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Hi there,
I wonder if anyone can help with a (probably basic) question about modes. Here goes:
Is it commen practice always to play the mode that corresponds exactly to the chord in question in the current key? For example, if I'm play in 'All the things that you are', the first 5 chords are
Fmi7|Bbmi7|Eb7|Abma7|Dbma7 or
vi7 |ii7 |V7 |I7 |IV7.
Does this mean I should play
Aeolian|Dorian|Mixolydian|Ionian|Lydian ???
or could I also play:
Dorian|Dorian|Mixolydian|Ionian|Ionian ??? ...of course this would mean playing some notes that didn't belong in the key...
A pro once told me that mi7 chords 'are always dorian unless otherwise stated' ... hence my doubt about the subject.
Another 'sub' question. If the first idea is the right one: (Aeolian|Dorian|Mixolydian|Ionian|Lydian), why not just forget about modes altogether and say 'this passage is in Ab major, I'll play the notes in the Ab major scale.'
Yet another question! What is the best way to practice such things? At the moment I'm playing up the (one octave) arpeggio and down the mode of each chord to get them under my fingers.
I am trying to get the basic mode and arpeggio down first- I'm not adding altered tones, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths yet.
Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance
A confused guitarist.
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12-16-2009 05:26 PM
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You can do what you described first above, but you will be playing Ab major over every change, which will sound quite "white bread", and probably not sound very jazzy to you.
The second list is pretty much the same as the first, only you are playing dorian instead of aeolian, so a natural 6 instead of b6. Again, very major sounding. You come to this conclusion on the 3rd pass.
Frankly, I believe modal thinking at this point is not worth much at all. You are probably better served with practicing just arps, and 3rds and 7ths only. In addition, I would strongly recommend copping some ii V I licks you like to give you some starting vocabulary.
From there, it is time to transcribe some of the simpler solos, like Miles on Kind of Blue. You have So What and All Blues, which are great tunes to get ideas from. Good luck
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i would be thinking ab major but as each chord passes by would try to emphasise the chord tones of that chord so that if you then listen to the solo with no backing the harmony is implied this simple bit of information is something i didnt realize for years sorry if you allready knew this but it may help clear this problem up for somebody out there
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are you a beginner? then NO MODES.
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Hi Derek, thanks for your reply. Why do you think modes aren't worth doing at this point? I can play the arpeggios of the chords- I thought the next step would be to mix some passing notes and scale-like material in. I wanted to play solos that are a mixture of both, not just one or the other... just arpeggios sounds pretty limited after a while.
Do jazz players generally think in 'keys' or chords/chord-scales? Dividing a lead sheet up into tonal centres and then playing the corresponding scale seems easy enough- sounds pretty dull though, as if there isn't enough tension. How do you approach a lead sheet? When and why do you think modes, as opposed to simply key centres? Only for altered chords that have chromatic notes etc???
To Mr. B: I studied guitar (just not jazz) and now I'm going in that direction... Could everyone please give reasons for their answer??? Why no modes at this point?
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Personally, I think approaching songs based on modes is horrible way to improvise over the changes. You're going to end up thinking WAY too much, given a moderate tempo and the fact that the chords change at least once per measure. Much better to think tonal centers, i.e. in ATTYA (All The Things You Are), you are in Ab the first 5 measures. That gives you the time, the space, and the room to incorporate some actual melodic phrases into your improvisation, instead of just vomiting up some arpeggios/chord-scales. Way more musical - IMHO, of course. :-)
To me, the limiting factor in this whole modal/chord-scale business is the fact that my brain just goes too slow. I cannot keep up with new-mode-per-measure thinking. What I can do, though, is come up with relatively melodic sounding lines within, say, 5 measures, emphasizing certain tones within that tonal center to imply the underlying harmony. It's a much more intuitive approach and that's just the way I work (which is ironic, considering how linear I am in most of the rest of my life - I'm an engineer). Add in a few passing tones, chromatic approach tones, etc. and it actually starts to sound pretty decent.
Another approach is to distill the melody of the song down to its essential tones, and use those as the basis for your improv. This is part of the method espoused by Ed Byrne's "Linear Jazz Improv" system (and Lee Konitz as well, as I recently found out: Lee Konitz 10-Step Method). In ATTYA, for example, you just have a single note per measure: Ab - Db - G - C - F - B - E. Target those notes while you noodle around by ear, and you might be surprised how good it can sound. This method works really well over standards and blues.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
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First, modes require too much thinking for someone at a beginning level, as FatJeff points out. Second, traditional jazz is not modal, it is arpeggio based more, with chromatics, that is those players were thinking about the chords they were playing, and responding accordingly.
Originally Posted by Fran
Arpeggios and guide tones (3rd & 7th) allow you to take smaller bites, and focus on things like swing and phrasing. I find it is tough for beginners in jazz to make scales swing, not impossible, but tougher. There are plenty of notes in scales that are less important than the chord tones, so focusing on those more important tones helps get this stuff in your ear faster, imo.
Yes, at the point that arps begin to feel/sound boring is the point where you add chromatics. Again, I would recommend you picking up some stock ii V I licks to give you some vocabulary. From there, transcribe guys you like, gaining more licks/phrases. Good luck
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sorry for being so short in my answer earlier--it just drives me absolutely up the wall to see someone thinking modes on ii V I's...i'd personally like to strangle any teachers out there who teach that way as well...
here it is in a nutshell--first, in tiny little chunks like in AATYA, playing the modes over the changes in no way gives you the actual "flavor" of a mode, like a piece like say, "so what" would, with it's long stretches of one chord. here, you're going to hear nothing but one major scale over the whole sequence, which is essentially the most boring and vanilla thing you could do over it! and to make matters worse, it took a TON of thinking to get that boring sound!
when playing standards and bop tunes, it's best to associate each chord with it's arpeggio, that is, the notes of that chord. if you have any association of "arpeggio" with frank gambale sweeping 32nd notes, please throw that away too.
now, Fat Jeff is right on when he suggests against just regurgitating these arpeggios over the given chord--the key is most certainly to think melodically. But arpeggios can be a great road map for doing so, especially when you think about alterations (for a specific example, on the dominant chord) that will give you notes well outside of the mixolydian scale a modal approach would suggest.
i actually think it's very benefical, when learning a tune, to shed like crazy and spend some time running eights over the changes, blowing thru arpeggios as you go. it's beneficial for two reasons--1, it gets that OUT of your system (hopefully) but 2, it can lead to more melodic ideas later on--take that 8 note phrase you just played over that Ab chord...even if it's just blowing, there's likely still some rise and fall, some "melody" to it. what are the strongest notes? play those!
when starting out on a tune, it's very important to know the melody uber alles. You can take whole choruses just playing off that melody....a great exercise is to play the exact same notes as the melody, but in a different rhythmic structure. then, play the same rhythm as the melody, but play different notes--here, you're at least guaranteed good phrasing.
i've been at the guitar for 18 years, and at jazz in one shape or form for about half of that, and while, given a chart, i can hack my way thru a tune right away, i'd still say it takes me 100 times or more of playing a song before i can put all the devices (scales, arps, whatever) away and just craft melodic statements. it takes time to get there--so enjoy the trip!
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Thanks Mr. B. - great advice, especially for me right now. Going crazy over modes when I should just be playing melody/Arps over all the standard swing tunes I play.
Thinking about how quickly the chords go by...excellent point. AND I really like the advice of playing the MELODY, in some form...that's where the song is, right???
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If you analize the melody with the chord changes, you will find this melody to be primarily 3rds & 7ths of the chords. This makes the song a great exercise in embellishing the melody with chord tones and arpeggios along with some arpeggiated substitute chords. If you want to hear a master guitarist approach, listen to Hank Garland's versionof AATYA on "Jazz Winds From A New Direction". It is a jazz guitar classic for ATTYA!
wiz
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wow mr b your a wizard at explaining things i take it your a teacher if your not you should be i had a jazz guitar teacher once who was the best musician ive ever known but he just couldnt get his point across a lot of people think because they can play thy can teach but in my opinion playing is one skill and teaching is another thanks for sharing your wisdom wih us.PEACE.
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nah, i'm just a teacher. howie's the wizard Originally Posted by gingerjazz
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it warms my heart when people like you are prepared to share their wisdom with others as it can sometimes be a lonely journey on the path to musicianship
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well, you are most welcome.
i'm convinced jazz is not that hard, just different. the basics can be taught in 90 days or so. the mastering part takes, well, y'know--the rest of your life!
i am writing a book, and i'll continue working on it over my upcoming winter break from teaching-- it's tentatively titled, "the hell you can't play jazz guitar."
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cant wait for your book to come out keep us informed
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MR b im fascinated by what you said about learning the basics in 90 days .s it posor is sible for you to briefly list what you call the basics Is that too much info to list on here if it is can you at least try to tell us briefly a little bit about your teaching methods
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You'll have to buy the book!
nah, just kiddin'
The basics are just that--pretty basic.
#1, above all, is fretboard knowledge. You should be able to "read" the notes off the fretboard as easily as you read the words on this webpage.
#2 the major scale and it's inherent harmony. You should have all 12 major scales "licked" before ever setting a foot into modes or anything more complicated.
#3 chord construction and spelling. Know those forumulas! for maj7, m7, dom7, m7b5 at a minimum, and then 6, 6/9, m6, 7b5, 7#5, and as many other fun stuffs as you can...
that's the basic basics. I think those can be learned well in 90 days with a good practice regimen. the rest is application...
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thanks right im off see you in 90 days
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So many books/lessons focus on the chord/mode relationship, and either imply or outright state that you can think in terms of modes while playing over any chord progression, that I suppose it just must be an easy way to try and teach the subject, i.e. filling the book up with theory, when all you really need are the three things Mr B states above, at least to tackle bebop and early standards.
What I want to know is: Who has attained some measure of competence in jazz by applying the technique of chord = mode? There must be some satisfied clients of these books! Many of them claim to be a complete method for jazz, so someone must, surely, have gone from zero to hero on just this diet. Anyone out there?
I suspect that many, like myself, have struggled for ages with this, trying to think quickly enough to change the scale every two seconds, before either realising or being told that it's actually much easier that that!
I've only recently come by this epiphany. It was a good moment!
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"the hell you can't play jazz guitar."
I am anxiously waiting....Mr. B is explaining things that I understand immediately.
I'm a classical guitarist, I read well, I know tons of jazz chords and lots of standards. I can't solo for the life of me??? I think it's mode intimidation!!!!
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mr b it looks like your allready gaining interest in your book i have bought lots of books only to find them over complicating things i agree with the coment about people filling up space in books there is definately a a plaxe for your book so please can you write a bit quicker is it out of the question for you to post a preview online to give us a taster . i will understand if this is not practical due to you not wanting your work to be copied etc
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Oh Yeah Mr. B.- give us a taste of what's to come!!
Sailor
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thanks for the interest...
it's gonna be a while yet before i'm ready to present anything, but i'll certainly give a taste to the good folks here...just be patient with me, i'm a first time-author, and i definitely think i talk about and play the guitar a lot better than i write about it!
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Mr. B,
Is this a self-published work? Or do you have an editor/publisher, and all that other fun stuff? The reason I ask is that if you are doing it yourself, I'd volunteer to look over the material you have written, in order to provide an independent set of eyes. (I'm kind of a jazz-book whore - I'll pretty much read and buy anything related to jazz)
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i'll most certainly be looking for "lookovers" once it's done. Originally Posted by FatJeff
i have not looked into any ways of getting it published as of yet. It sort of needs to come out first, to see if it' even worth shopping around...I have some very strong opinions on jazz playing and pedagogy, but really no credentials other than that i'm a normal dude who's a teacher who can play jazz, and i think anyone else can too.
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