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Anyway I think I made my point. The way you look at that line will influence and inform the way you develop it.
we do get a bit hung up on ‘the right way’; I think there’s a lot to be said for developing *your* way of understanding... but since you base that on the music itself and ideas you pick up along the way you’ll always be relating it to something real... it’s not just self indulgence.
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07-16-2020 01:33 PM
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Yes. My OP expressed my frustration with not being able to comprehend many of the posts dealing with theory in this forum. I hope to gain some type of insight in these posts to apply in my own playing. It wasn't the knowledge of theory I was seeking... it was knowledge of playing music, musical understanding, what works well musically.
What came out in my posts was a frustration in the lack of sophistication in my sound. By being able to understand the discussions in this forum, I was hoping to add something to my own playing. What I'm finding is that reading about how to play music only goes so far and has little to do with actually improving one's vocabulary and the ability to express oneself.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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We seem to have hijacked zigzag's thread...
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Originally Posted by zigzag
I think what might be useful would be if you could show us something you don't understand - say, a lead sheet, or a chord progression, or something like that. A real example would be good.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
To address your point, though, I've revised the PS in my original post from "CST is not theory" to "CST does not encompass all of music theory".
Best,
SJ
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Originally Posted by zigzag
In a recent thread about Someone in Love, I wrote what I thought was a somewhat pithy analysis of the tune.
Later in the thread, I made a video of a two chorus solo -- during which I thought about nothing I had written. Further, I don't think there was anything whatsoever in the solo that really related to my prior analysis. That is, the theory gave me nothing useful whatsoever.
There might be an argument that theory had informed my practice so that I was able to play a solo at all. That might be right. But, I still ended up thinking that I was convincing myself that reading theoretical statements and abstruse analyses of tunes wasn't going to make me a better soloist in the foreseeable future.
Yet, I am aware that some excellent players have profited from learning and applying theory. And, I have myself, to a limited degree.
But, overall, my advice, based on my path (and acknowledging that many better players did it differently) would be this.
1. Learn to play melodies that are in your mind, instantly. Play along with everything you hear to build this facility. You need to get to the point where you can play a random melody you know starting on any fret/finger/string.
2. Scat sing and play that.
3. Then, when your lines start sounding stale, judiciously pick up and apply theory. Or just listen to music you like and play like that.
a. Know what a tonal center is.
b. Know the notes in the chords you use and where they are on the neck, instantly.
c. Practice tunes that require only major and natural minor scales and chord tones. Watch your time feel, make sure everything swings.
d. Adjust notes that don't fit by ear. So, for example, when you have a iim7b5 V7 im, you know how to stay on chord tones.
e. Eventually, you'll need melodic and maybe harmonic minor and their obvious applications.
f. There's lots of other theoretical or analytical material which can help, but you have to sip from that ocean. One tiny idea at a time. For example, if you can't hear the b9 on a V7 chord, practice putting b9s in your lines. Then do it for #9s, b5 and #5.
I think it's important to recognize that there are often posts on line which may require two years of work to master the material and, afterward, you still won't know any tunes. I recall a post on another forum about triad pairs against bass notes. There are multiple kinds of triads, each of which had to be played in conjunction with every other triad, in every combinations of keys, and then every combination of six notes against every bass note. How many combinations is that? What use is it to somebody who can't make a Bb major scale sound like jazz against a Bb major chord?
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Originally Posted by BWV
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Originally Posted by zigzag
Theory and books are useful in their place (I know a lot more theory now), but I still think learning by ear from the source was the most important element for me.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by BWV
It might be interesting, if you could find, a person totally unfamiliar with traditional Western harmonics and start them in this method.
The scale is a byproduct not an inspiration. It comes about after the 12 tone chromatic scale is bisected by three diminished chords.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm in an anti-theory mood. How is knowing that it's a bebop scale (if you keep the E) helpful in any way?
It's like that thing that got discussed about playing from Bb through a C7 to a C#. Sure, it works. So do a zillion other things. I don't see how it's more helpful than recognizing that if you're playing on C something and moving to A dominant something, if you want the sound of the third, it's the C#. So, if you're feeling the potential landing on that sound, you can find your way to C# with any decent melodic statement.
Now, if the idea is to train your ear so that you can hear the shift to the A dominant sound, then fine. But, there's nothing magical about that line, played in a bebop scale or not. And, the fact that the bebop scale comes out even rhythmically implies that you're going to play the entire scale. Are you? If you're making melody and not running scales, it strikes me as irrelevant.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-16-2020 at 06:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by zigzag
Anyway, as we were saying, if you've got an example of the sort of thing you find difficult, that would be good.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Well done! You noticed a thing.
I'm in an anti-theory mood. How is knowing that it's a bebop scale (if you keep the E) helpful in any way?
It's like that thing that got discussed about playing from Bb through a C7 to a C#. Sure, it works. So do a zillion other things. I don't see how it's more helpful than recognizing that if you're playing on C something and moving to A dominant something, if you want the sound of the third, it's the C#. So, if you're feeling the potential landing on that sound, you can find your way to C# with any decent melodic statement.
Now, if the idea is to train your ear so that you can hear the shift to the A dominant sound, then fine. But, there's nothing magical about that line, played in a bebop scale or not. And, the fact that the bebop scale comes out even rhythmically implies that you're going to play the entire scale. Are you? If you're making melody and not running scales, it strikes me as irrelevant.
So, bop scales are a trope of jazz, even in Louis solos. They pop up a lot. It makes sense to have a name for them and 'bebop scale' (a term I dislike) is popular in edu. But ultimately it really doesn't matter, however seems to you a convenient way to understand the language and concepts of your favourite players is fine. You aren't taking any exams.
Transcribe some horn players and get back to me...Last edited by christianm77; 07-17-2020 at 06:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by zigzag
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Originally Posted by Irishmuso
But then I realized that since I'm trying to add block chords to my solos (instead of just my typically 8 note solo), that I do use 3 note chords that based on trial and error I know 'work' but I really don't know them by a specific chord name. I.e. I'm doing what my rocker friends do; just memorized specific voicings that work.
Thus I've been humbled!
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I was really talking about hearing the chord, as in "I don't think of it as a 13th chord when I play it, but if that's the chord I want, then I'll play it," knowing its sound and using it. I suspect that practically everyone on this forum can name the chords they play, even if they have to think about it for a second. Knowing the sounds you want instinctively.
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zigzag -
Show me an actual example of the sort of thing you find difficult. You've said a lot more than the sound of 13 chords.
To be honest, if you have no real examples then it implies your questions are merely general. Therefore they'll have general, open-ended answers.
I think the simple thing is, as I said before, that there are merely gaps in your knowledge - to which the answer is grab a book or look at the internet and start filling in. Otherwise the thing will just drag on without resolution.
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Originally Posted by Irishmuso
I know the theory that I could find good names, but the names aren’t terribly important until you need to write a chart, or talk nonsense on the internet. They are just sounds.
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Originally Posted by zigzag
A 13th is just a colour tone on a more basic chord, that’s how I think of it. So for example if the tune has a G7 chord shown on the chart, I might play a G13 if it sounds good, if it doesn’t clash with the melody, if it voice-leads well into the next chord, etc. But I’ve done that so many times now that I don’t have to think about it, to me it’s just another available flavour of a dominant chord. Same goes with all the other colour tones or extensions available on the chords. Of course with altered dominants you have to pay a bit more attention, but it’s still a matter of experience and using your ear, as far as I’m concerned.
Actually I don’t use that many chords, in fact I got most of them originally out of the Joe Pass chord book. You just try them on tunes and eventually you get to know the shapes and sounds of them, and can use them where appropriate without much conscious thought.
I guess a big part of it is just knowing and recognising the sound of each chord by ear. I know the sound of the 13th extension for example, same goes for all the other chord extensions, colour tones, voicings that I use.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
This is OK so long as I am only playing the 3 or 4 tunes I currently know (I'm a beginner), which I have painstakingly worked out, but it is a bit like reinventing the wheel each time I stumble onto a sequence that works - i.e. working out the chord I hear in my head and not always even realising that that chord is the same flat five chord that I played in that other song because I'm fingering it slightly differently... It's a very inefficient use of time, and as a middle aged man with a kid and a full-time job I have almost zero time!
So I'm making forcing myself through exercises in books and videos called things like 'get to know the fretboard' (finding Vinnie Raniolo & Fred Sokolow teaching materials particularly useful, also the Hal Leonard Swing & Big Band guitar book) because ordering myself to actually mentally note names and shapes and fingerings will ultimately magically create more useful time spent on the guitar in my life,.. if that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
It might be worth adding that in straight-ahead old school jazz guitar that 13th is most likely a melody note, as are most of the extensions and so on you'll find in lead sheets. Most of these traditional jazz chord grips have the extensions in the top voice(s).... when comping extensions will form a new melody line.
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Originally Posted by Matt Milton
Keep learning tunes. As a person with limited time, one's focus should be on playing music. Don't worry too much about learning to improvise... the more you learn the more you'll have to play.
Also, try to learn melodies by ear... It'll seem harder at first, but they stick better, and you'll get better at this.
Fretboard mapping etc is something you can keep on the back burner and it will develop over time, just make it part of your routine.
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If you took many years of lessons, devoted that much of yourself to figuring this craft out, and are still lagging, then the problem is the way you learn. The problem is you. I know, because this was me!
I took, and and only "passed" Music Theory in the 80's in HS with a 65 mark. I could not read music. I could not relate the staves to my brain, to my strings. There was a massive lag built in. I'm a really smart person. I've figured out far more complicated concepts than the letters of A-G. I have been obsessed with music since birth. Why wasn't it coming easier? If I'd devoted this much time to the pursuit of economics, I'd be running the world bank. I am an incredibly fast reader of text, but every good boy deserves fudge was wiping the floor with me.
I never gave music up, I just kept playing new tunes, jamming my pentatonics, working in an arpeggio when I was feeling buck wild. I sat on that plateau from 22 to 47.
Then, in what I now realize was an act that saved me, I went to a doctor, and the doctor screened me for Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. She saw in my narrative all the hallmarks of this condition. She prescribed me a pill. Within a week, I was no longer anxious, I no longer tried to just whip through my days. I was soaking in the life around me like I never had before.
But music. Music was where this has had the greatest results for me personally. I can learn like I never could. I could always flip open a Real Book and follow the time, read the chords. I would figure out the first note of the melody, and "cheat" the rest of the melody by ear. Played hundreds of paid gigs this way. And no one has to believe the following, but I could instantly read music on the first day this medicine kicked in. First day. I was no Stravinsky, like a 4th or 5th Grader, but it was there. All that frustration and all that effort that seemed to go nowhere for all those decades. I hadn't gone nowhere. My brain wasn't absorbing information correctly. Doesn't mean I'm not a brilliant guy, I just had my windows rolled up on life's information highway.
Maybe this isn't the root of your issue. But it must be for someone else out there. All the other rough pieces of life have smoothed out a lot since as well. If your music is suffering, then you know the problem is deeper down. Care enough to properly link your jazz hands to your jazz brain. I was just singing Minor 6 chords to myself, and thinking how crazy that would have been a few years ago. If I could see myself now back then, I would have sworn I got a music professor's brain in a Freaky Friday-incident. Just my two cents. And fifteen other unsolicited dollars, but from my heart, it has really been a miracle for me. Maybe you don't have what I have, but if you want to learn music, and you love it, and your brain feels untrainable, talk to one of these brain docs. Turns out they know their brains.
NGD: 1935 National Duolian
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