is to start small. Instead of trying a whole tune or section of a tune, literally start with just a pair of chords. Slowly work your way up to the larger progressions.

Also works in a technical sense — in whatever position you start in, there’s nothing wrong with limiting yourself to two or three strings too.

[Jimmy Smith]

Focus on 1 hand position only, leave your hand in 1 spot. Run the arps to a chord progression or tune across all strings. When there's a chord change, hit the next note in that arp rather than going back to the root. Repeat this exercise in a different position. Eventually you will start to see the shapes better and be able to flow between the arps better.

[pauln]

Not clear, but it sounds like your question is how to anticipate the up coming fingering with respect to the present fingering while maintaining a position. That is, basically how to know if the next phrase may be fingered from the present position or if it requires a shift up or down the neck, and specifically which pitch locations (fret/string) the next phrase will need in relation to either the position being used for the present phrase or a shifted position.

I guess this is an artifact of using position playing when reading music, since positions help not having to look at the finger board and lets one stay sighted on the music page... until you may need to shift position).

You might broaden your position span so that from neutral thumb you have access to a six fret span, and by holding the thumb position and shifting the hand you may extend the span an additional fret above and below.

Or, make a slight thumb shift (not to another "position" but a fractional position enough to provide for encompassing the subsequent phrase fingering. This is a conceptual deviation from the strict position system of fingering - so every fret is the basis for a position, and moving about means connecting the pitches to the underlying finger board rather than connecting to the fingerings of the "set" positions. Whether this feels more like freedom and ease depends on your current mode of thinking about where things are in reference to what.

Position playing potentially allows almost all the frets to be the registration for each of four fingers, so you might have about 50 conceptual (useful?) fingering positions, about a dozen mechanical fingering positions after removing the redundant ones (e.g., position third finger fifth fret may mechanically equal position first finger third fret although you may conceptually think of them as different). The other extreme is to conceive the whole finger board as one global fingering (for any instance of scale, chord, etc.). Common position systems use five, seven, a few others.

I think we who play by ear regard strict position playing as essentially hiding or disguising the linearity of phrase lines. That linearity on the finger board supports part of the means of playing by ear through mapping of pitch to fingering, kind of unfolding the pitches from awkward positions fingering and re-laying the musical lines into a fingering that suits the fingers, re-positioning the hand without regard to "positions" to achieve this. This may be a little too "floaty" for music score reading, or maybe one just has to be an excellent reader to shed the positions altogether (?).

[rpjazzguitar]

So, if you made a fretboard diagram and colored in the notes for Chord A in red and Chord B in green ... then the task would be switching from the last red note to the first green note without making a big jump? Do I understand correctly that this is what you're talking about?

You have a choice.

You can memorize the shapes of the arps. You have to do that so well that you can start the arp on any note within it. Also, play the notes in any order, not just ascending or descending. And, of course, you need to be able to do that in multiple places on the neck in every key.

I have not been able to do that. So, I found another way. I realized that I could find all the notes in Cmaj7 with ease, but I couldn't do that for, say, D#m7b5. So, I started drilling myself on knowing the notes in all the chords. I can do many without thought. For more complicated ones (to me, anyway) like D#m7b5 and others I may have to think for a little too long. So, for those I may still use shapes or scales. Better than nothing, but not as good as knowing where all the notes are and being aware of the tonal center.

Being aware of the tonal center is part of it, for music that has well defined tonal centers. So, you know the chord tones and you can fill in the other consonant notes by knowing the tonal center. Or, you could think of it as knowing the scale of the moment. So for the D#m7b5, you might know that it could be key of Emajor or you might think of it as F#melmin.

If all of that sounds overwhelming, you could just work it out one song and one fretboard position at a time. You could even do the red and green dot thing.

[fep]

I like to break things into chunks, so I might just practice a ii V I in the tune for one session. I find that very enjoyable, relaxing, almost like meditation.

I might start with just the notes of the arpeggios but quickly morph to adding additional notes while still being aware of the underlying arpeggios (chord tones). I seem to be a big fan of the b9 for a V chord, I also like little chromatic approach tones.

[emanresu]

From my own experience, it's not hard - it is plain impossible.... when you wan't to learn it all at once.

Small chunks, single position, single octave, start with only a pair of chords. Add more only when feeling comfortable with 2 chords.
Embellish the exercise with block chords of the same thing or with a proper scale lick (otherwise later you get to the same problem -
how to connect the arps to all else). Get one thing groovy, before moving on to next. And choose the most useful ones first.
When done with another one, play a tune and try to use it in similar way.

But "get it groovy" is the key with any such learning exercise - it would never work if you try blasting the arps all over the neck and try to switch on the fly.
That way the mind gets overloaded very very quickly. Although, you can do that to get the idea of "what is there". But yeah, small
comfy useful chunks tied to block chords or a scale pattern.. into the bone. Then it doesn't feel horribly hard.

[CliffR]

I completely agree with breaking it down into manageable chunks. Also, although you can practice this rubato, at some point you need to practice with a metronome or backing track of some sort. Even at a slow beat, this will show up an hesitations where you're having to think about the next note.

[Tal_175]

I agree with simplifying the task but I have a slightly different approach to simplifying. If you're struggling with connecting chords, the problem isn't in the connection, but it is in the chords. That means you're not familiar enough with the individual chord types. The reason you're struggling to connect to the next chord is, you're not able to instantly envision the next chord you're moving towards.

Connecting arpeggios was also hard for me in the beginning. But working on small progressions somehow didn't generalize well to the overall fretboard. What worked for me was to get good at each chord independently. Once a chord becomes like an old friend, you can approach any of its chord tones or extensions from another chord without problems.

Getting good at a chord type to me means developing an integrated view of comping voicings, arpeggios and line ideas (or chord scales) for that chord type across the fretboard. Of course you want to start small. Mastering one octave shapes without losing sight of the intervallic view of each chord tone is a good start. Then two octaves. Then integrating two octave arpeggios with drop 2 inversions etc.

[FwLineberry]

I have not been able to do that. So, I found another way. I realized that I could find all the notes in Cmaj7 with ease, but I couldn't do that for, say, D#m7b5. So, I started drilling myself on knowing the notes in all the chords. I can do many without thought.

Can you elaborate on the drills you used for this? Was it just a matter of rote learning and brute force repetition?

.

[AllanAllen]

Was it just a matter of rote learning and brute force repetition?

Is there any other way?

[rpjazzguitar]

Can you elaborate on the drills you used for this? Was it just a matter of rote learning and brute force repetition?

.

I'd pick a tune in IRealPro and set it for 13 repeats, with a key change by a fourth every chorus. Then, I'd play over it. If I came to a chord I didn't know, I'd stop and try to memorize the notes. If I sort of knew them but had to think, I'd slow the tempo until I could do it.

I'd think about chord tones and tonal center for the purpose of learning this material. Later on, I expanded it to non-chord tones and juxtaposing one chord over another, like playing on Gb7 when the chart says C7.

I'm not selling this as the perfect approach or even the best approach. It was just the only way I could figure out how to do it that worked for me -- since dots on grids did not.

[wolflen]

a combined knowledge of scales..chords and their inversions..arpeggios positions and string sets..in all keys

the frustrating part is just learning all this in just one or two keys and feel helpless after you play what you know in just those keys

In playing with some rock/blues players..they can play great in the keys they know..but if they were asked to play in Bb and they dont know what chords are in that key or
where the scales..arps..intervals are..they cant even play a basic 12 bar without running into trouble

this type of approach is based on confidence..really knowing what your playing..

take a basic Amin7 arpeggio..know it ascending and descending--starting on ever note of the chord (play the extensions also 9 11 13) in all positions and string sets..
yes..this takes a good deal of time and discipline

for me I would stay with one key at a time until i could connect each chord in that key in all positions and string sets starting on different notes of the chord

if you do this with each chord in a key--in all keys ..your basic knowledge of diatonic harmony..chord/scale relationship..and overall fretboard feel begins to open for you

and yes using tunes as a vehicle to use this knowledge is important..as well as playing with other musicians

this will take time and alot of practice/determination but once ingrained .. going from any two chords
you now have several ways to play them

[StringNavigator]

Improv...?
Segue: To move without interruption from one piece of music to another. So, think ahead. Or practice. Because improv is a fallacy. Bird PRACTICED! They all make it look like improv. It's part of the act. It's more like regurgitation. The sooner a beginner knows that improv is a hoax, the sooner they will improve. And the further they will go. It's another myth... like Berklee Scales... (Let's see... If I improvise a VI Half-Dominating Re-Phrygiant Omit the 5fth over a Vb7 Tritone Overtone on a Monday, I'll sound just like Bart Methane!)

Practice these non-diatonic arps of yours until your fingers fall off. Then try "improvising" with the ones you've practiced on. Try them in a real song and have a good listen to hear if all the trouble was worth it. If no one asks you to play Misty, everything will work out just fine...

Buy A Piano
This is a prime example to illustrate the benefit of learning some very elementary keyboards as a teaching auxiliary for JG. It behooves every musician to know something of the keyboard. And they go for $30 at Walmart.

Single String vs. 88
The KB is laid out in such a way, that to understand it is to understand music. The JG FB is not. The FB is laid out to play on one string. Everything is uniform and makes visual sense on one string, but of course, the thought of performing on one string is very uninviting... The Plectrum Banjo made me realise just how much the old boys used to play along the strings than across them.

Piano Is The King Of Music
For a beginner, understanding Chord-Melody is difficult on JG, but much simpler on KB. The KB visually expresses the Octaves, Chords, Doublestops, Scales, Arpeggios, Modes, Intervals, Inversions, Accidentals, Whole Steps, Half-Steps, Cycle of 5ths/4ths, 5rds/6ths, Key Signatures, Keys...

The Staff Is The Keyboard - Not The Fingerboard
Even reading music is easier. All student pianists can read in two clefs while many professional guitarists cannot read in one. It's all about the KB layout. Johnny Smith knew the score. Read the intro of his method book. And then, music publishers punish the guitarist further by providing only a single staff with one clef and a dozen ledger lines to save ink. (Then they write all the parts on one stave in "Divisi". Thank you Tin Pan Alley. That's why little Johnny can't read, but he can play a guitar just like a ringing bell...!)

Easy Ear Training
Use a piano or organ to construct scales and harmonise them in tertiary harmony up to the 13th. Then learn the sound of every chord quality. Very little gymnastics required. Try [35x477] on guitar, then on piano to feel the difference required of a guitarist.

Playing In Position
And closer to the OP's topic, navigating between arpeggios. A KB will quickly show you what playing a position is all about. Each octave lies under the hand physically. The digital patterns for scale, chord and arpeggio are not as elaborate as on guitar. And the distances are much shorter.

Non-Diatonic Chords Invoke Parallel Scales - Use 'Em!
As for non-diatonic arpeggios, their pattern should be memorised, just as you would a chord shape, so that the pattern is in your mind and your fingers simply make it so. Because when you're laying diatonic arpeggios, you're really within the umbrella of the scale and your fingers can't get lost. Or, become familiar with the parent scale that the arpeggio is diatonic to and Bob's your uncle.

::

[princeplanet]

In case the poor OP has been frightened away (I wouldn't blame him), perhaps he should have been offered this simple, unequivocal advice - learn all your arpeggio shapes in 5 positions (CAGED). Once you do this (it's a few week's hard work), then you can play any tune in arpeggios in the ONE position- ie, in any one position. Same goes for chords, scales and modes. For some us, this is the equivalent of learning the alphabet before wanting to become a writer, in other words, you don't have to do it, but you kinda do if you're serious...

[AllanAllen]

In case the poor OP has been frightened away (I wouldn't blame him), perhaps he should have been offered this simple, unequivocal advice - learn all your arpeggio shapes in 5 positions (CAGED). Once you do this (it's a few week's hard work), then you can play any tune in arpeggios in the ONE position- ie, in any one position. Same goes for chords, scales and modes. For some us, this is the equivalent of learning the alphabet before wanting to become a writer, in other words, you don't have to do it, but you kinda do if you're serious...

Careful, if you bring up CAGED the “mad at theory” crew will come around and blow up the thread.

But also, this is good advice. Learn a fretboard mapping of the major scale and then pull arpeggios from that.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

All true, but the question was about connecting one arpeggio to the next. That's where voice leading comes in.

A critical skill. Not the only skill, but critical.

[princeplanet]

All true, but the question was about connecting one arpeggio to the next. That's where voice leading comes in.

A critical skill. Not the only skill, but critical.

But thats what happens naturally when you go from one arp to the next in the same position- when it's time to switch to the next arp, you find the new arp note on the same string (or next) you played the previous note on. It's automatic voice leading. Especially if you practice each arp starting on different notes on each different string (this is extra work though!).

[Christian Miller]

Careful, if you bring up CAGED the “mad at theory” crew will come around and blow up the thread.

But also, this is good advice. Learn a fretboard mapping of the major scale and then pull arpeggios from that.

who is the “mad at theory” crew? The one’s allegedly “mad at theory”, or the ones who seem to be mad at those they perceive as “mad at theory”? Or both?

I’m not actually mad at much apart from Lego bricks left out when I stand on them.

[Christian Miller]

I’m probably a CAGED advocate if only because it seems most useful to connect the chords and the scales and lines one plays. But I think more of voicings and then notes surrounding them. I want to integrate everything together.

This goes both ways - if you work a lot on pulling chords out of scales that could have the same effect.

[ragman1]

different arpeggios within one shape

arpeggios in the shape

I'm not sure what you mean by 'shape'.

Maybe I need to see the note names of the arpeggio’s to see which notes to hit

I would say definitely.

Can you show us a practical example?

[AllanAllen]

who is the “mad at theory” crew? The one’s allegedly “mad at theory”, or the ones who seem to be mad at those they perceive as “mad at theory”? Or both?

I’m not actually mad at much apart from Lego bricks left out when I stand on them.

For me, it’s both.

I like CAGED too. It’s the system that worked for me. Once I learned the fingerings I kind of blurred them together, but it taught me the alphabet.