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You mean for instance:
Em7b5 | A7b9 | Cm7 | F7
?
Interesting thing is there is actually a dominant function buried in there, but I'm not sure it helps to know that.
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04-25-2020 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Cm7 | F7 | Bbo7 | Bbmaj7
Cm7 | F7 | Dbo7 | Bb/D
Eb7 | Eo7 | Bb/F
And so on.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Similarly, an A7b9 may contain the notes of the Bb/E/Db/G dim7 but it's a dominant chord, not a diminished chord as we know it. Also similarly, a Bb/E/D/G diminished is a diminished chord, not a dominant. Dim7s are things to themselves.
In your example, it's the A7 which has the dominant function, not any diminished chord. In fact, there isn't a diminished chord there at all.
Soloing-wise, we might be able to run a diminished line over the A7b9 because of the similarity but that doesn't change anything. We could also run an A alt scale up it because it is, in effect, an altered A7.
Part of the problem is there's a difference between a diminished triad and a diminished 7 chord. If the dim triads in either the major or melodic minor scales are extended they become m7b5 chords, not dim7s. Only the harmonic minor has a dim7 (at the 7th degree).
I'm not saying I'm 100% right but personally I like to keep doms and dims separate. It's just a thing.Last edited by ragman1; 04-28-2020 at 04:01 AM.
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Naughty, naughty. Presumably the responses in blue came from someone who wanted their post deleted. They might not thank you for reversing their decision for them!
'What many players do' is their business.
'Nice subs' is true but not factually based.
'Not really' isn't an explanation.
'How is this relevant?' It's completely relevant. Western harmony is tertiary. Chords are derived from scales.
The other points are both personal preferences, not a factual point. There's no law or ultimate authority with music, each one can do what they like. No one will get shot because they invent a new sound or change accepted practices. So I agree with the poster.
But we might get shot for resurrecting posts that their authors want deleted. Unless it was you in the first place, of course :-)Last edited by ragman1; 04-28-2020 at 04:01 AM.
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I've absolutely no intention of getting into an argument. If someone can correct me with fact, I'll be most contrite. But opinions, no.
'Music theorists have struggled over the centuries to explain the meaning and function of diminished seventh chords.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Absolutely. I see one, I play it. I hear one, I use it. They sound nice. I don't care why.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by christianm77
But could you explain why that is "hardly out there stuff", I'm not familiar with that expression.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
See as we are nerding out on diminished chords, I offer up this hand out on common tone diminished chords, that expands what we are talking about in regard to the Idim chord.
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Originally Posted by Roberoo
Bearing in mind most of my musings come from observations of what people seem to play rather than the myriad of possibilities....
Interesting Thing - as far as I can tell, people tend to treat biiio7 differently if it goes to I then if it goes to ii V. The second example is actually an example of hidden dominant function because it goes II7 (iim7) V7, but raise the root of the II mixolydian up by a half step. So in C
D E F# G A B C (D mix)
to
D# E F# G A B C
(Even for Insenatez where we never really get V per se.)
this is iii harmonic minor starting on the 7. The related dominant here is that VII7b9 from Stella. So that’s the connection. VII7b9 moving to (iim7) V7. Diminished symmetry (brothers and sisters)
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If the biiio7 goes to I it relates to a #IVo7 and Io7 much more.
in this case IV7 or VII7 is the most common dominant relationship. Tritone subs. As we get IV7-I we could think of this as the blues resolution. Indeed the I blues scale is a great choice here, especially descending from b5. The chords are very often used to harmonise b3 and b5 blue notes in the melody.
The harmonic minor on V would be the choice that emerges from the Barry Harris approach (IV mixolydian with a sharpened root.)
But I wonder if that’s really a common approach? I would say bluesy ideas, dim arpeggios are much more common in recordings. Or just ignoring that chord or pretending it’s something else. Or the whole half scale (see Bill Evans.)
(Jordan Klemons suggests basing your playing on this chord on the VII triad which does sound great. We can add the b9. Again this contains both the b3 and the b5 of the key. Simple but, clean, modern sounding and effective. interestingly that seems to take us back to iii harmonic minor, but also whole-half. It does for both.)
Other resolutions for dim chords are very rare. There’s only one I can think of off the top of my head:
Cm7 Bo7 Bbmaj7 from Insenatez. Very unusual!Last edited by christianm77; 04-26-2020 at 02:23 PM.
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TL;DR if we are going to use Barry Harris ‘brothers and sisters’ metaphor for the relationship between dominants and diminished it seems to me some are very much the favourites over the others.
Like swapping out Dm7b5 G7 Cm for Dm7b5 E7 Cm as opposed to Dm7b5 Db7 Cm
This is also true of common tone dims
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Other resolutions for dim chords are very rare. There’s only one I can think of off the top of my head:
Cm7 Bo7 Bbmaj7 from Insenatez. Very unusual![/QUOTE]
one other way to see it as a tritone sub..
Cmi7 E7b9/B BbM7
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It's not resolving to Bb because the tune's in Dm. The Bb is just a chord along the way.
There's a descending bass line from Dm in the previous bars:
Dm - Db7 - Cm - Bo - Bb - A7 - Dm
The Bo is just a connecting chord. It could just as easily have been a B7b5 but the trouble with that is that it does sound as though it's resolved to the BbM7 and you don't want that. The Bo gives the feel that there's still somewhere to go.
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Originally Posted by ragman1
But - if you can find an example of this resolution to any maj7 chord in another song subdominant, tonic whatever, let me know. I can’t think of one. Can you?
I don’t care if people can rationalise it with theory; my statement was that it was unusual in the repertoire.
(you can rationalise anything with theory.)
in terms of what I’d play on it, I’d play options from C harmonic minor. Cm - Bb is not that weird really. And this is a very simple flowing approach to that chord that suits the song in my opinion.
I would tend to avoid using the dim chord like this in most situations... feels weak compared to a V7 or bII7. But maybe that’s it’s charm... bridging chord as you say.
there is something very beautiful about that change of colour in that place in that song, that I don’t think really works elsewhere... it’s the sound of that song... but that’s Jobim for you.Last edited by christianm77; 04-27-2020 at 09:11 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
.. but that’s Jobim for you.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
I think that probably what Ken was trying to explain was either the point that I got from the Henry Johnson video and was expanded on very early in this thread or it was a more esoteric mystical thing like Pat Martino's diagrams that, while I enjoy looking at, are far beyond my brain to translate in a practical way.
Thanks for helping me out.
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Originally Posted by Sam b
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Resolution is the move of a note or chord from dissonance (an unstable sound) to a consonance (a more final or stable sounding one).
"Wave"
| Dmaj7 | Bbdim7 | A-7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | G-6 | etc.
Bar 4-5 of Chopin Prelude Op 28 No. 4 in E minor, which I have played for 50 years, bars 4-5 does the Edim to A-7/E movement. Bars 2-3 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 14 goes F#dim7 to F7. Bar 15 Fdim7 to E7. Bar 16 C#dim to A-/C.
Last edited by rintincop; 04-28-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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Chopin Prelude No. 4 Opus 28 in E Minor
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How Insensitive
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Originally Posted by ragman1
It just doesn't sound right if you do it in most situations.
Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 Bo7 | Bbmaj7
In a Rhythm Changes for example, but in the Jobim it sounds amazing.
I suppose that's why music is an artform?
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Originally Posted by rintincop
I'll have to check out the Chopin...
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All diminished uses I know can simply be stated:
Functional:
o Leading note diminished: resolves a half step above. Effectively b9 backdoor dominant
o #IV diminished: Resolves to the 2nd inversion of I (5th on the bass). It's also the same chord as I dim which also resolves to I.
o bIII diminished: Resolves to IImin.
Non-functional:
o As a passing chord: Anytime a diminished chord voices fall between the voices of two chords ascending or descending, throwing the diminished in between usually works in retrospect even if it doesn't correspond to any in the "functional" category. The difference is these chords do not have a meaningful functional (ie secondary dominant) interpretation, so they don't usually get their own measures.Last edited by Tal_175; 04-28-2020 at 08:53 AM.
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