Prioritizing: What is Most Essential?

[markesquire]

I recently saw an excellent TED Talk, which argued that it takes a lifetime to master a skill, but it only takes 20 hours to become good at something if you spend your time wisely by prioritizing the most essential elements. The example was playing guitar: he learned the most common chords (G, C, E, A, D in major/minor) and scales (major, minor, pentatonic), and showed the audience all the songs he could play within 20 hours of practice.

What is the jazz guitar equivalent? If someone wanted to become passable at basic jazz guitar within 20 hours, what are the most essential chords and scales you'd recommend?

Obviously, there are infinite chords, inversions, scales, etc, and you could spend a lifetime learning them. But all that complexity keeps me from getting started or enjoying the process. What is a good minimal foundation I can commit to that will enable me to actually enjoy the music now (and build my understanding later)?

[Bambus123]

Learn a 251 chord progression in the key of C (Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7)

Learn the arpeggios in the key of C - Dm7 arpeggio - G7 arpeggio - Cmaj7 arpeggio, at least in one position.

An arpeggio consists of four chord notes:

Minor: 1 b3 5 b7
Dom7: 1 3 5 b7
Major: 1 3 5 7

Learn the C major scale at least in one position

Make a backing track, and try to solo over a 251 progression in the key of C, using a combination of the 3 arpeggios and C major scale, outlining or landing on the 3rd and 7th tone in each arpeggio. Maybe put in a little chromatism here and there.

And/or find a few licks on Youtube which matches the 251 in C and rehearse untill you can play them by heart.

Maybe in 20 hours it will sound kind of jazzy

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's a working pro from the bay area that used to post a lot on this forum who was always talking about this topic , focusing on some fundamental approaches , not getting bogged down in chasing every variation of everything. learning basics from a few positions from three basic scales etc. Went by
Reg, here on the forum. He may check back in later on. Who knows?

Anyway, I have found his organizational approach very helpful, though it took me several years of trying to sift through his posts to really understand what he was talking about. His communication style is pretty different and can be difficult at times. If you have specific questions, I'd be happy to share my insights.

Some of the basic tenants are : know your instrument at a basic level. Learn to play a major scale as a two octave scale, from each scale degree , and starting on the same finger. This is the "second finger reference". Kurt Rosenwinkel uses this as well, as well as apparently other pros. His starting reference is to learn to play your G major scale, G to G in 2nd position, then , A to A - fourth position B to B - sixth position etc. etc. Here it is:

Chords/Chord Inversions:
Learn diatonic chords for each scale degree in root-position.

[markesquire]

Thank you for your responses, but wow, these approaches still sound very difficult, and seem like they would take much longer than 20 hours (and only equip me to play in C, etc).

How about a limited list of chord shapes in order of importance: (1) major 7th, (2) minor 7th, etc.

And a limited list of scales/modes in order of importance: (1) ionian, (2) dorian, etc.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think there's a literal 20 hour equivalent in jazz -compared to learning six basic open position chords on the guitar and some simple scales. Maybe just comping at a pretty basic level or something.

[TH]

Balance. Because there are so many variables in the execution of this art, the improvisational art, any player who has mastered the solo will tell you it's a tricky BALANCE between what options are given in a particular piece (changes and how to hear/perceive them), a balance of what you can play (fingers) and how to actually play (by ear), a balance of what you chose to commit to in a line and where to play it, and the trickier balance of how to use space to create an actual solo...as opposed to an exercise.

Your TED talk addresses the acquisition of a skill, not the complex dynamics of learning an art. For that you need to know the big picture, to see where the details are employed. While you're watching TED talks, check out Iain McGilchrist. It's possible to get many different opinions on what is most essential, but you can't sum it up with a detail, I'm sorry to say.

Passable jazz vocabulary? Yes you can do that, maybe even by learning a really good comprehensive etude by rote, but learning jazz guitar is something I truly believe is a balancing act of learning tools, listening skills, perspective of how to apply them and having something to say. The small tools will not provide that; maybe point the way but not guarantee understanding by a long shot.

Be careful not to confuse conversational tourists' phrases with idiomatic language acquisition.
Jazz is lexicon, syntax and semantics.
Establish a sense of the balance needed before you go about loading yourself up with the work you take on.

' My opinion anyway.
David

[markesquire]

Thanks, David. I understand the difference between rote memorization of tourist phrases and actual language acquisition.

But right now, I'm completely silent. I need some building blocks to hold onto (walk before I run), but every time I look for help with the most important chords/scales, it seems like the response contemplates taking the first steps of an insanely complicated dance, instead of just teaching me a simple dance that can be added to as I develop over time.

[MarkRhodes]

The 20-hour mission of the person cited in the OP was to learn to play guitar.

The question then became, "What is the jazz guitar equivalent?"

Are we assuming that the person who will take this 20-hour approach already knows how to play guitar? (Basic chords, scales, and arpeggios.)

If so, the path will be very different than if the student trying to learn to play guitar AND learn to play jazz at the same time.

If not, well, step one is to learn to play the guitar. (How to hold it, pick, make chords, the major scale...)

[bako]

It would be helpful if before the formal 20 hour countdown began after 20 years of
intensive listening to live and recorded jazz. Also, plenty exposure to watching masterful
guitarists play. Ready, set go, 20 hours.

Take all you've heard and observed and try to implement it by any means necessary.
Good luck.

Thankfully, average human life expectancy is much longer than 20 hours.
Our musical mastery race against time is more forgiving.
Efficiency is a worthy attribute to aspire towards.
Spending a relaxed period of time just acclimating to a new pursuit is also not the worst thing.

[TH]

Thanks, David. I understand the difference between rote memorization of tourist phrases and actual language acquisition.

But right now, I'm completely silent. I need some building blocks to hold onto (walk before I run), but every time I look for help with the most important chords/scales, it seems like the response contemplates taking the first steps of an insanely complicated dance, instead of just teaching me a simple dance that can be added to as I develop over time.

Mark, yes I hear you. One of the dilemmas you'll encounter is everyone you ask here will be at a different point in an ongoing endeavour. It took me years of working with chord scales to realize the essence in good solos was rhythmic phrasing and good relative ear training.
Take the advice of the forum members, they're good people, but take it with a grain of salt.
You want to know the clear priority of operations to learn jazz guitar? You haven't even told us what you want to do.
If you really want to do something enlightening, go back to the origins, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Don Byas, Charlie Christian and you'll recognize a simplified toolset used with great effect and elegance. Then listen to how and why the music developed into what we know.
You may find that getting to know a more essential origin of a complex music will be helpful, though not your ultimate goal.

I have students work with a simple diatonic scale, but listen to swing music in small ensemble, Lester Young with Nat King Cole... that kind of stuff. It's not what you want to do ultimately, but it'll show you something of the FEEL of the music of which the scale system is a part of.
The people I know who have a real command of the music all had an exposure to the vibe of the music when they were early in their development. They learned to listen as the learned the language. The sound preceeded the fingers. They had music in their ears.

Take a little time to listen; infuse your ears with something you really love, then envision yourself in the driver's seat. What seems important besides scale choice?
I know this is oblique advice for someone who wants a fast solution. Sometimes being intelligently patient is actually the faster route. Know the sound. Ask the question. Be open to the answer.

David

[markesquire]

Thanks, David. You all make a good point: in order to identify a good 20-hour curriculum, you need to know where the student is starting and where they want to go.

Where I'm starting from: I have played guitar for several years, but on a basic level, mostly by ear. I know basic chords and the major/pentatonic scales. I have tried to work through a jazz book, but it's super complicated, and it will take a LOOONG time of becoming a music-theory-rocket-scientiest before I am even able to enjoy playing a simple song.

Where I want to go: Ultimately, I would like to be able to play and improvise with a group. Obviously, I could do that in a super simple way, or in a masterful way (or somewhere in between). I want to start by taking 20 hours to learn the basic chords and scales that will enable me to do that in a simple way. For example, I'd like to know the 5-10 most-used chord shapes from the most common Real Book standards, and be able to do very simple solos over those chord progressions. That would at least give me some sense of accomplishment (however small), and will give something fun to build upon by adding new chords/colors/scales over time.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks, David. You all make a good point: in order to identify a good 20-hour curriculum, you need to know where the student is starting and where they want to go.

Where I'm starting from: I have played guitar for several years, but on a basic level, mostly by ear. I know basic chords and the major/pentatonic scales. I have tried to work through a jazz book, but it's super complicated, and it will take a LOOONG time of becoming a music-theory-rocket-scientiest before I am even able to enjoy playing a simple song.

Where I want to go: Ultimately, I would like to be able to play and improvise with a group. Obviously, I could do that in a super simple way, or in a masterful way (or somewhere in between). I want to start by taking 20 hours to learn the basic chords and scales that will enable me to do that in a simple way. For example, I'd like to know the 5-10 most-used chord shapes from the most common Real Book standards, and be able to do very simple solos over those chord progressions. That would at least give me some sense of accomplishment (however small), and will give something fun to build upon by adding new chords/colors/scales over time.

Check out the free trial of Willie Thomas's program. Jazz everyone.com. Teaches very basic vocabulary based on pentatonic and adds to that systematically, over time. There's a lot of ear stuff, where you copy what he's playing etc. It's based on a curriculum used with schoolkids in jazz bands etc. That being said, the guitar chord material is very basic as well.

I personally feel that what he's doing answers a lot of the "problems" with a lot of methods out there , especially the overly heavy focus on scales/theory in many of them. This method is mostly vocabulary based, getting a lot of basic jazz in your ears from the beginning. answers a lot of the "what to play ?" As opposed to "what scale to play?".

But again, I think the problem for most guitarists is that they are going to hit some walls with basic instrument layout etc.

[jordanklemons]

This is a super interesting topic... one I think about a lot as a teacher. I once watched a video that talked about the "best way to learn a foreign language". I think it seemed like a click bait, BS headline, but was attempting to learn a couple of new languages using some apps at the time, so I gave it a shot. It was actually quite fascinating and helpful, and poignant to this conversation.

The gist of it was to skip the general stuff. Don't worry about memorizing the numbers and the days of the week, and months, and all those huge lists. I was trying to learn Mandarin from an app at the time and had spent months trying to all of my basic numbers down, the vocab for saying days and months and dates, super super basic stuff that's good to know... but I wasn't anywhere near even able to say anything of value. If I were dropped in China, the ability to be able to say hello, ask where the bathroom is, and ask for help would be far more useful... and then the rest could come later. His advice was to make a list of the 20 most used words and spend a few days to a week practicing those words (he offered some practices to do so). Then make a list of the next 20 most used words. Few days to a week. By approaching it this way, you're starting with the meat, and then filling in the rest as you go. Sort of like you can't decorate a christmas tree until you go get the dang tree. Doesn't matter how many ornaments you own, if you have nothing to hang them from.... ???

I take a similar approach when teaching. I have a pretty bizarre and unique on this as after having spent 25 years on the instrument (15 of which were dedicated to jazz), earning a masters degree, and working as an adjunct instructor at a major university... I got sick and had to stop playing for a long time. I now have a huge wealth of knowledge and experience in my head, but the hands of an intermediate guitarist... I lost all my muscle memory. I'm also dealing with a hand injury, so my practice time is VERY limited. Essentially I'm teaching myself to play again by prioritizing the information in my head and focusing on what NEEDS to get back into my hands first.

I don't know exactly where you are, so it's tough to create a curriculum with your specific needs and goals in mind... but if I had to start with a total beginner it would consist of essentially 2 things. How to play melodically and how to do very basic comping.

Melodic playing is actually quite easy to accomplish if we don't let ourselves fall into the trap of letting scales be our starting point. It takes years to master scales and years or decades more to learn to play lyrical melodies using them that don't just sound like running scales. I approach this quite simply by starting with basic triads (getting the christmas tree into the living room) and then slowly starting to ornament it with other tension notes. Slowly. Like a triad with one added note for melodic tension (the star on the top of the tree). It's amazing how much juice we can squeeze out of a 4 note melodic structure. It's impossible to sound like we're running scales, it's simple, it takes very little time to memorize, and it gives great clarity and direction to every note we play in a solo. Over time, we can odd more tension notes if we want... building all the way back up to full scales potentially. But again, learning the full scale before we can play simple but musical ideas with smaller structures is like memorizing the names of the months before we can say "I need water." or "Where is the bathroom."

Depending on the situation we're trying to play in, that may be enough to start with. If we're in college and playing in a combo with a pianist who's great at comping and loves it, that's what I would focus someone on. More often, we need some level of comfort with comping. Things get tricky here because we want to learn to be flexible when comping... to be able to comp differently in a duo than if we're playing in a full group for instance. I always recommend people begin with basic shell voicing. 1-3-7... maybe a b5 for diminished chords when it feels necessary. The focus should be on knowing a few shapes and being able to get through simple chord changes (like the a 2 5 1 or the blues) with a killin sense of groove. From there, so many different directions are possible. Getting rid of the root and just playing the 3 and 7 to get out of the bass players way. Or adding in passing chords to help create more momentum. Or full on chord subs. Or whatever.

Both of these should emphasize groove, time, and feel and should be approach very slowly and very respectfully even if they seem simple. The stronger we nail down these 2 fundamentals, to better we will sound and the easier it will be to then step up our game to more advanced levels. This is like basic conversational stuff.

And of course, while I didn't mention tunes... all of this should either be done using tunes as templates or as goal posts to work towards. That's always helpful.

A lot of this stuff depends on what style within jazz we want, what kind of sound we want to develop, etc. I'm a big bill evans guy so I'm going to focus far more on harmony and big structures than someone who wants to play in a bebop quartet with a piano player for example. Everyone's different. But melodic playing and basic comping with a great feel I think are pretty essentially in most situations related to jazz.

[docbop]

Thank you for your responses, but wow, these approaches still sound very difficult, and seem like they would take much longer than 20 hours (and only equip me to play in C, etc).

How about a limited list of chord shapes in order of importance: (1) major 7th, (2) minor 7th, etc.

And a limited list of scales/modes in order of importance: (1) ionian, (2) dorian, etc.

Twenty hours you won't learn anything except to mimic finger movements for a tune or two, some finger patterns, and some buzz words like scale, chord, mode. If that's all your want to do just go buy a book of guitar arrangements and learn to play them. That's the musical equivalent of Art world "paint by the numbers". Learning to actually play music especially Jazz it a major commitment of time, dedication to the music, and hard work.

I would say the answer to your OP is pick a song you like and do like Joe Pass and others did learn the melody and the basic chords. Now keep playing that song over and over till bored with it, now start embellishing the melody some extra notes here and there. Maybe some bigger chords. Get bored again try to add a fill here and there. More chords keep experimenting. Get bored and expand more till you feel you've like the way you play the song. That process and using your ear to find those notes and chords, get together with a friend who plays and share ideas, that process will teach you what you need to know. Now learn another song and the process will go faster this time, and another song process is getting real fast now. You aren't going to care about the time, because you were loving what you were doing.

[rlrhett]

Not to highjack, but the Reg second finger thing, do you mean play Cmaj scale G-G-G (two octaves) starting with your second (middle) finger on the lowest G, then A-A-A this time shifting your hand to start with the second finger on the A, then shift again B-B-B with the second finger on the B, etc?


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[christianm77]

Interesting question. I'm not sure you could cram it into 20 hours.

1) 10 simple tunes inc blues and rhythm changes
2) triads, dom7s and maybe dim7 through changes & LNTs
3) melodies
4) swing upbeats while counting the beat
5) basic voicings maj6, min6, dim7

Scales? None maybe. Dominant if time. Up down, thirds, thirds with LNT

[rlrhett]

Not to seem snarky, but I think if you could take basic guitar strumming and be able to comp/improvise over the GASB in 20 hours you would be invited to give your own TED talk.

I began studying jazz only recently after 25 years of playing rock/folk/blues (and that after having began as a child with classical guitar lessons). I was drawn to it BECAUSE it was complex.

To me, jazz is the highest level of technical + intellectual mastery of the instrument. You have to stretch you playing a lot to be able to play jazz standards. There is a big initial learning curve that doesn't lend itself to a 20 hour (or even 40 hour) approach.

It's worth it, though. When things start to click you realize that you understand the instrument and music on a whole new level.


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[eh6794-2.0]

The 20 hour approach is probably why most of us started out playing rock music. Then once we decided we want to play jazz, it took us another 5 years to sound decent.

[TH]

OK markesquire, I just watched the TED talk. Josh Kaufman, right? It's not going to work here.

The things he's talking about, the examples, and the abilities he's talking about are finite and repeatable quantifiable skills of re-creative tasks. He's SO enamoured of this revelation of quick skill acquisition that he doesn't make ANY distinction between finite ability skills (juggling chainsaws as he says) and abilities that come from an integrative assimilation of multi-layered artform.
What the hell am I talking about? Well finite concept skill: Learning to use a Kayak. Clear your mind, practice with your tools, acquire the language toolset and focus and acquire. He plays uke and shows the miracle of playing.

How about build and sail a sailboat? If you don't know about materials, gravity, fluid dynamics, wind, or even how to watertight a structure, you think all those things are gonna come in 20 hours? Sure you can read up on it, copy existing designs, but guess what? In jazz guitar, you've got to DO THAT YOURSELF. If you copy someone else's song note for note, it's not jazz.

Here's why jazz guitar is in the second category. Jazz is a composer's art. You fit your 20 hours into each song you play each time you start a chorus. But to know what to play and in what context, is a hell of a lot more than Mr. Kaufman is thinking.

Jazz is about exercising options in the time constraint of a chord change and executing music while being aware of the number of options needed for the next upcoming chord, phrase, section, chorus... 20 hours? Want to start with a pre-fab rowboat for starters?

Put the idea of applying this TED talk to jazz guitar. This is not a chorus of 3 chord pop. But I like your spirit. If you want to try to learn a chorus of Tea for Two in two months, then yeah, maybe we could get you there in convincing way.
In another thread, I've got some members going through a 20 week course in playing with confidence and proficiency. Even at the slowest speeds and focusing on very specific things it's enormously challenging, and that's knowing basic skills.

Jazz is real time composition and you are discouraged from learning anything by rote ideally. You may not be going after the ideal but you should know the nature of the beast.

TED talks are designed to wow through novel presentation. They're fun. It's just not a good one for this skillset.

David

[markesquire]

The 20 hour approach is probably why most of us started out playing rock music. Then once we decided we want to play jazz, it took us another 5 years to sound decent.

Ok, so what I'm generally hearing is that I simply cannot play and enjoy jazz guitar until I have spent a long time learning to understand the theoretical foundations behind the chords, triads, arpeggios, and scales involved.

But that just can't be true. It looks like Autumn Leaves uses only a few chord shapes. Something is seriously wrong if, in 20 hours, it is simply impossible to equip a non-jazz guitarist to play those chords with some friends, along with a few simple scales that work over the changes. Can a Ph.D. professor in jazz music theory spend a lifetime delving into the inner-relations and musical possibilities in Autumn Leaves? Of course! But the fact that jazz has inexhaustible depths to explore should not prohibit people from playing at a surface level that can progressively deepen over time.

My hope is (was) to find a basic set of chords and scales that would allow me to (very simply, humbly, and quietly) join in playing some of the more common standards -- then to spend the next 20 years adding, improving, and unpacking.

[markesquire]

Just to clarify, I appreciate everyone's input here. I apologize if I seem snarky. I'm just frustrated by how difficult it seems to get started, and maybe I'm having a hard time communicating my intended distinction between (1) sufficient knowledge for basic participation and enjoyment, and (2) sufficient knowledge to "speak" the jazz idiom and understand its nuances. I'm hoping to obtain the former as a motivational and educational means to obtain the latter.

[TH]

My hope is (was) to find a basic set of chords and scales that would allow me to (very simply, humbly, and quietly) join in playing some of the more common standards -- then to spend the next 20 years adding, improving, and unpacking.

DANG! Why didn't you say so.
Something like this?
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/jazz...eId=PLGoP24104

You can learn arrangements. Do that. It's cool. But it doesn't fit the definition of what jazz is for a lot of people.
But it fits the bill for what you describe. Go for it! You can get some of these in a lot less than 20 hours.

David

[eh6794-2.0]

Ok, so what I'm generally hearing is that I simply cannot play and enjoy jazz guitar until I have spent a long time learning to understand the theoretical foundations behind the chords, triads, arpeggios, and scales involved.

If your goal is to play for your own enjoyment, you can do it with the list of chords the guy posted in the previous post. But that won't sound good to others who enjoy jazz music... it might impress a few random people. I still cringe when I hear myself play, but I also cringe when I hear 90% of the YouTubers play; I am very critical.

Also, keep this analogy in mind: the "theory" is just the alphabet for your mother language. If you want to be a writer, it takes a lot of practice, passion and logic.

[matt.guitarteacher]

But that just can't be true. It looks like Autumn Leaves uses only a few chord shapes. Something is seriously wrong if, in 20 hours, it is simply impossible to equip a non-jazz guitarist to play those chords with some friends, along with a few simple scales that work over the changes. Can a Ph.D. professor in jazz music theory spend a lifetime delving into the inner-relations and musical possibilities in Autumn Leaves? Of course! But the fact that jazz has inexhaustible depths to explore should not prohibit people from playing at a surface level that can progressively deepen over time.

My hope is (was) to find a basic set of chords and scales that would allow me to (very simply, humbly, and quietly) join in playing some of the more common standards -- then to spend the next 20 years adding, improving, and unpacking.

okay, I'll go with you on Autumn leaves, but that tune is BEST case scenario in terms of jazz-tune-difficulty. Honestly. It's the default easy exercise tune of all jazz teachers.

Check out Willie Thomas . Seriously. Start pentatonic and build from there. Learn some basic vocabulary and super easy chords he's got there. it's not really guitar specific. So, you're going to have to do your own decision-making/limiting. Do it in 2 positions, a perfect fourth apart, if you like : one with the root on the sixth string, the other with the root on the fifth string.

Along the lines of what Jordan is talking about with the TEDTalk, you might just skip to the early lessons with Dorian, using a minor pentatonic plus a 9th approach, (although I don't see how the earlier stuff on blues could be considered "wasted").

At the very least, you're going to learn the language of the music, even if it's simple.

[rlrhett]

Do you want to learn to play a Jazz standard or how to play Jazz?

Jazz is the art of composing on the fly using a given melody and, to a lesser degree, a given harmonic progression. That's what most of us are talking about.

What you need to play a single Jazz tune, ok... that you can do in 20 hours.

Here is my list:

Cmaj7 on the middle 4 strings. Root on the 5 (A) string.

Amin7 played on strings 6,4,3,2 root on the 6th

Dmin7 on the middle four, root on the 5th

G7 root on 6th played on the 6,4,3,2 strings.

Learn the shapes. Understand that the same shape that gave you Cmaj7 can be Fmaj7 or Bbmaj7 if you put your hand so that the F is where the C was.

In a fake book, ignore any extension. Amin7#11? Just play the Amin7, etc.

You will be jumping around a lot. It won't sound very slick. Forget about taking a solo for now.

Oh, and something I wish I hadn't ignored: most jazz standards are SONGS. lean the original words and melody. Play your fake book chords while singing the song. And HAVE FUN! (It really can be fun).


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