UNDERSTANDING music

[Scrybe]

I just worked out how much of my weekly budget has been allocated towards my jazz lessons. It's 35% bare minimum. When you factor in going out to see local jazzers play, keeping myself in strings, tubes, and music paper, travel to my lessons (in another city and I have to use public transport as I have no car), and saving towards an intensive "working holiday" on jazz this summer, it comes to over 70% quite easily. And I gotta eat, too.

But I want to learn jazz and fully understand music. So I'm making some sacrifices to do that. And I'm not complaining one bit about it.

If you want to claim you can't afford lessons, you'll have to do a lot better than that to convince me that you have a point. Times are always hard, and especially so when we make times hard on ourselves.

[oilywrag]

Hi Elixzer,From the point of getting a bit boring,all the guys on here are giving you an honest opinion.Why should I say well done to you I am not your teacher and I dont even know if you got it right.OK times is hard we all know that.There are plenty of good sites on the web giving free lessons,if you ask a question on this site the guys here will give you an answer,it is a shame that you dont seem to like what you where told.Plus 1 for trying to use your ear,I think that you could explain what you want a little better,If you wanted to know what another guitarist would do with your notes fine you got told a chord melody,but he needs the chords as well,to be able to do it properly.I gave you a chord melody Tabbed out(slaped wrist and shame on me )just adding my $0.06 worth to try and help.Ok enoughfrom me when you find out just what you want just ask

Cheers Tom

[elixzer]

Hi Elixzer,From the point of getting a bit boring,all the guys on here are giving you an honest opinion.Why should I say well done to you I am not your teacher and I dont even know if you got it right.OK times is hard we all know that.There are plenty of good sites on the web giving free lessons,if you ask a question on this site the guys here will give you an answer,it is a shame that you dont seem to like what you where told.Plus 1 for trying to use your ear,I think that you could explain what you want a little better,If you wanted to know what another guitarist would do with your notes fine you got told a chord melody,but he needs the chords as well,to be able to do it properly.I gave you a chord melody Tabbed out(slaped wrist and shame on me )just adding my $0.06 worth to try and help.Ok enoughfrom me when you find out just what you want just ask

Cheers Tom

I know I keep saying it, but I promise I am cool. I am not being funny. I am usually direct that is all. I am looking at this from outsider also, if you get me. Like --what would I do if I was talking to someone who said what I did, and so on.
For example IF someone told me they really not only didn't want a teacher but couldn't afford one, I would not push that because it is a waste of time, and I would then inquire what it is they WANT. Because otherwise if you imply to someone that without a teacher theyt cannot dig music that is discouragement.
Didn't mean to see I slapped your wrist. It was more what is the point of dismissing the notes I have gotten by practising ear to then bin my notes for the 'correct version' ? Surely Jazz is not that?

BY THE WAY I really Am getting help with this thread also. I am getting great links which I promise you I will definately checkout

[Jas..]

Ok, I've read enough .... I just jumped down here to add my 2 cents...

First, in order to produce coherent and flexible music takes quite a bit of practice, so pick up your guitar every day and play, so you don't lose ground.. remember, if you aren't swimming upstream you're drifting downstream..

Second, start out with the Major scale ... for simple purposes, c, d, e, f, g, a, b, and back to c ... now go to the piano keyboard and find middle c .. you will find c to be the first white key to the left of the 2 black keys, so every time you see 2 black keys, the first white key to the left of the first of the 2 black keys is c. The key of c is all white notes on the piano, and moving up from middle c to the c above middle c will give you the major scale ..

Third, chords are based upon triads (three note chords) which are composed of the 1st note, the 3rd note, and the 5th note. So C(d)E(f)G .. by pressing down C E G you have a C (major) chord .. by pressing on the D(e)F(g)A .. D F A, you have a D (minor) chord (more on minor and major in a minute) .. do the same with E(f)G(a)B and you have an E (minor) chord .. F(g)A(b)C produces F (major) .. G(a)B(c)D produces G (major) .. A(b)C(d)E produces A (minor) .. B(c)D(e)F produces b (diminished) ...

These are the triad chords derived from the natural tonal relationship of the major scale.

The major scale naturally produces triads in this sequence:

One chord is major (called the tonic, the tonal center of the scale)
Two chord is minor
Three chord is minor
Four chord is major (called sub dominant)
Five chord is major (called dominant)
Six chord is minor
Seven chord is diminished

Look at the keyboard ... there is a black key between c and d, from c to the black key d (flat) is a half step, or half tone .. from c to d is a whole step because there is a black key between them..

Same goes for d to e, there is a black key between them so its a whole step..

On the other hand, when you go from e to f, there is no black key between them, so that is a half step, and when you go from f to g there is a black key between them so that is a whole step.

from c to e, is two whole steps and is called a major 'interval'
from e to g is a half step and a whole step and is called a minor 'interval'

So the major chord is comprised of a major interval and a minor interval, the major interval (with 2 whole steps) is on the bottom half of the chord and the minor interval (with 1 half step and 1 whole step) is on the top half of the chord.

Major triad = 2 intervals - major (on bottom) and minor (on top)

Minor triad = 2 intervals - minor (on bottom) and major (on top)

So for the second chord in the C major scale, D minor, we have:

from d to e is a whole step (there is a black key between d and e)
from e to f is a half step (no black key between them)
from f to g is a whole step (black key between them)
from g to a is a whole step (black key between them)

So we can see that the minor chord (in this case the 2 chord in C Major, or D minor) is composed of a minor interval (D to F) on the bottom, and a major interval (F to A) on the top, or just the opposite of the major chord.

So in the major scale the One chord is Major, 2 is minor, 3 is minor, 4 is major, 5 is major, 6 is minor and 7 is diminished (8 is the octave, to C again, in this case)

Diminished chord is 2 minor intervals, sounds very restless or dissonant and isn't a chord used a lot in Rock and pop, so you don't really have to worry about it until you want to figure out how to incorporate it into the framework of what you want to do musically.

For starters, work on the major scale, apply the tonal relationships which are revealed in C major to any key and you can figure out which chords to play in that key very easily.. these relationships carry over to the fingerboard also ..

So get familiar with the major scale and chords derived from it, and you'll be laying a good foundation for building your musical understanding upon...

Good luck

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Hi everyone

hoping to really understand what I am doing now rather than robotically following tabs etc where it can be easy to follow patterns for fingers but not get to understand what music is, which is of course hwat I want to do

don't be so quick to dismiss the scales, tabs and patterns. you need them, we all need them....especially since it appears you don't have a very strong natural gifted talented ear brain.

[Jas..]

don't be so quick to dismiss the scales, tabs and patterns. you need them, we all need them....especially since it appears you don't have a very strong natural gifted talented ear brain.

By the by, I did not mean to steer our friend away from scales, modes or striving for a deeper understanding of theory ..

Since he cannot afford a teacher I thought it would help to orient him to the visible overview of the major scale and basic chord structure, and the chords derived from the natural scale..

I practice constantly and I'm always looking for something new and different that will open up other musical avenues to me.. we all should.

[fivebells]

When you say about the "correct key" I would have thought that that key would be the note the tune starts on. Like listen here to the first note Sarah Vaughn sings. I hear low f# (at least on MY guitar)---but neverminding what you hear, if say she begins on ANY note then surely that is the key of the song no?

As a general rule, it's the note that the song ends on that matches its key. There are many exceptions of course, because arrangers and singers often like to leave something open and unresolved in the air... but your ear will find that tonic tone and fill it in silently.

I really feel that the understanding you seek is located in the melody and bass line of a familiar song, not in the study of harmonic theory. Not yet.

Putting it plainly, you very much need to learn and play songs at this stage. Don't read theory yet. Start with "Shadow Of Your Smile". Get the melody absolutely straight, sing it, play it. Compare the written version with your transcription of Sarah's individual interpretation. Use the PDF tab that oilywrag gave you to add a bassline, then pieces of chords.

[elixzer]

don't be so quick to dismiss the scales, tabs and patterns. you need them, we all need them....especially since it appears you don't have a very strong natural gifted talented ear brain.

I am not dismissing scales, (I am really learning scales right now actuaklly starting with the major, and all up and down fretboard trying to imbibe the patterns) and I really focussed on learning tabs the other day when I was learning a classical piece. What I meant was that --and quite a few online teachers have also stressed this--there are people (oh I have met them in real life too) who just learn bits and pices of songs, riffs, etc and that is it. They don't proceed and dont UNDERSTAND music. Many end up putting the guitar down. I used to know this woman, all she ever played was E and A minor ad nauseum, though ger right hand stroke was good lol

And errrm what do you mean I don't have a very strong natural gifted talented ear brain?? I reckon I DO

[timscarey]

"understanding" music = impossible, it is beyond the ability of a single person.

Treat it as a language, learn it as such.

essentially what you have done, is listened to someone speaking a foreign language and repeated a few syllables while listening, I don't mean to sound like a republican but.... that's not jazz.

I agree with every response so far on this post. you've just jumped into a huge lake that looked like a mud puddle, it's okay, you'll be fine, just remember....

This is not easy and will never be "understood" by anyone, that's why it's called music theory, because, just like the other sciences it is beyond our collective understanding.... it's art bro.

In response you your game....

you have given no indication as to the rhythm of your chosen group of notes, you've left out most of the information,... and now the problem becomes clear.... communication, how could you expect to understand the meaning jack and the beanstalk if you didn't speak the language it was written in? see my point? I know people argue about theory and ears all the time but my view is this....

you can learn Spanish by living in Mexico for a few years, because you are constantly surrounded by professional Spanish speakers.
Or you could get the Rosetta Stone CDs and learn it in a few years at home (for a price) or you could learn it from the internet (not really feasible).

Music is exactly the same, and just like you had to learn to use your vocal chords by trying every day for hours on end, you'll have to learn to work your guitar strings the same way.

[timscarey]

Any ideas and personal experiences welcome

yep,

play, play, play, play ..... get a teacher, or at least some friends who know more about music than you do. playing with other people is really where it's at, recordings can serve close to the same purpose.

get a teacher.

[elixzer]

"understanding" music = impossible, it is beyond the ability of a single person.

Treat it as a language, learn it as such.

essentially what you have done, is listened to someone speaking a foreign language and repeated a few syllables while listening, I don't mean to sound like a republican but.... that's not jazz.

I agree with every response so far on this post. you've just jumped into a huge lake that looked like a mud puddle, it's okay, you'll be fine, just remember....

This is not easy and will never be "understood" by anyone, that's why it's called music theory, because, just like the other sciences it is beyond our collective understanding.... it's art bro.

In response you your game....

you have given no indication as to the rhythm of your chosen group of notes, you've left out most of the information,... and now the problem becomes clear.... communication, how could you expect to understand the meaning jack and the beanstalk if you didn't speak the language it was written in? see my point? I know people argue about theory and ears all the time but my view is this....

you can learn Spanish by living in Mexico for a few years, because you are constantly surrounded by professional Spanish speakers.
Or you could get the Rosetta Stone CDs and learn it in a few years at home (for a price) or you could learn it from the internet (not really feasible).

Music is exactly the same, and just like you had to learn to use your vocal chords by trying every day for hours on end, you'll have to learn to work your guitar strings the same way.

And there are some expert singers who have no soul

Those notes I gave, anyone who is familiar with that song MUST be able to get the rhythm! And like I said encouragement goes a long way too. To not only give constructive critique but to praise a person's initiative.

As for music being beyond the scope of anyone. Of course. It is a mystery, and all musics and musicians are unique

[Uli]

I think this discussion is mainly based on a misconception of what Jazz is all about. Of cause, it's a lot about improvisation. Of cause it has a lot to do with empathy and feeling. Of cause, it's about spontaneity and freedom.
The trouble is: You can neither base it on these notions exclusively, nor is there any possibility to learn it that way.
It's a craft. You have to know the rules first, than expand or even trancend it.

There might have been natural talents who could neither read nor write music and have managed to create their own style out of it (like Django Reinhardt). But, honestly, I have my doubts whether those have really been as illiterate, musically, as their biographers would like to have it.

I presume that all of us have very often been at a point where they had enough of studying their "playing arpeggio X over chord substitution Y while remembering that the tune is actually written in Z". We are all eagerly searching for a back door into the Jazz paradise, which is, as I think - with all respect - what you mean by "understanding music".

If somebody ever discovers a loophole, please give me a hint!

Meanwhile, best regards from out of Eden.

[elixzer]

The other day I came across this video by Marty Friedman

who encourages not getting caught up in learning scales...! he makes his own up, and says this gives a unique feel to his playing. I find that exciting! Ie., that someone is doing that. Although I am now personally furiously really into and enojoying scales practice which I admit to having shunned in the past as beyond tedious. But I read at this site that 'learning scales is THE best way to become a guitarist' and that somehow encouraged me.

But I also love that heretical advice from Marty too. When I first watched the video it coinicided with my sudden interest in learning scales LOL such is life. And I suppose I had same fears bof being caught up in the mechanical-ness of the scales trip.
Funnily enough I saw another guitar lessons video yesterday where this tutor reads out messages from people who would like him to focus a lesson on a skill. The letter said that he had memorized all the triads and voicings for guitar but fely OVERWHELMED so much so he just couldn;'t dig what to use for his pieces

WHY should you mistrust Django's skills. Isn't it so that in Flamenco --for example--NO actual music was ever written down as it was originally an oral tradition from Romany people? Same with the Blues

Now with Jazz. Surely there HAS to be a strong element of rebellion right? in order to discover new things...innovation??

[Scrybe]

You have to know what you're rebelling against, otherwise it isn't rebellion. Rebelling is an intentional state.

By Django not being as musically illiterate as his biographers like to claim, I think my fellow poster was suggesting that, even if it wasn't written down, even if Django couldn't explain the harmony using formal language, he certainly knew what was going on, and knew "why this chord here, and not that chord there". Apologies to Uli if I've misunderstood.

Look, I'm just gonna come out and say it - you've come on here asking us to help you learn jazz. Essentially, you're asking members of this forum to collectively be your teacher (which is in itself a little surprising - if you really have something against the idea of working with a techer, based on knowing many bad ones, why do you have such trust in the teachings of a bunch of strangers posting on an internet forum? One of us could even be that piano teacher from back when you were a kid....). When we post with our suggestions (many of which have come from pros, all of which have come from people who've seriously dedicated themselves to this music for varying lengths of time), you've been pretty adamant that you'll only listen to the advice you want to hear. Which really does raise the question - why ask for advice? On top of that, you keep telling us how we should respond to you - that we should be praising you more and encouraging you more, that we should be composing chord melodies for you based on scant musical information, etc.

Since being a member of this site, I've found (both reading responses to my posts, and reading responses to other people's posts) that people on this forum will generally fall over themselves to help you out if you have a question. And they're pleased when you figure something out, whether they've helped you with it or not. My experience of jazz locally has been the same - pros have given me a few free lessons (and they're not exactly rich enough to be giving their time away like that), lists of standards, general tips, let me sit in on their gigs, etc., all because they see I'm interested in the music and dedicated to learning it well. But those guys are real quick to avoid people who are disrespectful, of the music or the players. I personally think it's a testament to the seriously good nature of forum members that you've been offered as much help you have been in this thread, given how hard headed you're being in your posts.

Imvho, jazz is a collaborative enterprise, as is a teacher-student relationship, and right now you're refusing point blank to enter into that spirit.

I reiterate my earlier piece of advice - lose some of the attitude, and then find a good teacher to work with. It's the best thing you can do.

[elixzer]

I feel you are really misunderstanding me, and also have not read what I have said before. For example two important things I have said in messages above. I VERY much am thankful for all the links that have been given me here and will check them all out, and I have said more than once that i am not being funny, I am cool. That means that I am not being disrespectful, I am just direct, and love asking questions and exploring because music and musicians greatly interest me So I am sorry if you read me wrong, there is nothing else i can say to mean what i say

As for another misunderstand where you presume I am ANTI-guitar teacher? lol of course not. I am eating Up the guitar videos available online especially at Youtube. I think it is revolutionary--truly--that now we can have such a VARIETY and diversity of guitar teachers, all different styles and ways of going about learning. And I also wouldn't be asking questions here if I was anti teachers would I. No, I am just cannot afford getting a guitar teacher and am happy with what is avialable online and forums like this.

So I hope this makes where I'm at clearer for you?

[Scrybe]

uh, I didn't presume that you were anti-guitar teacher. you said yourself that you didn't want a teacher because you'd had bad experiences with teachers in the past. as for not being able to afford one, I'm proof that it's possible, no matter how tight money is, as my earlier post attests. if understanding music isn't sufficiently important for you that you'd pay for it, I suggest a little more courtesy in asking people to give for free what you don't value enough to pay for.

and, for the record, whether you're being disrespectful or not isn't really for you to judge - that's something that is judged about you by the people you interact with. I think the way you have conducted yourself in these posts has been highly disrespectful, of jazz in general, and of the people who've posted. hence my increased respect for those who've demonstrated persistence and patience in offering you advice.

I have read all the posts in this thread, more than once. That's why I waited before posting as I did.

[elixzer]

uh, I didn't presume that you were anti-guitar teacher. you said yourself that you didn't want a teacher because you'd had bad experiences with teachers in the past. as for not being able to afford one, I'm proof that it's possible, no matter how tight money is, as my earlier post attests. if understanding music isn't sufficiently important for you that you'd pay for it, I suggest a little more courtesy in asking people to give for free what you don't value enough to pay for.

and, for the record, whether you're being disrespectful or not isn't really for you to judge - that's something that is judged about you by the people you interact with. I think the way you have conducted yourself in these posts has been highly disrespectful, of jazz in general, and of the people who've posted. hence my increased respect for those who've demonstrated persistence and patience in offering you advice.

I have read all the posts in this thread, more than once. That's why I waited before posting as I did.

your entitled to your opinion, but your mis-judging will not change me to something you want me to be

[Uli]

I am totally in line with what Scrybe has said about the spirits of this forum.

However, as things seem to have calmed down a little: Take your "rebellious" energy or whatever it is and try to turn it into something creative.
But meanwhile: try to learn the basics.

Believe me, I had (maybe even still have) a similar drive. Luckily, I found a very good teacher with a Buddha-like patience who, when confronted with another great "interpretation", usually reacted like "Well, that's nice. But you've got to know the chords".
It might be discouraging sometimes. But your spontaneity, good ear and creativity is not what you have to elaborate on, if you already have it. Learning, unfortunately, is mainly about the things you don't know. It's sometimes also about listening to things that might come unwanted.

So much for Grandpa's advice. Time on the instrument, as somebody here usually puts it.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

When I say understand music this is a deep question. For example if I were to ask you to play lile one of the best Flamenco guitarists how would you respond? COULD you? Could one of the best Flamencos actually do a Delta Blues with the feel that I like? Could the Delta Blues guitarist 'do' Flamenco? So what does this mean? Please tell me

A truly gifted and talented musician can navigate different styles with relative ease. The rest of us clunkers are going to need scales, licks, riffs and tricks to help us hear and understand what needs to be said.

[elixzer]

A truly gifted and talented musician can navigate different styles with relative ease. The rest of us clunkers are going to need scales, licks, riffs and tricks to help us hear and understand what needs to be said.

I think truly gifted musicians are most likley very rare. And I am not convinced that a Flamenco could suddenly fet into the FEEL of a Delta Blues guitarists, or vice versa and that not doing so doesn't make either of them a 'clunker'--though I know what you meant. it is because they are more attuned to their style of playing isn't it. As jazz singers may not have that feel of Blues singing and vice versa

Partly this thread was asking for me but it is also asking the deeper question about music.

[Stringbean]

As jazz singers may not have that feel of Blues singing and vice versa

Partly this thread was asking for me but it is also asking the deeper question about music.

You are referring to what is known as "technique". Or, the systematic method to obtain information of a musical nature.

Technique is #6 on the list of 7 great music marvels.

[elixzer]

You are referring to what is known as "technique". Or, the systematic method to obtain information of a musical nature.

Technique is #6 on the list of 7 great music marvels.

That is interesting. Care to elaborate more, and list the other six music marvels?

I was also going to share this with this group and other who may explore this thread. I am watching this video here YouTube - Kanaal van creativeguitarstudio
At about 6:00 he is describing his book about Learning about Learning, and he compares the Knowledge of learning from the Intuition of learning. I think that I have over-emphasized the latter and shunned the former because my nature is that, but now am trying to do scales for example that I always dreaded because of getting bored. I would find a note and trance out when that happened lol. It is all about clicking when the time is right I suppose.
if I was a guitar teacher --from my experience--i would be able to tell signs when someone was TOO 'lost' in the intuitive that was blocking its expression, because of lack of applying the 'mechanics' if you will

[Stringbean]

That is interesting. Care to elaborate more, and list the other six music marvels?

marvel #5 .... KASHMIR

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
With stars to fill my dream.
I am a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been.

To sit with elders of a gentle race
This world has seldom seen.
They talk of days for which they sit and wait
When all will be revealed.

Talk an' song from tongues of lilting grace
Whose sounds caress my ear.
But not a word I heard could I relate
The story was quite clear.
Whoa-ohh-oh
Whoa-ohhh-oh-oh

[Bill C]

A truly gifted and talented musician can navigate different styles with relative ease. The rest of us clunkers are going to need scales, licks, riffs and tricks to help us hear and understand what needs to be said.

I'm not so sure. A symphony orchestra playing show tunes? A jazz guitarist playing like Albert Lee? A pop singer singing opera? ... very different disciplines. I'm of the view that you have to be deeply immersed in a style to be seriously good at it.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

I'm not so sure. A symphony orchestra playing show tunes? A jazz guitarist playing like Albert Lee? A pop singer singing opera? ... very different disciplines. I'm of the view that you have to be deeply immersed in a style to be seriously good at it.

I think any decent jazz cat should have no problem at all sitting in with the Albert and his band. But, yeah I agree with you.