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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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11-15-2021 02:48 PM
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What I meant was that I found the exercise assigned to you as overly cerebral and unmusical. It is an exercise that feels more suited to someone who already has a good foundation but needs more technical proficiency to add interest and complexity to their improvisation.
My mistake was that I assumed your instructor was also at the music conservatory. Music conservatories have a reputation of being overly focused on technique. It seemed a reason for an instructor, steeped in the hyper technical culture of conservatories, to assign such an exercise.
Now I understand your position better. Is it reasonable to assume that you are relatively young, perhaps even in your teens? Having just seen my nephew go through the process of applying to music school I sympathize with your challenges. I feel that the exercises you have been given will likely lead to frustration --in fact HAVE led to frustration.
If the goal is be able to play three standards to apply to school, may I pass on advice given to my nephew that I thought was quite good:
Find three standards you really LIKE. Listen to a bunch of Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra versions of standards on YouTube until you find ones that make you tap your toes or hum the melody. Figure out how to play along with them with the music knowledge you already have. Take note where your minor pentatonic just doesn't produce a reasonably good sound and find a teacher who will get you through those spots with some other ideas or suggestions. Don't worry about being more "jazz" than that.
Make sure you are making music, not just reproducing exercises. If you can play along with your favorite standards with energy, groove, and genuine enjoyment you will be far more likely to be admitted than if you have the ability to play scales at 260bpm. Leave the more technical stuff for the conservatory where you will likely get your fill.
I hope that helps.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
What i do in that situation is just trail and error. Or figure out wich notes are used in that typicall chords and see if something good turns up.
I still don't really know what i am doing but after a while you get braver in following your gut feeling.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
I see what your point is and thank you for the time it took you to give me that excellent advice!!
And no, I am actually 46 now but try to find a new challenge in life. I used to give priority to sports when I was younger and after quitting I had to find a new goal since I am a person striving for new adventures.
I loved (and still do) to listen to music as soon as I get out of bed and I thought that learning an instrument could be fun. I picked up the guitar some 10 years ago I guess and now I am here. I really want to enter this conservatory and be able to live...breath music as much as possible!!
I really don't know if I'll succeed but (please forgive me this somewhat dark view!!) I'd die unhappy if I would not have tried!! Motivation and time are there but I know that there are limits at this age...I'd be happy to learn new things every day and have a good time hanging around with other musicians.
Writing this makes me feel I missed something when I was young...
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Originally Posted by Marcel_A
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
It's just that the world doesn't stop turning if i hit the 'wrong' note. If i use pentatonics on something rock or blues orientated, i don't know what i am doing, but it sounds great. Thats because i did it so often that i pretty much know what to do and where to do it. It's an aproach that doesn't work for a working jazz player i guess, but for me it works fine.
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I hear a lot of advice here. Advice just makes things complicated and it's often given freely because that's easy to do.
Keep it simple. That's what I say. Look at the masters and do what they do:
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Originally Posted by rsoby
There are three ways, I think, to learn to do this.
Most common, I suspect, is learning a fingering pattern for each arp. If it's any comfort to you, I can play all those arps but I couldn't learn them from fingering patterns. That method works poorly for me.
Another approach is learning where all the notes are on the guitar and then learning the notes in the arps you want to play. Then, you know exactly which notes you want and where they are.
A third approach is to learn the sounds of the arps AND learn how to play the sounds you hear in your mind. That way, you know the sound of the next note and how to find it on the guitar. I don't know if this can be learned or if it just develops over time.
I did it the second way. I couldn't do it the first way.
So, I'd say, find the best way for you and have fun with it. I might mention that I still enjoy practicing arpeggios after 56 years playing.
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So you’re an adult, educated as well it seems, and have been playing the guitar for 10 years.
You ought to be about ready if you want to work hard, or you could focus on technique (scales, chords, and arpeggios) as well as heads and comping to tunes, for about six months and come back to this same place stronger.
But just know that people start to learn jazz improv through the blues, easy modal, or easy standards, and Autumn Leaves falls into the last category. It has been used for decades as an early vehicle for improv studies, yet everybody here is just certain that it’s too much. They also seem to think that diatonic scales and basic arpeggios are a bridge too far. You’ve been playing for 10 years, so is it or not? Up to you to find out.
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It also helps to know what the entrance/audition requirements are, and what is expected in the first two years at least. Knowing these things helps you prep for being a music major. Look at the entrance requirements but look beyond them too.
One way to look at it might be - evaluate what it will take to get in, stay in, and graduate when you’re a freshman in high school. In other words, four years in advance. Don’t just look ahead at the next ten feet, look ahead at the next ten miles.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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It might be worthwhile to join the Jazz Blues study group here.
It starts with simple comping and soloing with the minor and major pentatonic / blues scale.
It sounds like that the group is a better entry point for you to playing jazz than your teacher.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Can you sound good on it while playing guitar or not?
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These days there is so much to know about practicing jazz. There are books, CDs, internet - Youtube...etc.
There are also interesting advice from teachers and masters on youtube.
You have to choose and work and play live.
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Originally Posted by Liarspoker
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It is not required to earn a Grammy on one's first explorations of jazz tunes. They won't anyway.
Theory compromises/simplifications are allowed/used as well. Some of it (improv training) is about taking steps, moving on, getting better. One comes back to some of the same tunes as a different player later on.Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-17-2021 at 12:19 PM.
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Such a strange thread. On one hand "Autumn Leaves" is too much... on the other we're recommending Bergonzi's pentatonics book (or are we... I can't even tell).
For what it's worth I think Autumn Leaves is a perfect tune to cut your teeth on. The "theory" is not complicated:
A: Resolve to major, resolve to relative minor
B: Resolve to minor, resolve to relative major
Form: AABA
Yes there's the stuff going to Eb (if played in Bb/Gm) but you can ignore that.
Agree completely, you don't need to win a grammy and analyze it to death. Just play simple ideas with good time.
I made the following a while ago. Probably too much noodling to demonstrate the above, but maybe I'll do one that's just really simple. Learn the notes in the chords, learn how they resolve, fill in some blanks, don't run scales.
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I really don't think there's a "prerequisite" to learning a tune. Especially something like "Autumn Leaves." And if all you can play is the melody and one shape for each of the chords, FINE. Jazz is music, not theory.
Yeah, there's a lot to learn, but it doesn't have to be linear, like "do these 4 steps and then you're ready for Autumn Leaves." The jazz player has to be able to manage a few pots on the stove at the same time.
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Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
You are ALL right that my jazz journey will probably be a life long learning process. Small steps is THE way to go and you guys really help a lot when I observe your playing. Most of you are NOT playing music for a living but it sounds really good to my ears...so this motivates me even more...
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Originally Posted by rsoby
The reason I mentioned him and Bergonzi initially is that I see their work as *building* on previous knowledge for most jazz beginners, rather than starting from scratch. There's a greater intersectionality of guitarists who know pentatonic scales vs those who know 4-note arps. Re. Bergonzi, 1235 patterns also have a strong jazz heritage as not merely a beginner hack, but more as important vocabulary motifs. (See Giant Steps 1235's etc).
It's a personal interest I've had for several years now: the single degree of separation between pentatonic scales for entire key signatures vs pentatonic-of-chord-of-the-moment as an entry point to more chord tone -type soloing, even outside of jazz. I used Wild Horses with some of my students several years ago to teach some of this, as that tune easily demonstrates the limitations of key center pentatonic alone.
Anyway, when you talk about 'arpeggios', 1235's and minor 1345's are somewhat like pentatonic analogs to traditional 4-note arps, as you can use them over multiple chord types etc, and that's a primary Jazz distinctive: chord tone soloing. "You can't just play a minor pentatonic over the whole thing" is a very common concern for folks starting out.
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there are excellent players out there that just play the guitar, no theory nothing, just grabbing da damn thing by its neck and playing expressing what YOU FEEL INSIDE, building on that, how to express YOURSELF
if you play by ear you will eventually know what is where you will get familiar with it, its just the nature of all things in life, practice makes perfect, you will eventually suck less and less but the feeling is the same because its just expression what you feel inside at the end
then there are players on the other hand that read whats in front of them and play by that, or learn the theory first and make sense out of that,
if you‘re a being that loves to improvise by nature, learn stuff by yourself, is eccentric, i suggest you try the first thing i mentioned above, improvisers, the moment they THINK about the notes or the scale they want to play, they mess up, because you‘re utilizing LOGIC, and not the Groove in your Soul in this very moment of flow
- if you‘re a being that learns in general by consuming things from the outside, or learns easier when others teach you how to do it, then keep learning that way
peace
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False, but a common perspective. You can still play freely if you have music knowledge and you can express yourself worse without knowledge than with it.
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I dimly recall an anecdote about Les Paul regarding reading or theory or some such visa/vis how much. "Not enough to cramp my style..." was his response.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by rsoby
You've got these things, so he wants you to learn how the chords work each other.
It can be very musical and impressive.
Imagine if he said, here you can play a pentatonic on these chords, on the other part, you can play this scale...
No, you already do it, he believes in you, prove him you can play.
A lot of guitarists are lost in jazz tunes by playing tricks and pattern that come from nowhere. OK blues scale, yeah I'm good ! Where am I now ? Oh it's not a blues, let's play this pattern I learnt, oh ! It doesn't work. One, two, three, four, five, six, oh yes I know, I was on the wrong fret, let's go, it sounds good but which notes am I playing ? I don't know.
You are on the right way, he just shows you how a saxophonist should work.
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