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Big difference between Hanon and Kreutzer Etudes.
Hanon is pure mechanics in conception.
Kreutzer Etudes or etudes in general are musical compositions (of varying quality) crafted around addressing
one or more issues of technique.
Here's a link to the violin score:
http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/us...05680score.pdf
Much public domain Classical music to be found on ismlp
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09-12-2017 12:06 AM
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Sure, bako the Kreutzer are definitely more varied on a musical level (although from memory, the guitar book tends to focus on the more mechanistic etudes). It's just that the Hanon-Hanlon connection immediately sprang to mind.
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Howard Roberts in his Building Chops book in the introductory writing makes the case that classical instruments
such as violinhave extensive collections of etudes written which serve as a conduit for building technique.
Guitar, not so much and jazz guitar even less. The whole book is built on the idea of structured improvised
etudes within standard song forms. The approach is very adaptable.
I want to neither glorify or vilify Hanon. It is what it is. It is referenced simply because it takes a phrase and
places it on each degree of the scale in the same way that chord scales and interval scales do. It is thorough
and practicing a given pattern in a scale this way reveals both sonically and physically the intervallic differences
that occur on each degree. At least this is true for all the non symmetrical scales.Last edited by bako; 09-12-2017 at 08:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by bako
A fundamental difference in classical repertoire and the etudes that suppliment/inform them is the genre, as a whole, until the 20th century, had a recognized canon and a similarity of techniques that served the genre as a whole in some way. Of course that all went to hell in a handbasket with nationalistic fracturing of the Germanic tradition and incorporation of a wider and broader vocabulary of extended techniques and instrumental forms.
Jazz though, is very DIY and even one's approach to the instrument differs widely and still maintains its legitimacy. It's NOT based on recreating an accurate static model of the previous generation. The innovators whom we hold as the lights we follow, are themselves writing their own book. This is a key to your question too, of making a standard set of notes into an individual statement, a musical phrase.
In jazz, it's not a matter of interpreting a piece of music, at its best, it's a matter of writing your own piece given a proficient command on an articulate lexicon. I think there are people who play jazz at some level who don't appreciate this distinction.
Heh heh, yeah if I had my own music school, I'd have a whole lot more time for assimilation and I would require each student of improvisational music to create their own book of proficiency exercises. That would be the jazz approach.
David
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My practicing is now basically DIY exercises, although often based on published works. When I developed focal dystonia in my right hand, I lost my classical and flamenco chops, my brain became short-circuited around by index finger. Eventually, I had to abandon regular finger-style technique, and take up hybrid picking. Some of the things I work on are early classical guitar studies, but mostly I have adapted modern classical guitar methodology and have composed etudes that focus on strengthening the weakest aspects of my practicing, since most of my work is jazz-based. Bossa and Samba rhythms get a lot of attention, as I play nylon 7-string and need to play effective bass lines as well as harmonies, rhythms and lines. However, warming up with relatively mindless mechanical exercises is still very effective, because you can focus on coordination between the hands without worrying about the musical content. As to reg's last point, Barney Kessell had a great answer to the question "what does a master like you practice?' He said "whatever I can't do that I want to do".
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As a guitarist fairly new to jazz, I'm trying to use arpeggios to play over standards. As a starting point, I'm just playing the chord tones as 8th notes to outline the changes to the tune. What I'm interested in, is how ultimately I can progress to use arpeggios to create interesting lines. I'm assuming that this will be a combination of varying the note order and the rhythms used?
Does anybody have any suggestions for how to make this transition, and what worked for you? Perhaps it is more a case of transcribing nice solos from recordings and learning how others have done this?
Thanks, looking forward to hearing what you'd recommend and what worked for you!
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What worked for me.. Playing arps through a few tunes like Stella or Angel Eyes worked. But it's such a heavy job. It got a bit more relaxed eventually. For warmup exercises, I used just "important pairs" - meaning II-V, V-I. Just to give the brain enough but not too much to chew. That seemed to work. Mixing up triads, all sorts of chords, scale runs and arps worked the best I think. Like doing all at the same run. Tie it all together - that I can suggest. I can vouch for this. Still, it's a heavy job at first. Must have patience before the bright moments can happen. The interesting lines - just try to figure out something interesting using only those restricting arp rules. Often trying is enough.
And, for interesting lines, of course transcribe and listen. And invent. And jam - but record yourself and see if you managed to land one. Sometimes, you feel something happened but without recording it, you have no clue what it was.
---2 noob cents. Not going for arps myself nowadays - too techy for me. Still, time well spent those days
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Don't play arps outlining changes... play phrases
Check how melodies are built up basically...
Here's I can't get started
You see 1st motive looks like an ascending Cmaj7 arp... what really is going here is
1) c-e-g are pickup notes
2) b -c-a are actually kind of embelishment... b is suspension to... or even more : b-c is just an appogiatura to a...
(so basically I would say the whole 1st bar is not Cmaj7 but C6 chord just bass line moves for C to A)
3) then 2nd bar it's G over Dm7 chord... so after ascending arp we have slow step by step descending line.. decoarated with approach and pickup notes and appogiaturas...
this G is approached stepwise from below E-F-G...
etc.
What I see hear is just quick ascending arp and then descending scalewise with more space and embelishment added...
Check the Nearness of You or My One and Only love that are basically the same style of melody....
Arps give you confidence about chord tones... but how you approach chord tones is about melody and harmony... how you put it rythmically...
Take simple arp and add a not like C-E-G-A or C-D-E-G or D-F-A-E... etc. and try to think of it melodically.. play a pick up phrases... thrpw som notes up and down octave ... hear how your accents are realted to harmony... variate rythmically... improvize with that simple melodic material... try options...
And
Does anybody have any suggestions for how to make this transition, and what worked for you? Perhaps it is more a case of transcribing nice solos from recordings and learning how others have done this?
Check how Lester Youg plays the melody of I can.t get started...
check the phrase from 0:48 to 0:55 you hear there are basicarps of C6 (or Am7) and Dm7 ann G7 connected in a melodic line?
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BTW. It may sound robotic just because they are just not well learned yet. Maybe. I've noticed that pretty much everything can sound robot-.. student-like when just starting. The freedom comes when a skill/ability gets to 100%.. or very close to it. Also a lot what is needed for jazz is terribly time consuming because it requires waaaaay more than just one way work - memory(piece)>fingers(technique). My case, if I feel that a new thing (maybe an arp) would take 2 weeks to get good enough for usage, it will take usually 4x more. 8 weeks most likely.
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The famous Schroeder Improv class at MI the first way you had to work on a tune is via arpeggios in eight notes. Every tune you started this way and when your turn to solo came your first chorus had to be all arp's in eights. The better you were the more it became about voice leading the arp thru the changes. Then second chorus you could play anything you wanted.
Schroeder would say you start with this exercise to get the sound of the progression and chords into your ears. Also learn arps and how they layout on your instrument. When knew your arps/chord tones on your instrument well enough to start voicing leading them thru the changes then they started sounding more like lines. Once everyone in your band could play the assigned song this with competently then the next assignment was basically the same thing, but with the common scales for the chords in the tune. Also every had to take turns playing the head of the tune. You stayed on arps or the scales until every member of the band could play the assignment to Schroeder's satisfaction be that one week or ten weeks. so some peer presure encouraging to practice and get their act together. The worst feeling knowing you were the one causing the bands not to move forward. Schroeder besides being a great pianist was known for his tongue lashing he'd give students in this class the thing was he was so funny doing it. Schroeder would be ripped you a new assh0le and you'd have trouble keeping from laughing at yourself. Schroeders Ear Training classes and ear training practice session were infamous. Schroeder retired a few years ago and I feel sorry for the students that won't get to enjoy his teaching.
Peter Bernstein, Joe Diorio and others will say limit your resource to force yourself to be creative. Arp's aren't that restrictive but if you haven't really pushed it with them it might be. Play using only arps till your are bored to death with them, your can't stand it, but keep going because now your brain is going to explore what if I change the rhythm, what if you use certain interval within those notes, add more space, jump registers, approach the CT's and so on. You finally start finding way to make arps into lines by letting go, experimenting and letting your ear guide you to new ideas.
Getting bored with an exercise is the point the door is on the verge of opening until then it mainly mechanics, now you have to chance to get to the music part of the exercise.Last edited by docbop; 12-27-2017 at 06:43 PM.
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Inversions, approach notes etc.. you can do so much with rhythm
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For me the next step has been to play less. Once you can play the straight 8th notes leave gaps come in before 1 after 1 play part bar phrases play two bar phrases over 3 bars etc withought losing your place in the form.
1st time through the form real simple 1 2 and 3 note phrases build it. Don’t go to the 7th too early use the sixth. Bring in that flat 9 make it work. But don’t build too quick for me that has been the key for my door and listening to Charlie Christian (from a guy that loves modern jazz). It is amazing transcribing him then listen to Mike Moreno or Kenny Burrell or Lee Morgan, Stanley Turrentine, LED Zeppelin AC/DC etc and your ears will say hang on Charlie played that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm a fan of the Joseph Alexander books called Fundamental Changes -- he has one on the major ii V I, and one on the minor. The concept is you methodically build a lot of licks. At some point, you have to plug them into tunes. For a while it may be a little mechanical, but hopefully eventually it can sound natural. Anyway, some samples are in this solo:
PS I haven't listened back to this yet -- not sure how it sounds.
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Thanks for all the very helpful replies and suggestions!
Lots of great ideas to look into, and I've been starting to work through some standards just getting familiar with the arpeggios, and it certainly seems to be giving me a better understanding of the tunes and the changes. I'll research the ideas here and hopefully I'll make some progress and start to sound a bit more natural.
I think this may take some time...
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Originally Posted by LukeReinhart
From there, the next step is to use neighbour tones - lower chromatic, upper diatonic - to decorate this basic material.
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Originally Posted by docbop
Arpeggios are the bedrock of any musicians playing. I always equate it to the steel girders in a skyscraper. They hold the solo up while being practically invisible to the casual observer.
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
I was talking to one of the MI instructors a few months ago and they weren't sure if someone had taken over Carl's old improv class. It would be a big hole in the improv program without it. My other favorite class that I don't think anyone kept was Joe Diorio Tune playing class. You got together with another guitarist or bassist and Joe assigned a tune. No soloing just playing the head as musically, vocal like as you could. Joe would critic and tell you things to do like change register, add slides, various things. Then there was in back along with Joe was Jazz bass and drum instructors, sometimes others who would comment your performance. Like Schroeders class you didn't move on to another tune until Joe felt you really had the assigned tune. That was great class.
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This is a great post
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Love doc's post....
Anyway for me...
*one big help was working these things a lot in 8th note triplets, rather than just 8ths. reallyhelps with rhythmic variation, but additionally, just getting a couple more notes in over the course of two beats is really helpful, for my ears anyway.
*Also, enclosing the notes of the new chord with the previous one - as simple as changing directions on the "change" - gives the forward motion that makes it more like a real line.
*Limiting yourself to two or three strings and really working on developing things rhythmically etc. is great for breaking out of same old patterns etc.
Anyway, playing a lot of arpeggios lately. It's amazing what you can do with very limited no choice when you learn to do that little better.
How about altered arpeggios? Doing a lot more with altered arpeggios lately and I'm interested in others take on these. I have my own approach but would like to know what others do with these....
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Learn to play a major or minor 6 (1356) until you know it cold from any inversion
1356
3561
5613
6135
learn to play it’s Associated diminished chord from any invserion until you know it cold from any inversion.
2-4-m6-M7
4-m6-M7-2
m6-M7-2-4
M7-2-4-m6
Be able to seamlessly sequence and switch from one major or minor six to its associated diminished at a drop of a hat from any inversion (eg, Play one for 2 beats, play the other for two beats switch seamlessly )
source Barry Harris and his famous guitar disciples (Pasquale, Roni, Mr. Kingstone)
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TBH I think focussing purely on pitch content for ways to make arpeggio running less mechanical is profoundly missing the point.
Hint - you don't have to play in 8th notes all the time.
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Might also look at resolving to the next chord a little earlier or later as well.
One man's passing tone/extension is another man's rhythmic displacement I guess.
What Christian said above as well.
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Originally Posted by LukeReinhart
The big leap came to me was actually hearing the relationships with the implied scale and learning to sing lines sans guitar. This hints at a chord scale approach, hearing harmonic content within a melodic scale; but that's what worked for me.
One thing I've found from learning from students: Different people hear different ways and find a way to know your self through the things you listen to. You hear melody in Paul Desmond's approach and you like his note choice, be inspired and keep that sound in mind. You like Sonny Rollins's rhythmic phrasing, be inspired and keep that sound in mind.
I'd say try to avoid just plugging in arpeggios and expecting to find musical meaning. Find the ways to unlock WHY those arpeggios are important. Embellish, sing a line, create a scale segment that leads to and connects those arpeggiated notes, arpeggiate in wide voicings (spread voicings), use pedal point, use motif, and breathe... in your body and in your phrasing.
I find these things liberating anyway.
David
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Also - I think this gets omitted - the study of melody lines? Even the study of a simple standard melody will teach you all sorts of things about expressing the changes in a line.
Some melodies are very chord tone heavy - All of Me is a very arpeggio heavy example, but there are examples of melodies that are heavy in chord tones but not arpeggios, so to speak. So I'd suggest Someday My Prince Will Come and Darn That Dream as examples of that.
You can do this before moving onto solos.
I think one danger is actually in thinking arpeggios. Don't think arpeggios - 'like a harp' going up and down without melodic contour. Think of chord tones that will act as the structural basis of your changes playing. The 1/2 and 1/4 note exercise is great for that.
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Performing and practicing are two different things, like learning vocabulary and giving an extemporaneous speech.
Moffa Mithra
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