[Beginner] Is there an consensual better set of chords shapes ?

[lstelie]

Hello,

The title of my message can sound strange but I'm quite confused..

I'm a bass guy, I play (let’s say « mess around » more than « play » ) guitar for some time mainly to make fun at home and because it’s a good aerobic exercise for a bass guy.. and also because with a guitar I « ear » chords, instead of only knowing arpeggios.
Enough for my personal life that is not that interesting:-)

For 2018 I decided to learn jazz guitar in a more structured way, and considering that methods are quite cheap I ordered several.

• MattWarnock/Jazzguitar.be
• Jody Fisher
• Mel Bay / Mike Christiansen
• Mickey Baker

The whole set is far cheaper than a pedal…

And there the question started.

Each and every author considers that learning chords is the required first step… ok

But…
Even for very basic chord like a Dominant chord with the root on the 6^thstrings all authors disagree.

Some (Warnok, Baker) use muted 1 and 5 strings others (Christiansen, Fisher ) use the octave on string 1 and the fifth on sting 5 (instead of a mute).

I do understand that there are a lot of ways to build the same chord,
I do understand that for a seasoned guitarist having several options under the fingers can make smoother movements on the neck and son on..
But when starting, what is in such case the more logical first approach, the more logical « author style » to learn ?

Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas

Luc

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's no consensus really, and all of those sources have kind of different approaches. I'm not a fan of the Fischer book at all. Random, unorganized IMO.

Mickey Baker is its own thing. It's really a method for jazzing up cheesy old vanilla changes, like folks did before real books. It's fun to play through if you're ok with letting go of the need to analyze and understand. It doesn't really explain things theoretically, and it's not going to show you explicitly how to handle the diminished or m7b5 chord you see in a real book chart.

Christiansen is great, but kind of compartmentalizes chord fingering types in a way which may be more helpful to players with slightly more experience. The other material is good, but you need to decide what you want to work on in what order.

Personally, given what you have, I would maybe sequence/prioritize things as follows: learn the Freddie green chords from Christiansen or Warnock. Pick which one makes better sense to YOU (again, there's no CONSENSUS on fingerings etc) and work basic tunes with them. These are the bones of basic jazz chords and will work for whatever you do after. Baker is for fun and for letting go, not questioning.

Honestly, if you're looking for more of a consensus, basic approach to beginning jazz chords, I personally think that the chord lessons (not necessarily everything in between) from William Leavitt's Modern Method are basically what you're looking for. Chords are sequenced very logically according to basic tradition and voice leading rather than some other random or arbitrary organization found in the other 2 books mentioned (not baker necessarily; different animal, different purpose). If you're looking for one logical "first way", Leavitt is as close as anything.

[lstelie]

Thanks Matt

Well so I'll stick with jazzguitar.be Beginner Guide To Jazz Guitar because it's the only one that displays clearly for each chord the position of the intervals, and coming from a bass background I'm familiar with the concept of interval, it's easier for me to remember things.

This kind of explaination makes things quite clear for me (for some strange reason they are missing for other methods)


Luc

[jameslovestal]

I recommend the root based 6th and 5th string chords as a starting point, ensuring one knows the 'top' note value (3rd, 5th, 7th etc..) for each voicing. Next move on to 4th string and 3rd string chords and of course inversions.

Of course a lot depends on what other instruments are playing. I typically just play with another guitar player and therefore root based chords are useful. But when playing with a bass player or piano player, I'll drop the root, our play the root as the top note especially when that is a core melody note, or use those 4th string and 3rd string chords so I'm on 'top' of what the other instruments are playing.

Chord voicing with the 5th on top do sound rather vanilla, but that can be desired backing a singer or soloist in a duet type setting (which is why the 5th is often dropped and a 6th, or raised on lower 5th added etc...).

[Grant McEvers]

I'm not a fan of the Fischer book at all. Random, unorganized IMO.

Yeah, I've got that method and it's pretty hard to sort out for a semi beginner like me.

I downloaded the Beginner's Guide To Jazz Guitar like Luc did and I like it a lot.

Thanks Matt.

[Grant McEvers]

Of course a lot depends on what other instruments are playing.

Argh!!! Context. The right chord form will "depend". The beginner dilemma .

[cosmic gumbo]

Any chord method that suggests actually using the wound E string in chords is not about playing jazz with a rhythm section and other musicians.

[Noah D'Innocenzo]

The first chord you mentioned with the 1st and 5 strings muted would be the bare-bones version. It has one of each chord tone in the voicing (1, b7, 3, 5). The other voicing you mentioned has an extra 5th and an extra root (on top.) In general, id go with the first voicing just because it’s the one that you’ll start adding tensions to over time. The second voicing is basically the barre chord form of a dominant. It can be nice for chord melodies at times because it’s a lot meatier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[emanresu]

My own little observation says that its sometimes better to concentrate on voice leading, not just single particular isolated good-sounding chords. I mean, if finding a nice comfy way to play II, then V, then I etc., in their own way they do sound fine but the overall progression may sound pretty clunky. Hm, one way to figure out nice things: if found a good II and I chord variant, the V chord in between those should tie the other two together... smoothly. Sometimes this kind of V could sound bland by its own but may suit way better than something hip and exciting.

[craigoslo]

I would say this is a great first step. Alternate between them and the 5th in the bass shapes and you have can have good voice leading with variations on just two chord shapes through a circle of fifths progression.

5th in the bass: Gmaj7- 10 x 9 11 8 x, G7- 10 x 9 10 8 x, Gm7- 10 x 8 10 8 x

Thanks Matt

Well so I'll stick with jazzguitar.be Beginner Guide To Jazz Guitar because it's the only one that displays clearly for each chord the position of the intervals, and coming from a bass background I'm familiar with the concept of interval, it's easier for me to remember things.

This kind of explaination makes things quite clear for me (for some strange reason they are missing for other methods)


Luc

[NSJ]

The whole set is far cheaper than a pedal…


But when starting, what is in such case the more logical first approach, the more logical « author style » to learn ?


Luc

This is the level where one needs a good PRIVATE teacher to sort it all out and organize it.

Any sort of advice on the internet obtained on the cheap, where one thinks of strictly in terms of short cuts, no matter how well-intentioned, will essentially be: "garbage in-garbage out".

A good private teacher can help organize ESSENTIAL information in fundamental ways that will help develop better habits and more clear ways of thinking about this music.

[Grant McEvers]

This is the level where one needs a good PRIVATE teacher to sort it all out and organize it.

Any sort of advice on the internet obtained on the cheap, where one thinks of strictly in terms of short cuts, no matter how well-intentioned, will essentially be: "garbage in-garbage out".

A good private teacher can help organize ESSENTIAL information in fundamental ways that will help develop better habits and more clear ways of thinking about this music.

So in an area (not Chicago) where there are no serious private teachers (my hometown) is it better to give up trying to learn Jazz? Is a site like Jazz Guitar Online of no use at all?

[NSJ]

So in an area (not Chicago) where there are no serious private teachers (my hometown) is it better to give up trying to learn Jazz? Is a site like Jazz Guitar Online of no use at all?

Most excellent teachers use SKYPE these days as well.
Everything can be of use. I always try to learn something from everything.


A good teacher can help you make sense of it all and organize and process all the information in useful, intelligent and meaningful ways.

The best teacher is the one that focuses you to learn and ask questions on your own and then try to seek out answers.

[Grant McEvers]

Most excellent teachers use SKYPE these days as well.
Everything can be of use.

So SKYPE. Not exactly a "private teacher" (like one in person) and it's on the internet where you get garbage in-garbage out. And "everything can be of use" except that what you seem to be referring to is on the internet, "garbage in-garbage out".

Not trying to incite a fight here, but many guys are just looking for tips. We come here to get them.

[NSJ]

So SKYPE. Not exactly a "private teacher" (like one in person) and it's on the internet where you get garbage in-garbage out. And "everything can be of use" except that what you seem to be referring to is on the internet, "garbage in-garbage out".

Not trying to incite a fight here, but many guys are just looking for tips. We come here to get them.

I've taken Skype lessons from people like Tim Lerch, Matt Warnock, and Christopher Woitach. (not regularly, but a few). They are great teachers and I still use stuff that I've learned from them. In fact, all the time.

No issue with many guys "looking for tips". All I said was, at the beginning, you are going to get swamped with organization. You need a way to understand, process and organize this information. That is qualitatively different than "looking for tips".

A great teacher can help you understand and process the stuff much better, more efficiently, and really make sense of the MOUNTAINS of info that is available these days. Especially at the beginning or elementary level.

Someone above referenced "voice leading". that is a a very advanced concept for someone looking for basic grips with 6th string and 5th string roots. What tips are valuable and what tips are too much for a beginner? How are they going to figure that out?

[Grant McEvers]

A great teacher can help you understand and process the stuff much better, more efficiently, and really make sense of the MOUNTAINS of info that is available these days. Especially at the beginning or elementary level.

Someone above referenced "voice leading". that is a a very advanced concept for someone looking for basic grips with 6th string and 5th string roots. What tips are valuable and what tips are too much for a beginner? How are they going to figure that out?

So is all that going to make you a feeling, emotional, and real player? Are you better off analyzing every moment of a measure, making sure you are hitting this or that note on the upbeat or the downbeat? Who cares about all the mountains of information out there? Is that music, or just intellectual game playing?

Did Montgomery take lessons? He didn't even read. He just listened and copied. Then he made it his own. Many others did too. You didn't take lessons back then on the "internet". You just studied your hero's licks and did your best to sound like they did.

The old masters didn't take music nearly as seriously as we do, picking apart every single note. They were much more cool about it all.

[NSJ]

So is all that going to make you a feeling, emotional, and real player? Are you better off analyzing every moment of a measure, making sure you are hitting this or that note on the upbeat or the downbeat? Who cares about all the mountains of information out there? Is that music, or just intellectual game playing?

Did Montgomery take lessons? He didn't even read. He just listened and copied. Then he made it his own. Many others did too. You didn't take lessons back then on the "internet". You just studied your hero's licks and did your best to sound like they did.

The old masters didn't take music nearly as seriously as we do, picking apart every single note. They were much more cool about it all.

Well, Wes was like one in a million. Bad example---none of us will ever be in his ball park. I don't find the "Wes did this, that's all I need to do" argument very useful. 99.999999% of us are not worthy to be in his shadow.

Also, the old masters took music much more seriously than every one of us here do. Way more seriously. That's why they were masters. Because they were humble and realized that music requires a lot of work and dedication and there's not enough lifetimes to get through it.



Actually, if you focus strictly on the internet, most likely you get stuck in the weeds, in the minutae of "analyzing every note of the measure" and "picking apart every note".

A good teacher for a beginner will get one out of the weeds, out of the minutae, make sure you have correct technique, and make sure you can play SONGS, make sure you understand harmony in a useful and meaningful way, make sure you work on your time and feel, etc.

Any way, obviously do what ever you need to do that you feel need to do. No one is stopping you.

All I said is, basically, there are no shortcuts. And most of us could really use some structured, meaningful help when we're starting out.

[NSJ]

As I was saying about masters and thir humility and desire to learn while others May say “Wes didn’t need to do this “ etc

Bobby Broom , a modern master who is one of the BEST players around , humbly posted the following

“About two years ago I committed to learning music sight reading, practicing for 15 – 30 minutes daily. Tonight I had a gig with a young NYC saxophonist whose music was some of the most difficult I've ever had to learn in my entire life. Even though I practiced it daily as well for a couple of weeks, I was only able to get through it tonight with the help of reading the charts. This was something I never would've been able to do just two years ago.

In my opinion, I'm nowhere near being a "good" sight reader yet. I have more work to do, but the progress that I have been able to make is astonishing to me, a life-long non reading guitar player. “

[Grant McEvers]

Well, Wes was like one in a million. Bad example---none of us will ever be in his ball park. I don't find the "Wes did this, that's all I need to do" argument very useful. 99.999999% of us are not worthy to be in his shadow.

Also, the old masters took music much more seriously than every one of us here do. Way more seriously. That's why they were masters. Because they were humble and realized that music requires a lot of work and dedication and there's not enough lifetimes to get through it.



Actually, if you focus strictly on the internet, most likely you get stuck in the weeds, in the minutae of "analyzing every note of the measure" and "picking apart every note".

A good teacher for a beginner will get one out of the weeds, out of the minutae, make sure you have correct technique, and make sure you can play SONGS, make sure you understand harmony in a useful and meaningful way, make sure you work on your time and feel, etc.

Any way, obviously do what ever you need to do that you feel need to do. No one is stopping you.

All I said is, basically, there are no shortcuts. And most of us could really use some structured, meaningful help when we're starting out.

Total nonsense. You're a fraud teacher pushing confusion on the legions of youngsters to your benefit. It's been done to me and I know the scam when I see it.

[destinytot]

What tips are valuable and what tips are too much for a beginner? How are they going to figure that out?

[destinytot]

Total nonsense. You're a fraud teacher pushing confusion on the legions of youngsters to your benefit. It's been done to me and I know the scam when I see it.

Putting my own hand up to having played Winged Monkey for many a Wicked Witch of the West. As Mr Python said, "It's a fair cop, guv'nor. Society's to blame."

I fully agree with your broader point. 'Scam' is right; wilful blindness allows its proliferation.

[rabbit]

Everyone here who has already responded knows more & plays better than me; you are warned.

Here's a link to a Rutgers Master's Thesis on Harry Leahey:

Thesis - Bio and Musical Analysis - Harry Leahey | Popular Music | American Styles Of Music

On page 39 begins a description of Leahey's approach to chords.

I practiced this to learn more chords for a long stretch, then my CRS kicked in, and well...
there is an awful lot in there so just try it out with a couple of string groups and leave out notes
if you must for difficult fingerings. If you've got the third & seventh you can lose a tonic or fifth.

If you play a progression using voicings only from one string-set you automatically get voice leading.
May not always be the musical expression you most want but certainly a classical education.

Good luck, herein lies madness.

[NSJ]

Total nonsense. You're a fraud teacher pushing confusion on the legions of youngsters to your benefit. It's been done to me and I know the scam when I see it.

“Not trying to incite a fight here”.

That escaLated quickly Oh no sir let me clear one thing up I am absolutely not a teacher, nor would I ever hold myself out as as one.. . I have no students whatsoecer

However I have received instruction from the best. And for that I am very grateful.

Only on the internet Full of “beginner experts” would the accepted general wisdom of finding a qualified teacher when you are starting out in order to help you organize essential information efficiently and practice correctly be considered “nonsense” and “fraudulent”.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Total nonsense. You're a fraud teacher pushing confusion on the legions of youngsters to your benefit. It's been done to me and I know the scam when I see it.

This is uncalled for. I guess you took offense at the original "garbage in-garbage out"? But at least it wasn't ad hominem, directed at a specific person. No need for name-calling.

The overall point - that more variety of information over the web isn't what's needed, but instead, someone to help you organize all of it - is a valid point, and at the heart of the OP. I don't think he meant it as a direct insult to previous posters.

I don't know if you're new, but get to know people before laying into them maybe? NSJ offers a lot of helpful posts.

[NSJ]

I just want to say that there’s nothing wrong with books, videos, online tips and instruction per se. Everything can be valuable.

this scenario posted here is exactly why a teacher is needed at the beginning and foundational levels. Let me give you an example in my case. My teacher had me go out and buy Roni Ben Hurr’s Chordability video ( actually I think he bought them from Roni and I bought them from him. The fact that he was impressed with Roni’s video as a reaching tool made me think very highly of Roni, whom I had never heard of before )

He used it as a way to teach how to build chords across all the string sets —- it’s very much in line with his own thinking. Obviously none of the stuff is new, everybody kind of knows how to play and teach drop two and drop three chords . I think Jimmy Bruno teaches this way like many others as well.

We did not go over part two of the video, which related to the Barry Harris concepts. That would’ve been massively overkill for the purposes of teaching someone the finger board . Those are the kind of judgments teachers make, what is appropriate at what level and in what sequence and so forth.