Jazz chords harder than 'normal' chords?

[wolflen]

Tony..

hear hear..good post

If the attitude of "...your not ready to do that yet.." or anything regarding any subject where some look down on your hunger to learn

and decide that you can't do it. I was told such things as a young boy..music was pure magic to me..how did the musicians know how to do that??

My first G chord was on a super cheap electric at the age of 21 ! (blame Dylan)

My high school accounting teacher said I should try a less demanding subject... For five years I was the finance manager and personal accountant for the founder
of one of the two major credit cards...then the finance manager for a top selling software company in the health and beauty industry

and I wonder how many were deprived of developing skills and talents within their reach

[AaronMColeman]

They are more difficult for most of us for a few reasons. First we just don't use them as much coming from folk/country/blues/rock backgrounds. A standard 4th fret C#m7 barre is not a particularly easy chord, but we use it enough that it's become easy. Jazz chords like C#m7b5 really aren't any harder in and of themselves, and only become second nature when we use it enough. Second, jazz tends to have more chords and more fast changes. Third, typically there are 97 ways to play any particular chord so it's hard to figure out how to play it in the context of the music and other performers.

So it's frequency of use (coming from other musical backgrounds), the speed that they need to change, and the nature of jazz as an ensemble improve.

My answer to "are jazz chords harder" is, no the chords are not harder but the way they are used and our experience with them makes them MUCH harder. However, when you factor in how board I am playing G C D Em over and over, it makes Jazz "easier" since I'm engaged and interested.

[AaronMColeman]

Really depends on how much rote memorization your brain can take.

For me, knowing what notes are in a chord and therefore available is more useful than memorizing a hundred synonyms of rarely used chords. But certain relationships, like the half diminished/m6/rootless 9th chord are absolutely necessary.

I'm thinking more and more in 2 and 3 note clusters these days. 4 notes seems like a lot for a chord.

You made two points in here that I'm going to spend the next few months exploring...thank you! Notes in chords is something I absolutely need to memorize, not always fun but very useful. And simplify the chord. I've been playing a lot with simpler chords and even not developing the entire chord, just focusing on the key elements like 5th, extension, root arrangement where the root is the higher note and the extension is sandwiched in between. 3 note chords really draw attention to the notes you want to highlight.

Little tips like this are what makes Jazz so much fun for me.

[pauln]

You made two points in here that I'm going to spend the next few months exploring...thank you! Notes in chords is something I absolutely need to memorize, not always fun but very useful. And simplify the chord. I've been playing a lot with simpler chords and even not developing the entire chord, just focusing on the key elements like 5th, extension, root arrangement where the root is the higher note and the extension is sandwiched in between. 3 note chords really draw attention to the notes you want to highlight.

Little tips like this are what makes Jazz so much fun for me.

Speaking of "extensions", there is also harmonic extension - use of harmonics. Just making harmonics from the 5th, 7th, and 12th frets, you get something like this (if I got it right):

Pitch in the form of "middle C is C5", then string number - fret number for the harmonic, alternate
Some of the gaps can be filled using the more difficult harmonics on some guitars*

E3 6-12
F
G
A3 5-12
B3 6-7
C
D4 4-12
E4 5-7 6-5
F
G5 3-12
A5 4-7
B5 2-12
C6* (4 - 2 2/3)
D6 3-7 4-5
E6 1-12
F#6 2-7
G6 3-5
A
B6 1-7
C
D
E7 1-5

All guitar players will notice those pitch classes

E A D G B F# ..... the F# being the "extra one"

E A D G B E = E7#9sus4
E A D G B F# = E7#9sus2sus4

*Notice the almost G major scale, only missing the C... that C is C6 (4 - 2 2/3) harmonic formed 2/3 of the way between the 2nd and third fret

[jameslovestal]

Sounds like something they could fix with an hours practice at home.

It could be fixed rather quickly IF my friend wanted to "fix it", but IF I had pushed the point during the jam he would have just said "lets play another song". Then when he goes home to wife and kids and job etc.... he forgets and when we play the song again it is the same type of experience.

I explained to him that the guitar is designed to play such 6th and 5th string root based chords for these very common Dom7 progressions. That one doesn't really need to remember the fret position but instead just NOT to move the wrist OR to move it either to the top or the bottom of where the current chord is at when doing standard progression like G7, E7, A7, D7.

[KingKong]

Well here's an interesting observation, scale length. Normally play on Stratocaster but just pulled my semi hollow (Gibson scale length) out and busted a few chords out on that.

I've got a bruise on my bottom rib but the chords were markedly easier, pleasantly so due to the fingers not having so far to stretch.

Must be the reason jazz players don't go for strats, too hard to play jazz on maybe?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Well here's an interesting observation, scale length. Normally play on Stratocaster but just pulled my semi hollow (Gibson scale length) out and busted a few chords out on that.

I've got a bruise on my bottom rib but the chords were markedly easier, pleasantly so due to the fingers not having so far to stretch.

Must be the reason jazz players don't go for strats, too hard to play jazz on maybe?

Check out the Telecaster LOVE thread here. Same 25 1/2" scale length. My L5 also has that scale length.

[KingKong]

Check out the Telecaster LOVE thread here. Same 25 1/2" scale length. My L5 also has that scale length.

Yeh but most don't. Majority play short scale archtops and semi hollows.

[2bornot2bop]

Hmmm. I never played rock.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yeh but most don't. Majority play short scale archtops and semi hollows.

Majority, yes, but there are enough people playing jazz on Teles for me to not be able to ignore it.

Or consider this: tune your Tele down a half step and then put a capo at the first fret -- instant 24" scale guitar.

[Lionelsax]

Well here's an interesting observation, scale length. Normally play on Stratocaster but just pulled my semi hollow (Gibson scale length) out and busted a few chords out on that.

I've got a bruise on my bottom rib but the chords were markedly easier, pleasantly so due to the fingers not having so far to stretch.

Must be the reason jazz players don't go for strats, too hard to play jazz on maybe?

Width is more determinant than length in that case.
If the neck is too thin you can't play properly unless you fret with your thumb.
When I was younger, I could play easily some special chords on my guitar, I was very skinny and so my fingers.
Now my fingers are bigger... I can't make ring properly the chords I used to play easily.
Remember that sometimes you have to put all your fingers at the same place. If there is not enough room you've got a problem.
If you stretch a lot maybe you play "pianistic" chords but I don't think so.

About scale length, a 7 string is my main guitar, at first I've struggled to play it for a couple of hours.
The neck was wider and thinner at the same time, now it's OK.
Since they don't make 7 string solid body guitars with wider neck.
I'm planning to get a guitar with a baritone scale length (maybe with active pickups) in order to compensate this lack of room to play chords.
Why not fanned frets (multiscale) ? Do people have experience with that ? I'm a bit scared...

[KingKong]

Width is more determinant than length in that case.
If the neck is too thin you can't play properly unless you fret with your thumb.
When I was younger, I could play easily some special chords on my guitar, I was very skinny and so my fingers.
Now my fingers are bigger... I can't make ring properly the chords I used to play easily.
Remember that sometimes you have to put all your fingers at the same place. If there is not enough room you've got a problem.
If you stretch a lot maybe you play "pianistic" chords but I don't think so.

About scale length, a 7 string is my main guitar, at first I've struggled to play it for a couple of hours.
The neck was wider and thinner at the same time, now it's OK.
Since they don't make 7 string solid body guitars with wider neck.
I'm planning to get a guitar with a baritone scale length (maybe with active pickups) in order to compensate this lack of room to play chords.
Why not fanned frets (multiscale) ? Do people have experience with that ? I'm a bit scared...

Hmmm, yes that could be it, the semi hollow does have a wider neck and a flatter fretboard, and yes the rogue chords are ones where the fingers crowd together.

[KingKong]

Majority, yes, but there are enough people playing jazz on Teles for me to not be able to ignore it.

Or consider this: tune your Tele down a half step and then put a capo at the first fret -- instant 24" scale guitar.

Yes you could do that but it would I) be wired and ii) throw your playing out by everything being a fret higher.

So it's probably this, a minority of guitarists have maybe long thin fingers, can do chords easily on and like the sound of a tele, so they go for that. Most others go for a semi hollow or an archtop, either for the easier chords work and / or the sound.

It is simple logic that if jazz is easier to play on a particular type of guitar then that will be a factor in some people's choice to use it.

[Litterick]

Telecasters seem half-finished to me: a kit-form guitar with too much timber and not enough curvature.

[KingKong]

Telecasters seem half-finished to me: a kit-form guitar with too much timber and not enough curvature.

That was the intenion of the design. Basically a piece of wood with strings on, I think it's original market was working country musicians who needed something that wouldn't break easily and could handle beer being poured over it.

I've never really played one, but it has the shap edges that dig into the chest so not really keen.

But anyway, back to the original point, when I pulled the semi hollow out it was so much easier to finger chords on that I've been playing it more since. In spite of how uncomfortable it is to play when I've been used to a Stratocaster for so many years.

[Liarspoker]

and ii) throw your playing out by everything being a fret higher.

But you were the one that said that you just move a tune up or down the fretboard so that you don't have to practice everything in every key?!

Ps just playing devil's advocate

[KingKong]

But you were the one that said that you just move a tune up or down the fretboard so that you don't have to practice everything in every key?!

Ps just playing devil's advocate

Yeh, actually shouldn't be a problem then!

[Lionelsax]

Scale length shouldn't be a problem, they say it's about the tone, with some EQ there should not be difference.
About comfort I don't think it changes something, it's a minor difference.
I was complaining about my fingers, sure a wider neck is better but when I know it's thinner I adapt my way of how I feel the instrument.
I wonder what someone like Robert Conti should say about that.

[KingKong]

Scale length shouldn't be a problem, they say it's about the tone, with some EQ there should not be difference.
About comfort I don't think it changes something, it's a minor difference.
I was complaining about my fingers, sure a wider neck is better but when I know it's thinner I adapt my way of how I feel the instrument.
I wonder what someone like Robert Conti should say about that.

I can only go off my own experience, the semi hollow is significantly easier than the strat to finger jazz grips on. Has a wider neck, flatter fretboard and a shorter scale length, one or all of those things is the reason.

Who is Robert Conti?!

Nah, all this 'i need an archtop because of the tone' that jazz players spout is just an excuse!
Bottom line is that they ain't got the skills to play a long scale guitar!

[Lionelsax]

Nah, all this 'i need an archtop because of the tone' that jazz players spout is just an excuse!
Bottom line is that they ain't got the skills to play a long scale guitar!

Choose the right colour, it's important.
Sure, it will sound better !
Don't take a Super 400 or kind of copy.

[Liarspoker]

Nah, all this 'i need an archtop because of the tone' that jazz players spout is just an excuse!
Bottom line is that they ain't got the skills to play a long scale guitar!

When I play out I play an Ibanez AFJ85 with flats and my repertoire consists of light jazz, classical, pop, Irish etc all solo fingerstyle guitar.

I can't tell you the amount of times that people have complemented my tone. Perhaps the reason is that they are used to hearing solid body guitars strung with rounds?

Currently I only have a tele solid body but much prefer to play my semi hollow and hollow body Ibanez guitars and that is purely because of the neck as the tele has a Lollar CC neck pick up so sounds great.

[Christian Miller]

I think KingKong might be angling to take Ragman's gig on JGO....

[KingKong]

When I play out I play an Ibanez AFJ85 with flats and my repertoire consists of light jazz, classical, pop, Irish etc all solo fingerstyle guitar.

I can't tell you the amount of times that people have complemented my tone. Perhaps the reason is that they are used to hearing solid body guitars strung with rounds?

Currently I only have a tele solid body but much prefer to play my semi hollow and hollow body Ibanez guitars and that is purely because of the neck as the tele has a Lollar CC neck pick up so sounds great.

I'm being flippant, I totally get the tone thing.

[Christian Miller]

Tone is for filthy rock and rollers with their treble and sustain.

Look, what you want as a jazz guitarist is basically a sort of dull thud. The more it disappears into the band mix the better.

[Lionelsax]

I think KingKong might be angling to take Ragman's gig on JGO....

What means JGO ?