How to become better at chord comping

[znerken]

I know this has been asked before, however I would like to hear what people think these days.

I just had a session with my teacher, where I comped when he played solo. He told me my comping very quickly becomes very predictable and perhaps almost boring. This is a very good skill to have, but he challenged me to start comping a little more interesting, and perhaps groovin a bit more. He told me to listen to how piano players comp, and how they always use the space to make the comp interesting. For example how Miles' piano player puts in stuff as soon as he hear Miles leaves a moment of silence.

When my teacher comp, I often feel he almost plays what I would call chord melody. He changes chords very quickly and often, so I can hear the melody underneath, and his voice leading is impeccable. I am not too read up on voice leading, so that is just what my ears picks up.

Now of course, during this, voice leading of course came up. So, my question is, how can I practice comping daily. I am more than happy to actually do that, for long periods of time, but I find with comping(as a lot of other stuff in jazz) it very quickly becomes very unsure for me what to practice. Okay, I can listen to records and "learn the language", but I need something a little bit more clear. Is there a golden bible when it comes to comping that I can start using to practice? It often just ends up with me finding either shell or drop 2 voicings to play through the whole standard, hitting the chord twice for each bar. Like this:

(listen from 2:50, that's me playing chords).

I bought the Fareed Haque's Jazz Comping Survival Guide course on truefire based on suggestions on the forum. However, this seems to be at a very beginner level. I haven't watched a lot though, but don't see voice leading even mentioned. For now it's been just
1. Don't play bass notes
2. Don't play extensions
3. Then you have 3 and 7, which you can comp with. Which is like a shell voicing without bass.




I know it's hard for anyone to lay out a written road for anyone on a forum, but I really do appreciate the feedback you guys usually come up with. I would love to be able to have clear instructions for what I should practice. I already know drop 2 and shell chords, and I know how to omit certain notes to create extended chords on them.

[Paulie2]

Some interesting stuff here: http://in.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Linea...%20Voicing.htm

Practice Chord melodies and chord solos. All of that material can then be used by comping. Also open up the real book to a ballad and work on reading a tune you don’t know and harmonizing it as you go keeping the melody on top. All good ways to get more comping material.

[znerken]

She interesting stuff here: http://in.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Linea...%20Voicing.htm

Practice Chord melodies and chord solos. All of that material can then be used by comping. Also open up the real book to a ballad and work on reading a tune you don’t know and harmonizing it as you go keeping the melody on top. All good ways to get more comping material.

That's one question I forgot to ask my teacher, if studying chord melody helps with this. That sounds like a yes, and a good approach then. Then the question is, how do you practice chord melody. Suggestion for books?


What do you define as the difference between chord melodies and chord solos?

[grahambop]

The Barry Galbraith 'Comping' book is pretty good. Be aware though that all the chords are written in notation, no tab or chord grids.

[znerken]

The Barry Galbraith 'Comping' book is pretty good. Be aware though that all the chords are written in notation, no tab or chord grids.

Is there any fingering over the notes like in the Modern Method books?

[grahambop]

Is there any fingering over the notes like in the Modern Method books?

I think there is some fairly minimal fingering similar to classical guitar music, but only where necessary, e.g. string number of the top note and sometimes a couple of LH fingerings. Just the minimum to help locate the chord really. Comes with a CD of the guitar comping with a bass so you can hear it too.

[Paulie2]

That's one question I forgot to ask my teacher, if studying chord melody helps with this. That sounds like a yes, and a good approach then. Then the question is, how do you practice chord melody. Suggestion for books?


What do you define as the difference between chord melodies and chord solos?

Definitely! I meant chord melodies like arrangements of the head (though my teacher hates that phrase. He says piano plays just call it playing the tune haha) and chord solos meaning like improvising over a progression using chords during your solo.

I don't know any books off hand, and am in no way at all an expert on the topic, but what I did was take a tune you know really well, preferably with easy changes. Lets say Autumn Leaves in E minor for the example.

- First chord is Am7. Don't worry about playing in time, or even worrying about staying in four beats per measure. Play every Am7 inversion you know on the neck, starting with the top note on the B string, then on the high E string. Trying connecting these smoothly, again not worrying about time, etc.

- Am9 can also be played by playing C Maj7 chords. Do the same thing.

- Then dig into what that article was suggesting, that every chord can be proceeded by a few different options. Could be same chord half step away, its dominant (E7b9), etc. Try now connecting these Am7 and Cmaj7 shapes with diminished shapes that outline E7b9 for one option, then move on to the next. All this is for just the first measure only.

- Then move on to the V chord in the next bar and repeat the above.

- The good thing about guitar is that all of the shapes are easily transported over other tunes, so working through Autumn Leaves in this manner gives you ideas to play over really most of the chords you encounter in standards (ii, minor ii, V, V of minor, I, etc)

[Paulie2]

Forgot to add drop 3 chords and all their inversions are available as well. I typically use these more if comping for another guitar player or horn player in a duo and less of in a combo with bass

[coolvinny]

Listen to how players - guitar and piano - comp for bass solos. There is much to be learned there and it is easy to pick up what they are putting down. Practice comping for bass solos. This will help your overall comping.

Also, voicings don't matter nearly as much as time and feel. Obviously knowing the chord changes very well is hugely helpful.

[Toddep]

There were times when I was on a gig and the solos would start, and the piano player would be comping behind a soloist with no regard the poor guitar player. So I would lay out. So if if if this happens to you.. don’t fight it. The piano players usually always win.

If you really want to fight back... then when the pianist takes a solo, you comp behind him a half step below!

[rpjazzguitar]

In a way, I'd say you can't learn to "comp". It's not one big thing. It's a lot of small things.

So, I'd suggest one tune at a time, starting with a simple tune at a pretty slow tempo.

Ask your teacher to show you one way to comp thru it. Then, another and another. Go one tune at a time.

In each case try to understand the logic behind the approach -- and there are a lot of possible approaches.

I think learning chord melody is a great way to progress, since it involves a lot of the same skills -- getting melody notes on top of the chord, using chords to create melody and voice leading smoothly from one chord to the next.

But, one tune at a time, not "comping-in-general".

[emanresu]

I had no clue how to comp well for the longest time. Me comping in jazz - it felt either stupid(ly performed rhythmical tricks) or too bland and simple. The same time I taught a few student pop bands with people trying to get a guitar solo down. For some reason my comping there worked without any problems whatsoever - it was fun, simple chords and very often the whole thing had good energy.
I wondered why this doesn't work with jazz but turns out that it actually does work the same way. Keep the chords simple and clear, all attention and ears to the soloist, follow their rhythm, give them energy. The chords, of course, have to be super well learned to let the hands free to do their job(follow the rhythm, add sparks) . You can even use recordings of good solos to practice this way. Must ignore the pianist(mostly).
Well, this is how I got a little hope back eventually, when talking about free..ish jazzy kind of comp.

[TH]

There are so many ways to comp and in the end I think it comes down to sensing what is right for the situation and moment you're in.
You'll learn the basics of what to play, that's invaluable, but when and how will determine how much you further the music.
Like a swing sense, each era of jazz had its own dialect, its own way of partitioning the space, the beat, the space you need for thought. Within those eras were those who were so clear in their own concept that they moved the music forward.
Listen to each era of music and make your own conclusions about how that music swung, placed harmony, beat and what was needed to mark time, what was needed to allow things to float and to fly.
Listen to a lot of music and play along. Listen to a lot of music and organize your ideas in an evolutionary manner and learn to involve your voice to internalize the texture of the space.
At least thinking this way helped me, and it let me ask more relevant questions to teachers when I had access to them. I will say that some of the best modern compers have told me similar things: It's not so much what you play, but how it fits into what you DON'T play.

David

[gggomez]

I think my comping has come a long way. My mug punter tips

1. The form really matters bar 4, 8 the turnaround etc
2. The bands groove you gotta be totally locked inside to go outside the rythm
3. Your chord library
4. Creating movement dissonance whatever it is harmonically you want to express
5. Rhythms in the right places
6. Listening to band and the improviser singer etc

then of course put it all together.

for chord vocabulary I find the pentatonic scale very useful. Eg if your playing over c or am then just play around grabbing notes from that scale. Then build little cadences.

put on a backing track and practice your little cadences To set up the 1 chord
put on a blues and create rhythmic tension on bar 4, 8, 12

Some other basics

you know the chromatic approach chord on beat 4? What ever chord you are going to approach it from a semi tone above or below?

you know Charleston rhythm?

cheers

[znerken]

One additional question, is wether people usually tend to use the approach teached in the mentioned true fire course? So basically just using the 3rd and 7 of each chord, and only adding extension or bass notes if needed. For example if piano player, or bass player is not present?

Here's an example from the course:





Or is this the lazy man approach? Don't seem like the way my teacher showed me.

[christianm77]

It really depends on context.

What counts as good comping for a guitar player in a duo is different to what counts as good comping for tenor sax with a bass player, and for alto or trumpet, it's different again....

Let alone comping for a singer.

Big subject.

If the bass player is not there, should play the bass notes on your chords.

Mostly - practice comping. On your own to develop ideas and lead lines etc, and with others as much as possible. And above, all, listen.

[rpjazzguitar]

One additional question, is wether people usually tend to use the approach teached in the mentioned true fire course? So basically just using the 3rd and 7 of each chord, and only adding extension or bass notes if needed. For example if piano player, or bass player is not present?

Here's an example from the course:



Or is this the lazy man approach? Don't seem like the way my teacher showed me.

Comping 3s and 7s on the D and G strings is an essential skill.

I use it. I'm not sure I'd say I "usually" use it. It's one way to comp through a tune and it has some notable advantages.

The 7th chords are constructed as follows: R 3 5 b7. The bassist is likely to play the root and, often, the 5th. Even if he doesn't play the 5th, it can be heard, subliminally, as an overtone of the root. For example, if you play your low E string and listen carefully, you can also hear a B.

The 3rd tells the ear if the chord is major or minor. The 7 tells the ear if it's a dominant chord, or something else.

So, 3 and 7 outline the basic harmony, if there's a bassist.

At the same time, 3 and 7 don't conflict with any extension the soloist or pianist play. It can work with b5 #5 b9 #9 and 13. So it's safe. That can make it dull, but in the scheme of things, dull is better than wrong.

Another point. A lot of songs have movement around the circle of 5ths, like E7 A7 D7 G7. If you start by playing xx67xx for E7 (that's 3 on the D string and 7 on the G string) , then all you have to do is move that shape down one fret to get A7. At that point you have the 7 on the D string and the 3 on the G string. It's reversed. And so on down to xx34xx. So, it sounds very smooth.

So, you take a song like Has Anybody Seen My Gal (aka five foot two) which goes C E7 A7 etc and comp it that way. First time through play the Charleston rhythm (One, and-of-two). Get that locked in with the bassist. Pay attention to both when you hit the "chord" and when you release it. Attack and release points are both important.

It's locked when your significant other can't resist tapping a foot.

Voila! You have mastered one important way to comp.

[gggomez]

If it sounds good to your ears.

to mine, maybe if in a big band, otherwise no.

[docsteve]

I listened to the soundcloud bit from 2:50 and my advice is don't get into the soloist's way. In that particular recording, I couldn't tell which was soloist and which was comping.

Apart from that, what you play in a band situation is very different from what your teacher plays comping for you in a duo situation - or should be, tell that to a piano player.

BTW if your teacher doesn't like your comping, it should be up to him to give you some concepts to work on. While the advice here is excellent, none of us can really tell what is the right advice FOR YOU at the level you're at, and the situation you're in. Your teacher should know. If he doesn't, get another.

[znerken]

I listened to the soundcloud bit from 2:50 and my advice is don't get into the soloist's way. In that particular recording, I couldn't tell which was soloist and which was comping.

Apart from that, what you play in a band situation is very different from what your teacher plays comping for you in a duo situation - or should be, tell that to a piano player.

BTW if your teacher doesn't like your comping, it should be up to him to give you some concepts to work on. While the advice here is excellent, none of us can really tell what is the right advice FOR YOU at the level you're at, and the situation you're in. Your teacher should know. If he doesn't, get another.

How do you not get in the soloist way?

I totally agree about the teacher. However, I don't think he want to do that before next lesson, and that's not for another three weeks. He probably doesn't want to spend a lot of time typing stuff out, and rather want to do it on a lesson where he gets paid. So I was hoping to get started. His only advice my last sesseion(on this manner) was to just listen to piano players. I mean, I listen a lot, but I am not quite sure how to practice it. I am the kind of guy who needs some specific instructions and a road map. Guess that sucks when you want to become a pro!


Chords and comping was the main reason I got into jazz guitar, so it's very important to me. And that truefire course doesn't seem to teach me anything that my teacher talked about. Which was mostly voice leading, interesting comping, using the space and staying in the groove.

[lawson-stone]

How do you not get in the soloist way?

I totally agree about the teacher. However, I don't think he want to do that before next lesson, and that's not for another three weeks. He probably doesn't want to spend a lot of time typing stuff out, and rather want to do it on a lesson where he gets paid. So I was hoping to get started. His only advice my last sesseion(on this manner) was to just listen to piano players. I mean, I listen a lot, but I am not quite sure how to practice it. I am the kind of guy who needs some specific instructions and a road map. Guess that sucks when you want to become a pro!


Chords and comping was the main reason I got into jazz guitar, so it's very important to me. And that truefire course doesn't seem to teach me anything that my teacher talked about. Which was mostly voice leading, interesting comping, using the space and staying in the groove.

you don't just pay a teacher to sit there and deal with you in a lesson. You also pay that teacher to have materials, preparation, ideas, and things you can work on. If he's pushing you on comping, he ought to have some material for you to work on. My students in my classes don't pay extra for the information sheets and outlines I distribute. Its' part of the deal. If your teacher is unwilling to supply material on points he himself is pushing you on, then if you can get another teacher, you should.

[docsteve]

Don‘t comp in the same register as the solo guitar. Simple as that.


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[znerken]

I asked my teacher again. He said the same. Told me to listen to great pianists, and how they use the call response method from blues. They don't just bang out chords, but respond to the solist. He told me to listen to Wynton Kelly, Barry Harris Herbie Hankock and albums from Chet Baker and specifically how the pianist behind Chet together with him creates small melodies and phrases. Also how the piano responds to the melody and improv with small "comments". Basically, listen a lot to music and copy.

[lawson-stone]

I asked my teacher again. He said the same. Told me to listen to great pianists, and how they use the call response method from blues. They don't just bang out chords, but respond to the solist. He told me to listen to Wynton Kelly, Barry Harris Herbie Hankock and albums from Chet Baker and specifically how the pianist behind Chet together with him creates small melodies and phrases. Also how the piano responds to the melody and improv with small "comments". Basically, listen a lot to music and copy.

Hmm. I hope you are not paying very much. This is good advice, but common as dirt. When I've taken lessons, I expect my teacher to give me specific material to work through, specific recordings to listen to and take elements from. I hope this teacher has other qualities as a teacher, because this is very standard, totally free all over the internet, advice.

[coolvinny]

OK so I listened to some of the Soundcloud and in particular from and around 2:50. Two quick fixes to drastically improve your comping:
- play on "1" a lot less.
- comp a lot less in general...like 40% to 50% of how much you are doing now.