UNDERSTANDING music

[elixzer]

Hi everyone

I have now picked up my guitar again, and am hoping to really understand what I am doing now rather than robotically following tabs etc where it can be easy to follow patterns for fingers but not get to understand what music is, which is of course hwat I want to do

I would like to (I sing a lot also, unacccompanied and love to improvize) sing something, or think something and beign experimenting on guitar)

SO, what would people here say are the vitals to know in order to begin understanding music, so that you know how to construct it. Recently saw some videos by a guy called Scotty at Youtube, and he says how music is a language. He likens the guitar to a typewriter and asks the viewer to imagine coming to a typewriter when not understanding the symbols on the keys, and HOW would you be able to even compose a sentence

Any ideas and personal experiences welcome

[Uli]

Good Morning!
The best thing to do is to get a teacher. Even if you "understand" music, you won't automatically be able to play it. It's hard work, also physically, going round in circles. But it's worth it. It's a wonderful experience after all.
Philosophy might help you to go through it, but it won't help you to avoid practice.

Start with simple tunes like, f.i. "Autumn leaves" and try to elaborate on it.

[elixzer]

First let me make it clear, I cannot afford a teacher. Really! So this is why I am asking at this forum for ideas. I really appreciate that ideas--of getting a teacher--but it cannot be. So I really need OTHER ideas please

As you know there HAs existed good guitarists who never had 'teachers' so. They ALSo didn't have access to paces like Youtube where you can actually see people showing certain things on guitar, and all the amount of info available onine.

So what I am asking is what to focus on to understand music rather than just following tabs or learning fragmented riffs. They have theeir place but I want to be able to know how for example chords are constructed, and how to harmonize, etc etc.

I have downloaded some videos that help with fingerstyle techniques because i personally prefer unplugged and the use of fingers in tthe Classical/Flamenco/fingerpicking Blues styles

And I am trying to learn ear training. I love singing so that helps

I also have been exploring finding the melody of The Shadow of Your Smile at the Chromatic scale at the bottom of the fretboard

So ideas please

[C.A.JO.]

The best thing to do IS TO GET A TEACHER. Studying music, jazz, and guitar can be compared to studying physics, law or any other academia. If someone came and said that they would study these things by themselves I'm sure most people would reply "good luck" (with a hint of petty and irony!). Of course music is only as difficult as you make it. But since your goal is to "understand music", you've set a deep goal for yourself. It can be done, but if you're about to do it on your own I wish you good luck:-)

My second best advice is to acquire the following materials. Hopefully you'll pick something out of it, apply some of it, and my sincere hope is that it'll inspire you to dig deeper into music, wanting to know it all, and find the best teacher you possibly can!

Buy the book "Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" by Michael Miller, some staff paper, "Beginning Jazz Guitar" by Jody Fischer, "30 day guitar workout"-book by Jody Fischer.

The Michael Miller book is awesome at explaining theory on a basic level. (Not that it is simple or anything). This is the kind of book I would give an adult to study from. It explains basic music theory (pitches, rhythm, intervals, scales, chords, key signatures, time signatures), but also more exotic topics like harmony, counterpoint, melodies, etc. Furthermore it contains exercises after each chapter. And that's why I advice you to buy some staff paper. The exercises are great, but you need a lot more practice to learn to read and write music notation (which the book also will show you how to do). But the absolute biggest asset of the book, is the chapter on Transcribing and the accompanying ear training CD. Ear training is the most important skill for musicians to have, and the book and CD will get you started. The good thing about this is:
- you learn basic theory
- you learn how to write it and read it (music notation)
--> and you train your ears to hear what it is you read and write --> you get to "hear it"!!!

The Jody Fischer beginning jazz guitar book will show you how to connect theory and guitar, plus get you going on practicing scales and jazz (some etudes, listening, songs, licks, etc). The last section "Coda" of the book is worth the price alone. He gives you advice for practicing and further studying. Check it out!

Last but not least the Jody Fischer 30 day guitar workout book. A book on technique. It contains a lot of technical advice on a general level. Work through it on a 30 day basis again and again. Use what suits you. There are exercises both for the left hand (grabbing chords, hammer ons, pull offs, finger independence, strength, etc) and the right hand (fingerpicking, alternate picking, hybrid picking, etc.)

Organize your practice. For instance like this:

25% of your daily practice time is spend on technique
15% on music theory
15% on ear training
5% on sight reading
25 % on repertoire (licks, songs, patterns)
15% on improvisation/application

Of course all of this is general advice. I don't know you, and your strenghts and weaknesses. The best practice advice is to "practice to your weakness". The above mentioned materials will reveal your weaknesses. Practice them hard 'till their no longer a weakness! Then something else needs attention, and that's how good musical practice takes place: you practice what's difficult, maintain what's easy, and this cycle changes over time; you nurture it. A good teacher will be the most tremendous help in this matter. He/she will show you your strengths and weaknesses, and he/she can guide you much more specific than I or any other on forum can.

But hopefully you can use some of my advice. I've given it with the best intention. We need more "jazzers":-)

[peterja]

Hello elixzer.

Maybe it could be an idea to focus on chords and arpeggios. Both melody and harmony comes from simple triads, and it´s a not to difficult way to learn by youre self.

This side has a great beginner lesson about jazz chord theory.

It sounds simple, and well..it is, but in time you can understand some pretty complex devices if only you understand triads.

So, learn a LOT of songs.
And by learning I mean KNOW them. Don´t just read them from paper.
You will realise how a lot of songs are based on the same chord movements, like the simple 2-5-1, but there are others to. Try to recognize these movements.
And when something is different from what you know, try to understand why it works. If you se a Db7 were you are used to se a G7, try to explore what chordtones are different between these two chords, and try to hear what it does to the sound.

Also: when learning the melody or just some lick, always try to understand it in the context of a chord. You can pretty easy visualize what chord a certain lick or melody derives from, so even if you learn some "fragmented riffs" you can se them in a context.

It´s not a trick, it still takes a lot of work to both play and understand music, but it´s a great and simple tool to analyze and understand the songs youre learning.

Good luck.

[elixzer]

Thanks for the replies up to now (it would be cool of course to hear other peoples views added to this question I have put, because we are all unique and we all have differerent perspectives. So some people will click when one person says something, and another will click at somnething else).

About teachers. I really really really cannot afford one. But also I have bad experience with teachers. When I was 10-11 i was wanting to learn piano, and was taken to a 'piano teacher' who lived near my mum's friend. She would visit her friend when I had my 'lessons' at the elderly woman paino teacher's house. So what happened was, INSTEAD of getting lessons I would be told all about her personal problems, and my 'lesson' often extended with me being used as her means to gossip.

I have tried a couple of guitar teachers in the past--ones i could afford and they were bad. So the only good ones ARE expensive, and usually you have to travel. So I say once again: NO to guitar teachers!

I am very happy with all the other advice I have gotten and would love to hear other ideas also--as what has clicked with you so that you have deeper understandings of music?

[fivebells]

----

[C.A.JO.]

...would love to hear other ideas also--as what has clicked with you so that you have deeper understandings of music?

Deeper understanding comes from many different perspectives IMO.

The way to view music in my opinion is not linear but more like a living organism. This means you can't just learn point A first, then point B, etc. Music learning and understanding is not a linear process!

The best way to learn and understand music is to work at it from more than one angle simultaneously. To get your fingers, ears, and mind connected!

For instance while working on music theory, you can (and should) apply the knowledge from the book to the guitar. Understanding a concept like scales is quite simple when you read it. The difficult part is to apply that knowledge to your guitar. How do you do that?
We can use an analogy; like when children learn to read the alphabet.
The children first learn all the individual letters by sight and sound. (Translate this to music: you learn the intervals and scales; how they're played, and how they sound). Then the children learn to spell simple words (licks, patterns, sequences, etc.). The next step is they begin to write essays, reading books. They begin to apply it. In a musical context this is where you start to write, create, and improvise with all the things you know.

Therefore to understand music, you need 3 things:

1. Understanding of music on a theoretical level (mind).
2. Knowing how all the theoretic concepts sound (ear).
3. Being able to play what your ear and mind tells you to play (fingers).

Therefore I encourage students to look at all the stuff they learn from these 3 angles: Mind/theory, Ear, and Fingers/technique.

This actually quite simple to do! When you learn a scale for instance; you learn the notes and their connection to each other (theory/mind), then you should practice singing it away from the guitar and with the guitar only given a root note to sing from. (Ear). You should be able to sing the scale from beginning to the end, backwards, sing from the root to each individual interval within the scale). Then you learn the fingering, and train you fingers to play the concept, you now understand, and know how sounds (Fingers/technique).

But the circle is not complete yet. These 3 items only concerns "learning" or "knowing" stuff. These are only tools. Many musicians make the mistake of wanting to know more and more all the time. They develop the ears, the mind, and the fingers, but they never get to use or create something with what they already know!

And that's the fourth step! Application!!! Apply your tools to something musical and creative! Besides learning theory, ear training and technique you should focus on applying what you learn.
Be creative with your knowledge.
The way you do this is to learn songs, licks, and improvise and/or compose your own songs. This is the fun part (and the essence of learning an instrument if you ask me). Neglecting this part of the process, can be compared to children learning new words, and never getting to develop their own language with the new words and grammar they learn! It's pointless IMO.

Working with music from these 4 perspectives simultaneously will give you a much deeper understanding of music than those who're just looking for new tricks, tabs or whatever.

Leave out one of these components and you handicap yourself:
- let's say you didn't give a damn about technique: then you wouldn't be able to play the more difficult parts, which you hear in your head. You may already know what it is you want to play, since you're well-rounded in theory.
- another example could that you didn't care about theory. Then you could possibly play a lot of the music you'd hear in your head, but you wouldn't know what you just played. Understanding theory will let you see things on a more general level, and things you know in one song can easily be applied to other songs.
- the next example would be if you discarded ear training. This is the worst thing to not practice. Music is about expression. If you can't express what you hear in your head, because you simple can't find the pitches or whatever, you're in for a lot of disappointments.
- the last example is about failing to apply the tools you learn. Knowing all there is about theory, having good ears, and fingers and not using it, is a sin you ask me! If your "tools" are in place you need (and want) to use it. Imagine if Picasso just had a lot of colors, canvases, and ideas for painting, but never really painted any of his paintings? Music is an art, and art is about expression. It's a good thing to develop your tools, but if you never use them for something creative, why play music at all?

To sum up:
- Develop your technique to the point where you can express anything you want to. (This level varies depending on each individual, style, etc).
- Train your ears to hear everything you can play, and think of.
- Study music theory (at least the basics).
- Be creative with what you can and know!

This is my advice for those who're looking for an understanding of music. This has helped my own learning process, and many others. It never ends, it can always be developed. I know my points are not specific. But they can be applied to learning songs, theoretic concepts, licks....anything! With these methods in order there's only yourself and time as a limit.

[elixzer]

I have an idea for an interactive kinda lesson--if you will for you more experienced guitarists. Dont know if you will play
This is not changing the subject at all, but is just a different flav at this instance. And depending how you answer could be fruitful

I have like I said been experimenting with finding a meolody line for The Shadow of Your Smile. my favourite version of it is by the great Sarah Vaughn, so I found the root note for srting my melody line but didn't on purpose follow her every note though of course I have listened to her sing it

So I wondered that if I give you some of the starting notes for my meoldy and how I present them will seem naive cause i cant do tabs or write music proper. I can describe the notes in the first? postition Chromatic scale (the one hear the bottom near the keys). And from there wonder if any of you may take this up and do a video of what you do with these notes--HOW you USE these notes to create from this melody line. A video would be amazing, but if not a good understandable reply. Or any ideas you have to broaden my understanding of what I am doing. If you DONT want to play then I will understand. Just thought it'd be fun

here are the notes I have found: (th=string)

(on 6th string) in key of F#, B (5th string), C# (5th), D (open), F# (4th), G# (6th), C# (5th), A (open), G (6th), F# (6th)

repeat-- F#. B, C#, D, F# then B (5th), E (4th), C# (5th) A (open), F#, G (open)

This is where I have got to at the moment

[FatJeff]

OK, so you want to understand music. This is a hefty undertaking. To let you know where I am coming from, I've spent the past 3 years taking undergraduate university music courses, and I feel I'm really only scratching the surface. The more I learn, the more I realize how ignorant I am.

Here are some of the things that you will need to dig into to "understand music":

Learn basic music theory: intervals, triads, 7th chords, basic harmony, rhythm, modes of the major scale. You can get all of this for free at Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net.

Learn more advanced music theory: extensions/alterations/borrowed modes. Various more advanced constructs: Neapolitan chords, augmneted sixth chords, hexatonic and octatonic scales, modes of the melodic minor and harmonic minor scales. Composition.

Learn to play the piano at an elementary level. There is no substitute for the keyboard for understanding music theory. Trying to learn music theory on the guitar (or a violin, for that matter) is much more difficult than using the piano, simply because of the linear way the notes are laid out in front of you on the keyboard.

Learn to read standard musical notation, in both bass and treble clefs (this will come automatically if you learn to play piano). NO TABS. Tabs are a crutch and are the hallmark of the incomplete musician.

Listen to music, transcribe it, and analyze it. Classical as well as jazz. Learn how to do Roman Numeral Analysis on both classical and jazz tunes. This is not a simple thing, and takes quite a bit of music theory, as well as exposure to the various musical devices that are used in the repertoire.

As for actual playing jazz guitar, my biggest piece of advice would be: get yourself a teacher. But since you are citing finance as a main reason not to get one, you might want to consider something like the Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute. It will cost you $20.00 a month - which is an absolute steal. There are other, similar programs...all of which will get you up and running for way less than the amount you're going to have to spend on books, if you decide to go that route.

That's all I've got off the top of my head.

[elixzer]

Hi man thanks. Please you and others dont miss the game I am asking you to play--the post just above yours Fatjeff

When I say understand music this is a deep question. For example if I were to ask you to play lile one of the best Flamenco guitarists how would you respond? COULD you? Could one of the best Flamencos actually do a Delta Blues with the feel that I like? Could the Delta Blues guitarist 'do' Flamenco? So what does this mean? Please tell me

[Goofsus4]

I want to be able to know how for example chords are constructed, and how to harmonize, etc etc.

You just need to learn two basic things. First, learn the theory of how to constuct chords using musical intervals. Second, learn how to harmonize a scale by using only the notes from that scale. For instance:

The intevallic forumula for a Cmajor7 chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 (C E G B)

The diatonic harmonization of the C major scale is:

Cmaj7
Dmin7
Emin7
Fmaj7
G7
Amin7
Bmin7b5

Every chord you want to construct is represented by an intevallic forumla, and every scale can be harmonized into chords with a root beginning on each scale degree using only the notes of that scale.

You can learn these basic concepts from the free lessons on this site or just by Googling for information on these concepts. Check them out if you haven't. Once you know how to create chords by using musical intervals, you can then arrange your own chord melodies. Get a lead sheet, then just arrange the melody of the song on the top two strings, then for each melody note find intervals that harmonize the note into a chord with the same quality as the chord shown for that bar in the lead sheet. In other words, if a particular bar calls for the Am7 chord, then any melody notes played in that bar can be harmonized with intervals from the Am7 chord and it will sound "good." This is a basic approach, but it will help you understand why the music sounds the way it does.

You don't have to abandon tab. Just take that tabbed riff or solo, and analyze each note being played and see what musical intervals the notes represent when compared to the chord being played for the accompaniement at the time. You'll start getting it fast if you take the time to do that.

[elixzer]

you haven't mentioned the notes I presented to this thread for The Shadow of Your Smile
?

[Goofsus4]

you haven't mentioned the notes I presented to this thread for The Shadow of Your Smile
?

Not sure what you mean if you were replying to me. I was just giving you an example of the type of information you need to learn to "understand music." My response was not intended to be specific to The Shadow of Your Smile.

I'm just saying that you must learn the theory about how to create chords using musical intervals and how to harmonize scales before you can really start to "understand" music.

[Goofsus4]

Jazz Guitar Chord Theory

Have you seen these lessons on the site? This is what I was talking about. Check them all out. Most books you buy just cover the same stuff you can get here for free.

[elixzer]

I have an idea for an interactive kinda lesson--if you will for you more experienced guitarists. Dont know if you will play
This is not changing the subject at all, but is just a different flav at this instance. And depending how you answer could be fruitful

I have like I said been experimenting with finding a meolody line for The Shadow of Your Smile. my favourite version of it is by the great Sarah Vaughn, so I found the root note for srting my melody line but didn't on purpose follow her every note though of course I have listened to her sing it

So I wondered that if I give you some of the starting notes for my meoldy and how I present them will seem naive cause i cant do tabs or write music proper. I can describe the notes in the first? postition Chromatic scale (the one hear the bottom near the keys). And from there wonder if any of you may take this up and do a video of what you do with these notes--HOW you USE these notes to create from this melody line. A video would be amazing, but if not a good understandable reply. Or any ideas you have to broaden my understanding of what I am doing. If you DONT want to play then I will understand. Just thought it'd be fun

here are the notes I have found: (th=string)

(on 6th string) in key of F#, B (5th string), C# (5th), D (open), F# (4th), G# (6th), C# (5th), A (open), G (6th), F# (6th)

repeat-- F#. B, C#, D, F# then B (5th), E (4th), C# (5th) A (open), F#, G (open)

This is where I have got to at the moment

I was referring to this. Not one of you have even acknowledged it

[Goofsus4]

I was referring to this. Not one of you have even acknowledged it

Oh, I see. So, it looks like you are trying to create a chord melody arrangement from the notes you've picked out by ear? That can be really challenging. Why don't you Google the chords for the song first, then pick your melody line out in the correct key for that song progression. Then you can harmonize the melody using the chords from the song's progression. But you won't be able to do that very well unless you learn the chord contruction theory first. If others try to create an arrangement for you, then you are back to just learning the song without undestanding the music, so I'm not sure you gain much from it.

My recommendation would be to take a simple song that you have both the melody and the chord progression for, then read those chord theory lessons, then try to contruct a simple chord melody by arranging the song's melody line on the top two strings, then harmonizing the melody with notes that will create voicings that will relate to the song's chord progression, i.e. if the song calls for a Cmajor7 and the melody note is a C at the time, then play the C on top, and then add in the E (3) or the B (7) with it to harmonize the melody note. That's the basic idea. You just do that with the rest of the melody as it moves through the chord progression.

[oilywrag]

Hi Elixzer,If this is the right tune you might find this useful.

Cheers Tom

[elixzer]

Oh, I see. So, it looks like you are trying to create a chord melody arrangement from the notes you've picked out by ear? That can be really challenging. Why don't you Google the chords for the song first, then pick your melody line out in the correct key for that song progression. Then you can harmonize the melody using the chords from the song's progression. But you won't be able to do that very well unless you learn the chord contruction theory first. If others try to create an arrangement for you, then you are back to just learning the song without undestanding the music, so I'm not sure you gain much from it.

I hope I dont seem like an upstart, but the way I see music and especially Jazz is really experimenting. For example, I like to sing myself, and the way I have chosen the notes is that they appeal to me in that sequence. So if someone comes along and says that is 'wrong'--to me that is not cool (by the way I am honestly not bing funny with you. I am just trying to explain my approach) because the way i have doe it is MY way.
But I want to ask you this. When you say about the "correct key" I would have thought that that key would be the note the tune starts on. Like listen here to the first note Sarah Vaughn sings. I hear low f# (at least on MY guitar)---but neverminding what you hear, if say she begins on ANY note then surely that is the key of the song no?

My recommendation would be to take a simple song that you have both the melody and the chord progression for, then read those chord theory lessons, then try to contruct a simple chord melody by arranging the song's melody line on the top two strings, then harmonizing the melody with notes that will create voicings that will relate to the song's chord progression, i.e. if the song calls for a Cmajor7 and the melody note is a C at the time, then play the C on top, and then add in the E (3) or the B (7) with it to harmonize the melody note. That's the basic idea. You just do that with the rest of the melody as it moves through the chord progression.

OK I will look at that. But I also really want to explore what I feel is my creation with the notes I have gotten for The Shadow of your Smile

[oilywrag]

Hi elixzer,From what I have read up to now no-one is saying you are wrong.Just that you are making life very hard for yourself by trying to write a chord melody if you dont know the chords for the song plus I don't think that the first note of the melody tells you what key a song is in one gets that from the key signiture if you have the sheet music or from the chord progession ,once again if you have the music or a good ear for transcription. If I am wrong then fine that will just be some thing else that I have learned.
Hope this helps in your musical quest Cheers Tom

[jack_gvr]

... About teachers. ... But also I have bad experience with teachers. ...

Elixzer, this is a tragedy which has happened to many people besides yourself, to be poisoned by a lousy music teacher in childhood. Yes, it's tragic. Of course, you were a kid, and that's the way it was then - you weren't to blame, you were a kid. Now you're not. Get over it...

I really really really cannot afford one. ... I have tried a couple of guitar teachers in the past--ones i could afford and they were bad. So the only good ones ARE expensive, and usually you have to travel. So I say once again: NO to guitar teachers!

However, your unwillingness to pay for a good teacher also indicates a lack of self-respect, in my admittedly strong (and quite possibly unwelcome) opinion. So you want something for free instead, and you would like us to play games with you online, which no one is willing to do, as you can see.

Please you and others dont miss the game I am asking you to play--the post just above yours Fatjeff

There is a very old saying that applies to your case as much as anything: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." This I have observed to be true. Teachers like to teach good students. Conversely they don't like to teach students who are not committed... putting the money on the barrelhead shows the teacher that you are serious.

So here's the advice, welcome or not:

(1) Change your attitude toward whatever you are doing to make money now, and get it together to make the money you need and want. Virtually everything that a person could desire requires money. Like, a good guitar... lessons... a vehicle to get to gigs... clothes to wear at the gig...

(2) Interview all the teachers in your area, one by one. Ask each for one introductory lesson (pay whatever they ask, out of the hard-earned money you got from step one). Pick the one you like the best, take another lesson, learn one thing from him or her, and go home and practice until you have the money for another lesson.

(3) Make friends with some other guitar players locally, you'll be able to learn a few things just hanging out.

I went to my first and most important guitar teacher when I had been playing for 2 years. I traveled 200 miles to take a lesson once a month for two years. Really. There were other teachers closer - I decided what I wanted. I was 15. I hitchhiked. Don't whine, please, Elixzer, it's embarrassing for the rest of us...

But I want to ask you this. When you say about the "correct key" I would have thought that that key would be the note the tune starts on. Like listen here to the first note Sarah Vaughn sings. I hear low f# (at least on MY guitar)---but neverminding what you hear, if say she begins on ANY note then surely that is the key of the song no?

No, man, you are unclear on the concept here. If Sarah starts the main phrase on F# ("THE" shadow of etc.) then she's in the key of D. You would have to actually know something to know this, so no blame. Reading music helps a lot - I just looked up the chart.

Wishing you all the best and that you find a wonderful teacher.
- jack

[Stringbean]

here are the notes I have found: (th=string)

(on 6th string) in key of F#, B (5th string), C# (5th), D (open), F# (4th), G# (6th), C# (5th), A (open), G (6th), F# (6th)

repeat-- F#. B, C#, D, F# then B (5th), E (4th), C# (5th) A (open), F#, G (open)

This is where I have got to at the moment

There come a time, when studying jazz, that one needs to sit and play with others in Real time music with real time tempos. This is where we can learn our deeper understanding...i think....or, at least you should learn music notation.
music notation is one of the 7 great musical marvels

[Johnny Vee]

one thing that i would do is go to youtube, or anyother website like that and put in
"music theory"
or
"Lessons"

but the one thing that i suggest the most, is to google music theroy, and you will find ricci adams music theory, and it will show you how its done

[Scrybe]

About teachers. I really really really cannot afford one. But also I have bad experience with teachers. When I was 10-11 i was wanting to learn piano, and was taken to a 'piano teacher' who lived near my mum's friend. She would visit her friend when I had my 'lessons' at the elderly woman paino teacher's house. So what happened was, INSTEAD of getting lessons I would be told all about her personal problems, and my 'lesson' often extended with me being used as her means to gossip.

I have tried a couple of guitar teachers in the past--ones i could afford and they were bad. So the only good ones ARE expensive, and usually you have to travel. So I say once again: NO to guitar teachers!

I'd still say get a teacher. Crap man, I've found a teacher and I'm broke, but I've arranged lessons so I can vaguely afford them and am making sacrifices elsewhere to pay for them. Simple.

Thing is, I had music lessons in school. Just theory, didn't teach me a thing about my instrument, or how to apply all that theory knowledge to my instrument. Now, there are plenty of things I can hear or explain, but just can't execute. They also didn't help me with sight reading, so I've got that to do now, too. And when I went looking for a teacher for my instrument, I found some bad ones, including some who probably didn't realise they were bad ones. So I stopped those lessons, looked around for other teachers....researched heavily - I wanted someone with a good teaching record, who taught primarily jazz or had plenty of experience playing jazz, and who could take me through the long haul of doing it right, instead of showing me a couple scales or licks and saying "they'll do fine over a ii-V-I" or something like that and leaving it there. I still have to do a lot of work for myself, learning anything is primarily about how much you put it into it. But, really, if I knew everything I needed to do to become the player I want to be, I'd be that player. As it is, I don't, so I looked for someone who is, and someone who can communicate that to me well.

Understanding music is a pretty vast topic you've set yourself. Even just limiting it to understanding music as it applies to the guitar, it's still vast. Even limiting it to understanding the blues as it applies to the guitar it's still pretty vast.

Plus, as great as resources like youtube may be, there's one thing they definitely can't do, and that's give you detailed personal feedback on what you're doing, where you're at, and specifically which tasks are the best things for you to do right now in order to move forward. A teacher can. And a good teacher will.

Besides which, it strikes me as being a little inconsistent for you to be so strong in your desire not to seek adequate help in understanding music in a thread where you're asking people to help you to understand music.

[elixzer]

Hi elixzer,From what I have read up to now no-one is saying you are wrong.Just that you are making life very hard for yourself by trying to write a chord melody if you dont know the chords for the song plus I don't think that the first note of the melody tells you what key a song is in one gets that from the key signiture if you have the sheet music or from the chord progession ,once again if you have the music or a good ear for transcription. If I am wrong then fine that will just be some thing else that I have learned.
Hope this helps in your musical quest Cheers Tom

See, what would have been good is for one of you to say 'well done!' Ie., to use my ears to get the notes I am hearing for that very beautiful song The Shadow of Your Smile./ That is encourage~ment, and also it would have been fun, and in the spirit OF Jazz for one of you to play the game I was setting and build on what I had offered in a way of exploration for the sheer --if nothing else (if you think it defies proper music)--of the love of CHAOS. Oh well no one wants to play

Another poster said that the song may NOT start on the Key of F# and could reall be D, and then has to add something like 'see, you dont know'. But that isn't really helpful. I am honestly not being funny. I am just really trying to impart my feelings about some of the reactions to what is really a creation of mine, which is a series of notes I have created which is for me The Shadow of Your Smile--MY unique take on it. That AINT Jazz????

Now hey, I know my Mary Had A Little Lamb you'll and I knows that a song can begin on the 3rd, I aint stupid I had momentariliy forgotten

I have heard the prachin for me to go get a teacher and I suppose I can understand some peoples here frustration---that on one hand I claim to want to understand music, and it seems not dedicated to pay for a teacher. Well all I can say is I ALSO gotta eat, and hey have you missed that the times are hard already??!

But besides that this thread is also about the deeper meaning of uniderstanding music, and what this means. A good example---Remember tthe 1970s, and you have the proliferation of 'progressive rock' etc where the guitarists were really overdoing it, posing, and basically boring the pants off many of the kids and then Punk came on the scene and invigorated things, some only using 3 chords, but with an intensity of spirit? Was that not understanding music? If not what was it?