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I have a question that I have seen around the forum before, but I wanted to ask again, what is the best way to go about learning scales? I mean would you suggest learning the G major scale in every position, then move on, or just learn all the scales in one position, then move on to the next position. Just wondering, because I am just getting started and it seems a bit overwhelming, and I want to go about this systematically to avoid getting frustrated. Thanks, Noah
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01-29-2010 09:14 PM
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I admit it's been a long time since I sat down and played scales, but I had a couple of scale etude books once upon a time. Maybe you should work backwards: what do you thing are the goals to these exercises?
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I have my students work across the fingerboard..starting with the G scale..
Third fret on the 6th string...second finger on the G..do you know this one?
Third fret on the 5th string..second finger on the C...follow me?
Third fret on the 4th string...second finger on the F..a different pattern now...
Third fret on the 3rd string...first finger on the Bb..another pattern..
Now you have three different fingering patterns for scales...there are more as you may know...advanced students of mine learn 16 different fingering patterns of each scale..scales are where the notes are that you need to learn..
sound ok...then just take each one and move the rootnote up and down the fingerboard to different keys...
It's just one lesson I teach my students..
time on the instrument...pierreLast edited by pierre richard; 01-29-2010 at 11:58 PM. Reason: technical error..wrong finger placement
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Single string, say the note out loud. E string play C major scale, then C dorian, the C7. Say note sas you play them. C D E F G A B C. Do this on all six strings. Always try learning scale horzionally. Vertically will not help you learn/ know. You'll revert to patterns. You also don't need the guitar to learn scales. Take circle of 5ths or 4ths and start. Say out loud the C scale then G scale then D scale and so on Scales are always best worked out off the guitar as well because you want to learn the scales not the pattern.
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It's not even necessary to learn scales.
Just learn arpeggios.
Then jazz phrases built off them.
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The best & most useful FREE scale info available is on
the Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute site.
Somewhere in the free introductory videos you will
find the 'five shapes,' and I believe, a pdf.
Jimmy advertises a 'five shapes' poster. You can glean
plenty from this just by looking at the illustration.
This will give you all the major keys all over the fretboard.
You can also easily extract the minor keys & modes from this.
Is it the end all-be-all? Maybe not but it is the best way
to get started. Try it & good luck.
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Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. I have purchased the book The Ultimate Scale Book , and hopefully this will give me quick access to all the scales I need to learn, I'm tired of having to look up each one on the internet
I have also been keeping up with my practice on learning standard notation, I have learned high E, B and G so far.
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i would suggest starting with the C major scale in open, 5th, and 8th positions.
Then, read about the circle of 5ths and understand what SHARPS AND FLATS are in each key.
learn them one at a time via applying the key signature to your group of 7 letter names.
if you say the letter names outloud as you go through your keys, not only will you learn all of your scales, you'll learn all of the names of the notes on the fretboard.
IMO this is by far the most effective way to learn scales... by how they're spelled.
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As
timscarey Said , you shoud try the C , and i vouch is opinion 
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Look at the scale degrees (the numbers of the notes). This is universal across all keys.
Start with the major scale. Once you have that down, other scales are just variations. By knowing the scale degrees it is easy to flat the 3rd and 7th notes to get a natural minor scale.
Intervals are also easy to spot when using numbers, and building chords becomes obvious.
There is a tool, called the fretboard sliderule, that maps all of this out. You can get one for free here.
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Noah:
I was frustrated myself when trying to learn all the major, minor, dom,etc. scales.
I used Jimmy Bruno five patterns...his fingering protocal is essentially the CAGED system applied to scales. With these five repeating patterns, you learn all your major, minor and dom scales at once. All his patterns start on the low E string and start on the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th note of a scale.
Belive it or not, you can play all 12 keys around the cycle of 5th's with just starting on the G, Ab or A on the low E string.
Took me only a month to learn all the major scales all over the fretboard...and since the major scale contains all the notes of the relative minor and relative dom 7th scales, you actually learn 36 scales...
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Seriously get familiar with the sound of the scale and the letter names/degrees of the scale. I've found this to be the biggest impact thing for me working on scales.
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Here is a perfect tool to view all scales and modes online in one page: Online Guitar Scales and Modes Tool
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It seems overwhelming because you want to learn everything at once (I know this, because everyone does, at first). Can't be done, sorry.
Originally Posted by noahsan
Apart from that, learning your positions is good, no, essential, and any of those CAGED type methods should be useful, but it's only half the story. You need to learn to move up and down the neck, as well. For one thing, that way, you get a better understanding of the intervals between the notes, which are really what give the scale its character. When you are playing in position, these intervals are half-hidden by the string changes.
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I don't think there is any right or wrong way to learn scales, but I found that scales were pretty useless to me until I could visualize the arps sitting inside the scale and could identify the other scale degrees by their intervals with respect to the root of the chord I was playing over. For example, when I first started improvising I went the typical route of learning the minor penatonic in a couple of positions then played over I IV Vs. I quickly learned that I didn't know how to resolve! I could play notes that sounded okay just by playing the scale, but when my mind envisioned a resolution I didn't know which note it was because I didn't know where the 1, 3, 5, 7 really was. So I stopped the scales, and started concentrating on learning my arps. After that, I found that I could use those scales to actually make good lines because I could target notes for resolution instead of just guessing.
So, I guess I'd say that I don't think it matters how you practice a scale, but just always be sure you know that when you are playing it over a particular chord that you know exactly what intervals the scale's degrees represent against that chord.
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I really can't remember how and when I really learned the scales... it's so long ago.
But this is the way I usually recommend (depending on the person):
A major scale has seven modes = seven positions (edit). (There are many ways to position each mode, but it's a good thing to learn a mode with one position when you're starting out learning scales).
1. Learn one fingering at a time (example: the Ionian fingering).
1a. When learning a fingering, learn it two strings at a time, and connect the strings in sets of two.
2. When all fingerings are memorized:
- Play down one fingering(mode), and up the next (mode) through all seven. Afterwards do the same in the reversed order. This is done in all keys for at least a month, 10-30 min pr. day.
3. When this can be done on a beginner level (16th notes, 100 bpm):
- practice the scale in melodic and rhythmic sequences. Change sequence each week. Make sure to practice sequences in all keys!
Step nr. 3 is something you can continue on an on-going basis. Other ideas to mention could be:
- practice the scale on 1 strings up and down the neck.
- practice the scale on 2 strings up and down the neck.
- practice the scale using only legato.
- practice the scale using tremolo picking on every note.
- practice the scale in lots of different rhythms (8ths, swing 8ths, triplets, 16ths, 16th note triplets, 32nd notes, etc...!)
All of these ideas can be used on all scales, all keys.
Basically, be creative and musical with the scale once the fingerings are memorized. Once you know the basic scales (major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, major and minor pentatonic), you can rotate them. For instance I don't really practice scales anymore. But I use as warm ups, and I choose two different every day, while making sure I run through them all on a weekly basis maintaining my technique.
Technical goals to aim for:
- use correct and consistent fingerings
- use efficient picking patterns
- make sure your hands are as in sync as possible
- fret the notes right next to the fret
- don't use more force than necessary
Speed goals:
- this is highly debated topic. I personally believe that scales be a very good technical practice. I've used them for developing legato technique, picking technique, and speed. Speed-wise I had these goals:
- at least 16th notes at: 160 bpm
- 16th note triplets: 110 bpm
Musical goals:
- scales can be boring, and scales be exciting. It depends on your own view of them. A way to make them more musical is to sing along the scale note functions (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1(8)-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, etc). This way you get the theory and the sounds connected with your fingers. When you start practicing sequences continue to sing the scale note functions (1-3-2-4-3-5-4-6-5-7-6-1(8)-7-2-1.... and so on). Along with fingering practice, you should study the theory behind the scales you're working on.
Hope you get some ideas to use out of this!Last edited by C.A.JO.; 04-01-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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I'm afraid that's misleading. I think I see where you are going, you are talking about starting and ending a scale on notes other than the tonic, which is completely valid, but 'fingering' doesn't mean that. Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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My bad. English is not my native language. Of course a scale has many, many, many fingerings. I'm talking about positions. That was the word I was looking for. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
From my experience I think it's best to learn a scales and modes in positions. When a student knows the modes, and the basic positions I show them ways to not think of scales and modes in position, but it's a great way to learn them. So yes, there are many fingerings, many positions for all scales. But a beginner should not try to grasp all of this at once.
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16ths at 100bpm is beginner level? Sorry, I'm just curious, but I would have thought 8ths at 100bpm or 120bpm a better goal/standard for beginner level. Am I seriously underestimating by that much?
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Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize your use of English, I just didn't want the OP to get the wrong idea. But if you did mean seven positions for each major scale, I don't think that's right, either. You can play any ordinary (major or minor) scale in any position: that's 12, not seven. A beginner wouldn't start with all of them, of course, but I don't know where you get the seven from - CAGED is only five. Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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I edited my original thread. The intent was to clear this up. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
What I call a "scale position" or "scale fingering" also can be called a "box" or a "pattern". I'm NOT talking about the fingering positions on the guitar as in open position, 1st position, etc. I'm not talking about the caged system either. You either misinterpret what I'm saying or otherwise I'm not clear in saying what I want.
Like I said above, you can play all modes in all keys in one position on the guitar. But if you organize a scale the way I recommend (for beginners), you organize a 3-note per string pattern for the Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian modes. If we use the key of C as an example we start with the lydian fingering/position/pattern at the 1st fret, the mixolydian at the 3rd fret, and so on... this way a major scale will 7 different patterns which each correspond to a mode. Thats 7 different starting patterns. This is traditional theory, not CAGED or anything else.
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No I don't think you underestimate. Like I said in my post it's a highly debated topic - how fast should you play. There are many threads on the forum debating this, and I think the question should be raised elsewhere than in this thread. Originally Posted by Scrybe
Anything up 'till 100 bpm is beginners level for me. (I measure these things in sixteenth notes.) From 100-140 is intermediate, and anything above is advanced level. Above 200 bpm (16th notes), and you're entering virtuoso levels of technique.
Of course these measurements are my personal opinion. I consider the average tempi of songs, what a beginner or early intermediate player is able to woodshed in a relative short period of time.
Furthermore these levels are only taking technique in consideration. I have met many players who're not beginners for sure, but still they can't play 16th notes in a song at 110 bpm. On a technical level such a player is an early intermediate player for me. Again: only on a technical level! Don't misunderstand this - as I'm sure some will
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Actually, it's not CAGED. It's similar, but I believe the fingerings are different in a couple of places. But more importantly, the 5 shapes are numbered so that the shape number corresponds to the scale degree which the lowest note in that fingering has, relative to the key it's in. That's not true for CAGED. CAGED relies on arbitrary pre-learned "cowboy chord" shapes, and is not as clear, in my opinion. Originally Posted by bass2man
With the Bruno shapes, if you play shape 5, your lowest note (your "starting note", which is on the sixth string) is the 5th scale degree of the key you're in, and it corresponds to the Mixolydian mode (if you want to think of it that way - Jimmy doesn't advocate thinking in modes, though). Shape 6, your lowest note is the 6th scale degree, and it corresponds to the Aeolian mode. Shape 7, starting at the lowest note, you get Locrian, or starting a fret higher, that's the root, so you get Ionian. And so on.
The Bruno shapes are about the best thing I've spent money on so far. They really helped me get a handle on navigating the fretboard. I'm starting to connect them vertically now, as well, moving up and down between the shapes, and it's really amazing how freeing it is.
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+1 FatJeff
These shapes also allow me to more easily learn & remember.
the intervals at every position/key. This is THE rational basic
fingering system.
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I've been playing for over thirty years, English is my first language, and I have only a remote idea what you are talking about. If you mean what I originally thought you meant, starting and ending a scale on a note other than the tonic, why not say so? It's no wonder the original poster is confused with all this invented terminology. Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
Sounds like Greek to me.Like I said above, you can play all modes in all keys in one position on the guitar. But if you organize a scale the way I recommend (for beginners), you organize a 3-note per string pattern for the Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian modes.
Whoa, why? I'm probably misunderstanding you, but you mean F on the 6th string? How do you then go on to get 3 notes on the 6th string, in C? Finger stretches? You're talking to a beginner, here, and you want him to learn a fourth finger stretch in the first position (take note, that's the proper use of the word) up to the fifth fret A. Or are we in second position and the original F was played with a first finger stretch to the first fret? (In any case, I wouldn't expect a learner to do either of those stretches until he had been playing for something like two years, probably a lot more.) Then what? Play up to the F above, on the fourth string? Why stop there, why not keep playing up to the A on the fifth fret of the first string? To the limited extent that I understand them, your seven patterns look like one and the same thing to me, an ordinary C major made unnecessarily complicated.If we use the key of C as an example we start with the lydian fingering/position/pattern at the 1st fret...
This is light years away from traditional theory, unless the meaning of the word 'traditional' has changed as well. But never mind....the mixolydian at the 3rd fret, and so on... this way a major scale will 7 different patterns which each correspond to a mode. Thats 7 different starting patterns. This is traditional theory, not CAGED or anything else.
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