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bako, i hope you read the rest of my post--we agree.
Originally Posted by bako
and spacepickle, you're right--conti's a big name in online jazz education, i should have been more clear.
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05-03-2010 07:53 AM
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Well-take his course and you'll find out!!! I don't see how that question could be properly answered by anyone who doesn't learn jazz the way Mr Conti teaches. Originally Posted by elixzer
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it is not JUST his idea, so he claims!!! Originally Posted by billkath
He is saying some of the 'founding fathers' didn't do scales and modes. So obviously i am curious about this, and thought I would ask people more experienced in playing Jazz and its history if this were so. AND what that way of approach to guitar would be like.
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His number one question is Originally Posted by elixzer
Are you? Answer honestly.Are you an intermediate Rock or Blues guitarist
If I said to you-Play Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton-could you? Chords, lead riffs? That Is not even intermediate-it's beginners.Last edited by billkath; 05-03-2010 at 09:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by billkath
No.Are you?
So your saying that what he claims only applies to those who are intermediate Blues and Rock guitarists?
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Originally Posted by elixzer
Absolutely. Look-he's talking about IMPROVING your solo-ing skills and jazz chord skills. His very first questions gives you the things he expects from you to make his course successful. See the ticks beside them? That should be telling you that you need to be at that level.
He expects you to have a basic level of skill-able to play the open and barre chords , know how to strum, be able to get the instrument in tune. He's not expecting you to know all the extended chords-just the basic chords that are basic to playing the guitar-major, minor, 7ths, diminished.
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Alright let me break this down: If he means 'improve' that would cancel out his statement that the very learning of scales and modes is a waste of time; Originally Posted by billkath
As for barre chords--digressing. I was put off cause of the action on my here guitar, BUT since really beinning to get into practising Jazz chords I also now know that the further blocks I had to them before was because the usual kind are 'muddy'. I only heard that term when I learning about Jazz---ie., when they say that most of the usual rock barres hav double root, or 5ths...? And that sounds 'muddy'? Well it DOES, and was not inspiration for brakin my hand in, but like said since hearing and feeling some of these jazz chords I find it inspires me to begin barring, even if its still tough
I know how to strum and tune guitar, and am learning fingerstyle bit by bit
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No it wouldn't. I didn't know scales and modes, and I was still a professional quality rock 'n' roll and country guitar player. Able to play thousands of songs, rhythm and lead. Able to earn my living out of it, and be requested to play on other bands, recordings and for shows.Alright let me break this down: If he means 'improve' that would cancel out his statement that the very learning of scales and modes is a waste of time;
Muddy? It might sound too full in context of playing with big bands or other musicians when everybody is solo-ing all over the place, or where other instruments are there to cover certain notes, but Barre chords are not muddy in and of themselves. They are one of the most basic things any guitar player has to learn. Would you think that James Taylor sounds muddy?As for barre chords--digressing. I was put off cause of the action on my here guitar, BUT since really beinning to get into practising Jazz chords I also now know that the further blocks I had to them before was because the usual kind are 'muddy'. I only heard that term when I learning about Jazz---ie., when they say that most of the usual rock barres hav double root, or 5ths...? And that sounds 'muddy'? Well it DOES, and was not inspiration for brakin my hand in, but like said since hearing and feeling some of these jazz chords I find it inspires me to begin barring, even if its still tough
Look-learning a basic barre chord is GOOD LEARNING. Why? Because through that one shape you can play the bottom 4 strings, or the top four strings, or the middle 4 strings. Or 3 strings. All the rest of the "jazz" barres become easy, because you can barre 6 strings.
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05-03-2010, 10:32 AM #34Baltar Hornbeek GuestBuy his dvd and find out, ...for crying out loud man. Originally Posted by elixzer
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I think the best way to start with improvisational soloing is with "arps plus" where the "plus" is any non-chord tone used as an approach or connection note, or a melodic extension. You just do that by ear, but pay attention to what intervals you are playing so that you can put every note you play into musical context with respect to the root of the chord you are playing over. If you do that, over time you'll end up learning a lot about scales anyway (if you learn what each scales intervallic forumla is). But you'll be thinking about the chord first, then the scale, not thinking scale and then trying to figure out what the chord tones are. That's what leads to the scale/pattern trap. I think too many people think learning scales is some kind of magic mathematical forumula to improvisational fluency. But nothing could be further from the truth. It's actually a pitfall to avoid in my opinion.
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Elixzer,in one of your latest threads I made the suggestion that instead of full bar chords you should learn 6432,5321,5432,4321( i think thats right)chords they should suit you better,to that list add 3 note comping chords and you have got it made.But if you learn all keys in all positions it makes learning these chords easier.
Cheers Tom
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All of this is for nothing, though. Absolutely pointless, if you don't get your guitar set up properly. Could you learn to be a chef without a knife that could cut? Could you learn to be a mechanic without a spanner that turns nuts without stripping the heads? No-you have to get a guitar that is playable. You don't need a new one-just get someone professional to set the guitar up. It'll only cost you 30 bucks, and is a better spend than any old book or course you can find.
I can't see why on earth you'd be learning scales, arps, inversions or anything like that when you can't play a 6 string barre chord and the all the basic chords in all the keys. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all. It is the most basic thing.
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Conti is a really good player. But I think some of you are going overboard with this.
I read something by Conti where he said in the "old" days guitarists would hear a nice lick and ask the player how they did it. Then copy them.
So, with that in mind, listen to your favorite player and copy them.
It's basic. Learn by imitation.Last edited by Drumbler; 05-03-2010 at 11:16 AM.
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You don't need to study grammar to speak a language. You pick it up as you go, and become fluent through constant listening and practice. We all spoke before we could read or write. Music (being a form of language) works the same way.
Circling back and studying grammar (theory) will enhance your skill with a language, and allow you to be more creative and eloquent. My choice is to balance study of theory with listening, mimicking and experimentation.
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This sounds interesting what you say Goofsus4, It makes sense (i think....) That you feel chords first, NOT scales THEn chords, and from chords connect with intervals that pertain to root of chord? Originally Posted by Goofsus4
Whats the "scale/pattern trap"? give an example? Habve you experienced this trap?
So anyway, you emphasize chord tones, yes?
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05-03-2010, 11:56 AM #41Baltar Hornbeek Guest
floun·der 1 play_w2("F0198800") (floun
d
r)intr.v. floun·dered, floun·der·ing, floun·ders 1. To make clumsy attempts to move or regain one's balance.
2. To move or act clumsily and in confusion. See Synonyms at blunder. See Usage Note at founder1.
n. The act of floundering.
[Probably alteration of founder.]
Elix...find a teacher
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Yes, this is the way I'm doing it and it works really well imo. I'm no teacher, but I think Goofsus4's method is a good ticket to early-improvising in jazz.
The objective is to learn the maj7, m7, dom7, dim7 and half-dim 7th arpeggios all over the neck, but you can do this in bite-sized chunks by learning the maj7, m7 and dom7 first, and all within a few frets. That will get you playing over a ii-V-I progression and spelling out the chord changes nicely. Then start adding other notes that approach the arpeggio notes by a half-step (one fret), so that you're hitting arpeggio (chord) tones on the downbeats and other notes on the upbeats.
In addition, just for fun, you can see where all the 3rd and 7th tones are for a ii-V-I progression, and then try to hit either of those on beats 1 and 3 or even just beat one. Then, on beats 2 and 4, and all upbeats, do whatever you like (within reason!).
But if you just learn the first three arps I mentioned it will give you a big boost when you see you can improvise and that it sounds good. Just spend some time learning the arps. In fact, you can do an awful lot with just arpeggios, by superimposing the arpeggio from a different chord over the chord in the progression.
imo, don't get bogged down at the start with some fancy learning techniques or theories. Just learn arpeggios. You will need to learn the fretboard anyway.
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That sounds cool advice abracadabra
I have been studying the chord tones of C major all over neck last few days, so.
Some of the chords are SO beautiful they trance me out---which is all good too
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Mr. B,
I was responding to a long line of posts in many threads on the mode/scale vs chord tones vs licks discussions and not to your post specifically. I didn't intend to single you out as a representative of the scale/modal haters society. I think your 2 posts are well presented and open minded. Sorry, I guess that it is not immediately clear if I just think a thought without including it in my post.
Best,
Bako
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i figured, bako, i just wanted to make sure.i typed my post about five times trying to make it sound non-confrontational--it wasn't intended if it read that way.back to the post: i get the whole "learn by imitation" thing, but when does it move beyond that? when do you sit down analyze the "why?" of a line? maybe it's the teacher in me, but i'm way too big on the "how" and "why" of things to leave out learning about theory.
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Quite a philosophical question. I imagined after reading that ,asking Django 'why that line?'--what he would say? Would he not 'understand'? I dont mean that in anyway suggesting that your question is too superior, but more that it could be like two worlds. Because maybe to a Django the line IS the why. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So it is not a question of versus your way to his, but the context you are in---someone who is brought up with theory may feel that pull, and someone who is more imitation, and natural discovery, that is hers or his.
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The player that has the gift being " a natural " only comes along every now and again.Us mere mortals have to do it the hard way.Practice Practice and then some more.learning scales aids the natural side of things and gives us sounds that we can link with our ears and hands.Muscle memory so you can for eg sight read and play at the same time, you try it, having to look where your fingers are going to play and then keep time as well.It will also allow you to find your own musical voice and not just follow other people.Without trying to upset any one most snotty nosed teenagers with a guitar and some Tab can learn the odd lick here and there.But there will come a point when they need more or they will give up.I think my outlook comes from the fact that I want to know the rules first before I break them.
Cheers Tom
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let's face it, there's a lot more--i mean infinitely more, information and knowledge available to us nowadays. This is both a blessing and a curse.quick, name all the other great european guitarists who were django's contemporaries.tough to make a list, right?that's because, while many of the greats learned by listening and imitating, it's a tough way to learn. it takes a lot of time just to get a good enough ear to be even ABLE to transcribe!technology and education have given us a lot, and there's a lot more "good" players out there than ever. There's also just as few truly great ones--some folks are going to have it, a special drive, a bit of natural ability (if you beleive in that), or at least such a strong affinity that they log the 10,000 or so hours needed to be simply "good" and eventually go far beyond that. But that's a rare breed.If we can get past the fact that maybe not all of us will be virtuosos, we can appreciate the fact that we probably CAN be good enough at what we do to A. keep getting better, B. make a living or at least a lifelong enjoyable hobby out of it and C. keep learning as we go. In the end though, because barney kessel learned by copying and playing charlie christian solos note for note only means that that worked well for barney. Any good guitarist would have had a thirst for knowledge, and likely sought any resource available.so yes, transcribe. but yes, learn songs. yes, practice scales. just apply everything you learn--if you can use it in the music you enjoy, then it's worth learning
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The scale/pattern trap is when you have memorized the pattern for scale shapes up and down the neck, but you can't use it to make a good line. I think the reason for this is because people sometimes learn the patterns but don't really know what the pattern means intervallically with respect to the chord they are playing it over, so they can't target specific notes for tension and resolution. They end up just running the scale over the chord and maybe varying the order of the notes from the pattern by ear but without a strong sense of where they are going with it. Originally Posted by elixzer
I never have been seriously trapped by this because I gave up on scales pretty early on, and switched over to just ear based improvisation, then backwards analysis to figure out the theory. I just played over a dom 7, for instance starting with the chord tones (arps) and then adding other intervals by ear until I put together a set of notes that can work with the dom 7. This could be mixolydian, it could be the tritone sub's arp, it could be the minor pentatonic, it could be the altered scale, it could be the major pentatonic with a b5. I'm not saying I never play a portion of a scale, sometimes I run straight up a mixolydian box. But it's my call. I do it because I want to, not because it's the only thing I know how to do because I just learned a pattern that supposedly "fits" the dom 7.
Yes, chord tones (arps) + other intervals as desired to make the sounds you want.
Basically, all I am saying, and I am sure this underlies Conti's method, is just to start with chord tones, and if you want to add the b9, then do it. You don't have to memorize superlocrian mode to just play the b9 when you want to hear it. But after thousands of hours of this, guess what? You end up seeing your own patterns that work over various chords and very frequently that ARE the scales. The scales have "manifested" themselves to you.
It's just another approach, that's all. There is not perfect way, and my methods are continually evolving as I progress. But I just wanted to make music and not spend all day practicing scales so I took this route. I may learn a bunch of scales one day, and it will probably make me a better player. But, I am confident that what I learned from arps plus, will make me better able to interpret and use these tools much more effectively.Last edited by Goofsus4; 05-03-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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I share Conti's viewpoint, but I'm not fond of his playing.
It's my personal opinion that modes, scales, and theory could do more harm than good.
When one is concerned with the theoretical aspect of music, I feel it is easy to forget how it sounds to the ear, and that's what's most important.
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