UNDERSTANDING music

**timscarey** · 03-31-2010, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

And there are some expert singers who have no soul

Those notes I gave, anyone who is familiar with that song MUST be able to get the rhythm! And like I said encouragement goes a long way too. To not only give constructive critique but to praise a person's initiative.

As for music being beyond the scope of anyone. Of course. It is a mystery, and all musics and musicians are unique

cool, so you're right, you got the first 2 phrases down. Nice dude, I'm still not sure exactly what information you are seeking. I think this discussion would be a lot more productive if you could be a bit more specific about what you want from us.

It sounds like you want someone to write out the rest of the melody using the same system you used in your previous post. problem is.... you asked about understanding music, and that would not help you understand music.

and no, extremely talented musicians are not that rare, what IS rare is when an extremely talented musician actually puts in the ridiculous amount of time needed to get to the level you are seeking. Anyone can do it. First things first.... realize what it is you are asking of yourself.

**elixzer** · 03-31-2010, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by timscarey

cool, so you're right, you got the first 2 phrases down. Nice dude, I'm still not sure exactly what information you are seeking. I think this discussion would be a lot more productive if you could be a bit more specific about what you want from us.

Thanks

what do I want? Well I wanted to know how to understand music. I am sure many people like myself want to know that the PRACTICE which can be mechanical-like is doing something. So you need to know what is best to understand music. So that I could say think of a tune---say I got a melody line and then I wanted to do things with it, and improvie etc

2) I like the idea that this thread is ALSO about the exploring deeper meaning of understanding music for ALL of us, novice and experienced. What does it mean for YOU to understand music? Whats your story. Have you finished the journey? Where you at. So we all can communicate equally?

It sounds like you want someone to write out the rest of the melody using the same system you used in your previous post. problem is.... you asked about understanding music, and that would not help you understand music.

No, the whole reason I began doing what I did is because I thought it a great graduation excercise from doing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Mary Had a Little Lamb, and London Bridge is Falling down which all start on the 1st, 3rd and 5th of the Key as you know. I have been doing that as ear training. So when I came to do the Chromatic sacale I thought it would be fun to try and find notes for MY version --if you like--of The Shadow of Your Smile. by the way I did a little recording of where I am up last night. It sounds alright. it has a very sombre feel but that is the song isn't it. very rich tones.
I had thought some of you would check it out and expand on it
You say that me doing that is no help to understanding music? Well if not that why is listening to Twinkle twinkle?
Let me try and preempt what you may say? that listening to the nursery rhymes helps us hear where a tune begins? But aren't you hearing all the relationshop to the tonal root?

and no, extremely talented musicians are not that rare, what IS rare is when an extremely talented musician actually puts in the ridiculous amount of time needed to get to the level you are seeking. Anyone can do it. First things first.... realize what it is you are asking of yourself.

I meant that geniuses are rare. though of course some people learn quicker than others.

**Gramps** · 03-31-2010, 05:21 PM

"I am sure many people like myself want to know that the PRACTICE which can be mechanical-like is doing something."

Playing scales can be boreing (machanical) but the practice shouldn't be base on just making your fingers fly up and down the scales. If it is you're missing the best part of working on scales. It should be a mental exercise too. When you first start there isn't a lot to think about but as you progress and try practicing those scales over different chords you should be thinking about relationships of notes in the scale, not just can I play it fast, up and down and in at least 4 places on the fingerboard.

Jas.. turned you on to where you should start to really understand how music works (mentally). The major scale. You will use that scale to establish the most probable chords you'll bump into in a song. You'll use it as a base for all of your other scales. You'll use it to create chords and substitutions of chords and why subs work. You'll use it to delve into modes. You'll use it to learn interval relationships, both single note and chordal intervals and on and on.

If you don't have that under your belt you owe it to yourself to start there.

Good luck with your endever.

**elixzer** · 03-31-2010, 05:36 PM

Thankyou.
yes I am actually practicing the major scales, and am trying to understand how the patterns work from the root nots on each string also. I also am COUNTING instead of trying to name the notes on advice from a great guitarist teacher online, though of course being aware of notes. NUMBERING the notes was a real breakthrough for me. Helping me also to move down the neck which I had had problems with before. And also understaning relationship of the intervals 1, 3, 5, 7 etc

A question. I have just watched a video about Music theory about Key Signatures, and he shows a very good diagram about how many flats and sharps are in keys. One part of it he shows how a series will start the sharps, for example, from F# etcetc , and he advises to think up sayings to remember the keys (similar to how you reemember the open strings--I use the elephants anddonkeys etc) and what sharps and how many

Now my question is WHY? IF you know shapes of the major shapes why do you need to know the sharps sequences? get me?

**oilywrag** · 03-31-2010, 05:41 PM

So if you pick up a music score you will know what key it is in.Patterns and shapes only mean something in relationship to the guitar fretboard.

Cheers Tom

**Jas..** · 03-31-2010, 05:44 PM

I love this forum, music is such a deep subject.

I appreciate the older jazz standards, big band and tin pan alley, and I play and sing many of them. I'm really interested in singing - and I accompany myself on guitar .. so I'm not a virtuoso .. I never will be, but I continue to work on scales and modes and improvisation..

My primary interest lies in composition... and the way I see it, the major scale is the anchor ... everything is derived from those roots, if you will.

Embellishment is what drew me to jazz, and because I'm a guitar player, I tend to think in terms of harmonic structure and chords. The melody or improvisation is extrapolated from that. There is so much color in jazz, the nuances in altered chords, substituting chords, extending chords, etc.. just opens the musical cosmos .. that's just the way I look at it.

But even Bach and Mozart and the great composers, when analyzed, can be boiled down to a fairly simple harmonic basis. I view it this way because this is what I was taught by my counterpoint instructor.

I've come to view music as weaving tones, it's like art, you mix the colors you want, to paint a picture. The difference is that we are painting with tones, the tones are the paint and the chords are the mixed colors. Chords are composed of tonal threads, that run through the piece.

It's hard to convey clearly, but that's kinda how I see it, and it works for me.

But, having said that, I certainly wouldn't argue against studying and applying what we can learn from others and from the body of theory that's available, the more we study and practice, the more we will be able to accomplish in our writing and playing.

**Gramps** · 03-31-2010, 05:56 PM

Elixzer,

You won't need to know how many flats or sharps there are in a key if you're not reading music and think about scales as numbers or intervals.

Can you tell us where you are in your learning curve? Do you know how to play a major scale? Do you know how to play a maj7, min7, dominant7, and min7b5 chord? Have you started working on any standards?

This information will help people here point you in directions for progressing.

**elixzer** · 03-31-2010, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gramps

Elixzer,

You won't need to know how many flats or sharps there are in a key if you're not reading music and think about scales as numbers or intervals.

Can you tell us where you are in your learning curve? Do you know how to play a major scale? Do you know how to play a maj7, min7, dominant7, and min7b5 chord? Have you started working on any standards?

This information will help people here point you in directions for progressing.

Hmmm really? I wonder why he would say all that then. I must get back to that to really understand what you mean.

Yes. I can play all the regular chords, Cmj, d, thru to A, and minor chords, and 7ths, BUT I have greatr trouble barring on this guitar (I keep meaning to get another guitar which will have nylong strings, but that is for another thread) so I of course compensate for this dis-ability by wanting to explore fingerings of chords and arpeggios that dont demand the barring with full finger
I am not that familiar with name min7b5 chord

I LOVE using my fingers as in fingerstyle, as is done in Classical, Flamenco, and fingerpicking Blues, AND JAzz (please name me Jazz players who do this please?) etc. But I need of course lots lots lots of experience of that also

**Uli** · 04-01-2010, 01:38 AM

Good Morning!

1. Re. Fingerstyle - here you go:

**Bill C** · 04-01-2010, 02:00 AM

These books aided my understanding of how music fits together ... for me, it takes a long time between understanding this stuff intellectually and really *owning* it ...

The AB Guide to Music Theory Parts I and II - Eric Taylor
The Jazz Theory Book - Mark Levine

On the "spiritual" aspects of music ...

The Artist's Way - Julia Cameron (not strictly about music btw)
The Listening Book - W A Mathieu
The Inner Game of Music - Green and Gallwey
Effortless Mastery - Kenny Werner
The Music Lesson - Victor Wooten

You mention having issues with barre chords. "In person" lessons from a good teacher are invaluable in resolving technique issues like this.

**Jas..** · 04-01-2010, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

Hmmm really? I wonder why he would say all that then. I must get back to that to really understand what you mean.

Yes. I can play all the regular chords, Cmj, d, thru to A, and minor chords, and 7ths, BUT I have greatr trouble barring on this guitar (I keep meaning to get another guitar which will have nylong strings, but that is for another thread) so I of course compensate for this dis-ability by wanting to explore fingerings of chords and arpeggios that dont demand the barring with full finger
I am not that familiar with name min7b5 chord

I LOVE using my fingers as in fingerstyle, as is done in Classical, Flamenco, and fingerpicking Blues, AND JAzz (please name me Jazz players who do this please?) etc. But I need of course lots lots lots of experience of that also

One more word ... you owe it to yourself to learn the chords Gramps was asking you about... m7b5, augmented, diminished, etc.. there are lots of them and they are used frequently in jazz standards. They open up new vistas for your ear .. so you can go places you could not go before .. they really give you more arrows in your quiver, more options for harmonizing .. it takes awhile for your brain to coordinate with your fingers so you can grab chords on the fly .. it's difficult at first, but as you work with them and hear the chord in a song that you like, you will get the feel for them and after your brain and fingers get coordinated, you'll be very glad you did.

Here is a link to a website where you can find words and chords for a large number of jazz standards for free ... the Guitar Guy has provided a lot of value here ... I love this site, and I've played a lot of these .. he also has a list of chords so you can find out how to finger the chords in the songs... a very helpful site for learning lots of jazz standards without having to read or understand theory... it will help you develop the ability to grab these chords on the fly...

Also, get yourself a guitar with the best action and tone that you can afford.. sell your motorcycle you will progress much faster and you will be very glad you did. It will also help you with Barre chords.. you need to be able to wrangle your guitar if you are going to break out of the bag...

For any other readers who don't know this site, I hope you will enjoy it...

Jazz Standards - Words and Chords

**Jas..** · 04-01-2010, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bill C

These books aided my understanding of how music fits together ... for me, it takes a long time between understanding this stuff intellectually and really *owning* it ...

The AB Guide to Music Theory Parts I and II - Eric Taylor
The Jazz Theory Book - Mark Levine

On the "spiritual" aspects of music ...

The Artist's Way - Julia Cameron (not strictly about music btw)
The Listening Book - W A Mathieu
The Inner Game of Music - Green and Gallwey
Effortless Mastery - Kenny Werner
The Music Lesson - Victor Wooten

You mention having issues with barre chords. "In person" lessons from a good teacher are invaluable in resolving technique issues like this.

Good stuff Bill ....

I remember when I wrote my first song.. I was asleep and I woke up about 2:30 AM and sat up in bed, I had been dreaming and suddenly something I had been playing with at the piano had all come together in my head ... I jumped up and went downstairs to the piano and in 15 minutes I had completed my first real song... it was a joyous revelation to me, and when I saw your list of books, I thought I'd throw in the book that I had recently finished which helped me overcome writers block .. the thing I remember most about the book (it's been awhile) was the introduction.. if I remember correctly it was in the neighborhood of 15 pages or so and I wrestled with it for several days before it sank into my dense cranium... but it set me free from trying to force creativity .. it taught me to set a partial work aside if I was blocked, and pick it up again when I felt inspired to work on it .. you know when you're young you try to force whatever bits of inspiration you get, and that can be discouraging if you hit a wall.

The book is unique in that the compiler searched through history and found letters and historical documents outlining how great men like Mozart, Einstein and others viewed or arrived at the creative process; he queried some contemporary 'creators' (Einstein was one, I think) of note and included their reflections also ... a really good read..

Compiled and written by Brewster Ghiselin in Berkeley, California in the 1950's, I lost the book and it was out of print, but I just Googled it and found it at Amazon, so it's back in print and only costs $15.

The Creative Process in the Arts and Sciences... by Brewster Ghiselin

You sound like you might like to check it out..

Best

Jas..

**elixzer** · 04-01-2010, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Uli

Good Morning!

I really wonder why I'm doing this.

Good morning.

Whay are you doing this?

Well you are reaching out, and giving you time free to helping me which I thank you and everyone here for that. But also your efforts and others will help all other aspiring musicians that hook up to this thread titled 'Understanding music', and EVEN if only one was inspired that'd be worth it wouldn't it?

I know for sure that this thread title would be the first I looked at.

it is good to have all of this here

**elixzer** · 04-01-2010, 08:12 AM

I must also explain that I have had huge blocks to analytical approaches to music. Take the 'theory' and numbers etc. Many moons ago when I was going to primary school (Uk pre-highschool young to 11 years old) I was not good at maths, or more so the way they taught it, and I hated school generally, and that doesn't help.
In those days kids wore short pants, and the teachers were allowed to assault children. So picture it, me taking my mathbook sums for nice teacher to mark (she was called Miss Mole, lol) and IF I got any wrong would get slapped on the backs of the legs!!!!!

So you could say I got blocks when it came to numerical and theory type learning which i am trying to get over now with that part of understanding music

**elixzer** · 04-03-2010, 02:00 PM

what do people here recommend. For example, say I am doing scales. Say C majro. HOW much time is it wise to focus on it before then trying triads, and how much them before trying chords. Stuff like that

What do you recommend?

**Scrybe** · 04-03-2010, 02:23 PM

It differs from person to person, and also depends how you are "doing scales"

Baltar Hornbeek · 04-03-2010, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

what do people here recommend. For example, say I am doing scales. Say C majro. HOW much time is it wise to focus on it before then trying triads, and how much them before trying chords. Stuff like that

What do you recommend?

find a

teacher, you need one...seriously

**elixzer** · 04-03-2010, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Scrybe

It differs from person to person, and also depends how you are "doing scales"

One teacher could tell me to do them ONE way and another another. But I am asking this forum for ideas. Ism't that what it is for...? Advice?

Baltar Hornbeek · 04-03-2010, 03:07 PM

this horse has been lead to water, yet he still won't drink

**Bill C** · 04-03-2010, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

One teacher could tell me to do them ONE way and another another. But I am asking this forum for ideas. Ism't that what it is for...? Advice?

Without seeing/hearing you play it is difficult to offer constructive advice on the details of your practice routine.

**FatJeff** · 04-03-2010, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bill C

Without seeing/hearing you play it is difficult to offer constructive advice on the details of your practice routine.

An idea just popped into my head - call me crazy - but wouldn't a teacher be able to tell him this?

**oilywrag** · 04-03-2010, 03:19 PM

What works for one person may not work for another,at the end of the day it is up to you there is no one pushing this way and that you will have to find the method that works for you.You learn because you want to,whoever teaches you can already play(I hope).As good as this forum is you cant beat face to face teaching.I would think that alot of people would agree with me on this.Before you say, I count Brunos and Obergs video lessons as face to face.Hope this helps you

Cheers Tom

**oilywrag** · 04-03-2010, 03:21 PM

Nice one Jeff.Kinda backed himself into a corner now

Tom

**Scrybe** · 04-03-2010, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by oilywrag

What works for one person may not work for another,at the end of the day it is up to you there is no one pushing this way and that you will have to find the method that works for you.You learn because you want to,whoever teaches you can already play(I hope).As good as this forum is you cant beat face to face teaching.I would think that alot of people would agree with me on this.Before you say, I count Brunos and Obergs video lessons as face to face.Hope this helps you

Cheers Tom

That's why I use this site to supplement my lessons.

That, and my teacher would go nuts if I was emailing him every time I had a tiny little question...

While I'm not trying to knock the Bruno/Obergs/etc video lessons, I think even they should be supplement with some form of real-life face to face tuition. Why? Unless you have the time and equipment to record multiple angle stuff in studio recording conditions, there are undoubtedly little subtleties that will be lost by virtue of the medium used. A problem with a certain passage may be a minor technique issue easily overlooked in anything other than real-life format. And matters of tone and dynamics are always easier to deal with when your teacher is stood in the same room as your amp...

Baltar Hornbeek · 04-03-2010, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

what do people here recommend. For example, say I am doing scales. Say C majro. HOW much time is it wise to focus on it before then trying triads, and how much them before trying chords. Stuff like that

What do you recommend?

Here are a few answers...pick which one works for you:
1. 10 minutes
2. 10 days
3. 10 weeks
4. 10 months
5 10 years