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Learning 7th chord inversions and quite a few altered 7th fingering for jazz actually made it much easier to learn classical/romantic pieces on the guitar. Instead "oh crap, how did this passage go exactly" "oh look, thats this m7 inversion fingering right here.
Chord arps helped also the same way. It's much better to remember difficult stuff when a lot of that is already familiar to fingers.
Knowing the theory helps also.
And ears. Try to play by ear a lot - the best tip probably
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04-20-2019 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dwparker
Imagine you were successful in memorizing one... when you play it, what are the things that you are actually recalling from memory?
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I'm guessing you were looking for some evidence based learning techniques for memorization of musical passages. There have indeed been many studies on memorization techniques. I can only pass on one off hand, and only from a non science user's perspective.
Many memorization techniques use the idea of "chunks". Rather than trying to learn long passages note for note, you break up passages into short familiar phrases. Imagine the song is built of Lego bricks. It is easier to remember that the melody is a "blue" brick, two "red" and a "blue" again than to remember sixteen notes. Obviously what you call your short phrases (numbers, colors, shapes, "Bob", etc) is up to your learning style.
For me, four six or eight note phrases work best. Songs often have short common building blocks that get reused across many standards, so they become familiar. Eg. a minor triad ending with natural six, or a 5-4-3-1-3-4 in major.
You can get a primer on "chunking" from Wikipedia here:
Chunking (psychology) - Wikipedia
But science based memorization is a whole world you can lose yourself in. There are even hobbyist who compete learning long strings of information. Melodies are just one subset of the things they memorize. A little online research and I think you will be amazed.
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Originally Posted by pauln
Last edited by dwparker; 04-21-2019 at 08:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by dwparker
My favorite version of "Drown In My Own Tears" has 72 chord changes for each cycle of the three minute long form... internalization of "how it goes" is needed in order to play songs like this... depth and grasp of playing something like this isn't at the "notes" level.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Contrary to what some others might say, this method saves time. The structure of the music gets internalized deeply. A happy byproduct is that you deconstruct the music, and then re-construct it on the day that you play it from first bar to last.
There is also no substitute for sheer repetition, as several people pointed out. Set a goal for yourself, play the piece 10 times a day for seven days for example. It’s amazing how much more musical it becomes once you have overcome the “just getting through it“ phase.
I hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I admit I use a lead sheet a bit too much when learning a tune. Sight reading it is my starting point, the way I lock it in to memory is to...try to play it from memory. I stumble, fumble for a chord or note, but when I find it, it seems to be retained better. I try to mix up inversions, etc. especially with chord solos, because learning by rote memorization can lead to the unintended consequence of "pattern thinking", where you know how to play a song only one way, and not really know the changes. Kind of like learning pentatonic scale patterns and not knowing what the notes are.
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Originally Posted by dwparker
I was always struck when attending a seminar or taking a lesson from a pro, by their ability to pull tunes from memory for illustration.
Inevitably one would say, " you know like the bridge to Stella or Indiana" or something like that and then go on to play it to make some musical point.
So I determined to develop the skill or at least learn the songs they kept referring to.
This skill I believe is in HARMONIC FUNCTION...what is the songs structure, what is it doing and where is the listener going.
Structurally speaking, Autumn Leaves is an excellent example of a completely "circular" tune when seen as written in G6...(view e minor as G6 with the 6 in the base).
From this point, G, the song moves right through the scale : ii-7 V7 I maj7 IV maj7 vii-7b5 III7 (note the only alteration is to make the iii-7 chord a dominant)
vi-7.
The bridge begins on the vii-7b5 moves to the III7 and the circle continues.
The melody is A Dorian mapped on your fretboard.
Now you can transpose to any key on the fly.
Hope that is food for thought.
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I think the guys who can play a zillion tunes in any key are doing it this way:
1. They memorize a melody the same way everybody can sing Home on the Range. Melody just sticks in your mind. Lyrics help. But there's no magic to it. Some people are more gifted than others.
2. Say it's Stella in an odd key. Most of us can sing the melody starting on any note. But, not everybody can play it in any key.
I don't think the pros are thinking of some bandstand shorthand for remembering the chords to Stella. The tune doesn't lend itself to that.
Rather, they hear the sound of the chords in their minds and they're fingers just go there. That is, they can hear the chord type, the interval, the harmonic movement, or whatever. They aren't thinking about using internal language, at least not typically.
How do you get there? I think it's ear training.
I'd suggest starting with a simple tune set IRealPro for 12 repeats changing key by a 4th and don't look at the chart, ever.
At first it might be really difficult, but things usually get easier with time and repetition. Then progress through somebody's list of the must know standards. Easy first.
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I guess there are levels of memorization.
Like, do you have to concentrate and pay visual attention all the way through the tune? Do you need to be aware of the literal notes or pattern or harmony all the time? etc.
Can you be distracted and still not mess up?
Can you let the fingers just go do their thing and yourself just enjoy the scenery? If focusing back to the playing and attempting to make it "more interesting" somehow, are you able to keep the form intact?
Also, with many tunes it's possible to learn them quickly so it seems you got this. But it might be just in a short term memory and could have hiccups when performing the first times. Imo, that's the common source of frustration with attempting to learn many tunes fast. But when it goes wrong, it doesn't mean you're too stupid or slow - it only means that the tunes are not in the long term memory yet.
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I got Bruce Forman’s video on this subject, it’s very useful. Note it’s about ‘learning’ not ‘memorizing’, an important distinction which is covered in the video.
Bruce Forman - Learning Tunes for Jazz Guitar - My Music Masterclass
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I saw this vid recently. Pretty strict, but I bet it works.
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I just bundle a few things here that can help. A few can be rather obvious but maybe not all of those. A bit of extra help and fun perhaps? But don't expect to become a grand jazzmaster by tomorrow night..
Harmony: figure out the functions. Make sure that what you plant in your bones is not already a way too modernized version that will hide strange surprises for fellow musicians. Check your chords against the original melody even if you got the music from trusted source.
And a few ways to give pondering pleasure for your musical brain:
Play the chords, sing the melody
Play the bass notes, sing the melody (its harder..weirdly)
Play the melody, sing the bass notes
Play the chords, sing an improvised solo (doesn't have to be breakthrough or brilliant, just alright)
Play the bass notes, sing a solo
Play/hold the bass notes, play the melody with your free fingers
Play the chords, play the melody (goes to the chord melody territory. even if it sucks at first, the wisdom boost is rather significant)
Sing the bass notes, play an improvised solo while minding the patterns of the scales and whatnot- so damn difficult
Sing the melody and solo, use a backing track (can record one yourself). Good for a long drive.
Play a solo completely by ear, use a backing track. - for me, it was the hardest thing ever to even get it to not sound disgusting. Turns out it's doable with not too much previous experience. Takes a lot.. looot of time though.
Sing the bass notes, play the improvised solo completely by ear, not minding any theory&pattern&scale aids. - hm... can't do it myself yet
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This was just a little extra you could do when having too much time to spend
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Originally Posted by grahambop
That's a great way to say it.
Here's something I have found about that. At home, playing alone, rubato, I can do it fairly well for a tune I can hum but don't automatically know the changes. But, in a loud group at full tempo, I find it a good deal more difficult. Part of it is that some of the rubato solo guitar tricks don't work. For example, I can't slide a bass note into a chord, because I won't be able to hear the slide. There's no time to reflect (prehear something in your mind's ear) on the sound. Other players are doing different and sometimes unexpected things with the harmony, which can confuse the ear. Often, I'm struggling to hear myself clearly and playing louder will screw up the band.
Instead, you have to instantly know the next change, pretty much without thinking. Just as Bruce said. You have to hear your way through the tune.
I have trouble believing that anybody who knows hundreds of tunes is really using bandstand shorthand ("starts on a iim7b5 251, then to the key of the VII" or whatever). Maybe there are people who can keep that sort of thing straight for hundreds of tunes. I hope somebody will speak up if they do it that way.
From watching players do it at functions like weddings where a guest starts a tune in a random key -- and the guitar player doesn't even change the bored expression on his face, I'm pretty sure his hands know where to go. It's like his hand thinks "I'm here and from prehearing the sound of the next chord change, I have to go there". Right from sound to hand movement.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm often amazed at what my fingers and ears remember. 'Can you sing a bit? oh yeah, cool'
You just got a learn a ton of tunes. But melodies... I find them harder to recall.
Some stuff is harder than others. It's harder to remember Wayne Shorter tunes.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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On Learning Music by Howard Roberts
On Learning Music by Howard roberts
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Yeah. Rubato is awesome for a lot of cases. The brain likes to think deep if we just let it do that. Playing/practicing on tempo all the time is like the sayn' "all work and no play made...". Need to be clear what's the current objective. If figuring something out, inventing, checking out new good sounding things - probably maybe rubato then is a better choice. Been thinking about this for a while - really hearing carefully and kinda all-in-focus - can't do that well when the tempo is even slightly above certain threshold (where most music actually works).
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Originally Posted by emanresu
I nearly always practice in time. I might drop time for a few moments to work through problems with fingering mechanics, but once I’ve figured how the mechanics should work, I go back to playing in time. I’m not as disciplined as Katie in following an unforgiving 10x rule. I’m sure I’d play much more cleanly if I did. If a passage is difficult, I’ll often loop on it with a metronome, backing track or foot tap. I tend to focus on one phrase at a time, not one measure at a time.
I’d like to learn to play more compellingly in rubato, but I think it’s best to learn to play the tune in time before spending much time playing it rubato. I most enjoy rubato playing when there is still a sense of time feel, even though the tempo is varying.
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[QUOTE=KirkP;969196]
Originally Posted by emanresu
edit: on the other hand.. the list I put there a few posts back - I dare you to do those on tempo from the startLast edited by emanresu; 07-29-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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Lot's of good feedback, thanks.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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First thing for me, don't learn the tune from a chart to begin with. Learn the melody well, easiest way is to listen to a version with a singer. Work on hearing what every melody note is in relation to the underlying chord, so you can begin to find the chords as well. Simple chords, bass 3 and 7 only.
Consult a chart if need be, but don't rely on it, just memorize things. Then try to play the tune in different keys. Eventually this way you don't need to memorize, but only to know the melody of a tune, and you can figure out the rest.
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For me, the most important stage in learning a tune is being able to hum (or sing or whistle) the melody. If I’ve internalized the melody well enough to hum it and have a chord chart as a safety net I can usually fake it at a casual jam.
I try to learn the changes well enough to play without looking at the chord chart. I usually play more fluidly when I’m not peeking, but it’s nice to have a chart there in case I get off track.
The more I play without looking at the chord chart, the more I find my ear guiding me through the changes instead of my eyes. Of course, a good bass player can also help hear the changes.
Moffa Mithra
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