What do you think is most difficult for beginning jazz guitarists?

[R Neil]

Try this - take a song chord progression

Play 1 on every chord, in the same sort of part of the neck, in the same sort of register
Do the same with 3
Do the same with 5

Mix it up.

Now, once you are comfortable with this in all positions, add in 7 9 and 13.

Would appreciate a bit more details on this ... please. Sometimes the comments around here seem in a shorthand I haven't quite mastered.



Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[christianm77]

Would appreciate a bit more details on this ... please. Sometimes the comments around here seem in a shorthand I haven't quite mastered.



Stumbling fingers still need love ...

Sure. I'm thinking of doing a video demonstrating the exercise. If I do, I will post it here.

[R Neil]

Sure. I'm thinking of doing a video demonstrating the exercise. If I do, I will post it here.

Would so appreciate it! I love the learning that is available here ... and the company.

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[Hep To The Jive]

No Adam Rogers

I average 8 bars in around 15-30 minutes, before my brain gets tired.

I know people who can transcribe almost at real time.

Nice! Do you imagine the fretboard or piano keys while trying to figure out what notes are those? After you write them down, do you play it right back on the guitar to see if everything is correct?

[christianm77]

Nice! Do you imagine the fretboard or piano keys while trying to figure out what notes are those? After you write them down, do you play it right back on the guitar to see if everything is correct?

I don't visualise the instrument.... But I do check on the guitar...

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it would be hard to take a high school age student who likes jazz and has not yet mastered the fretboard, and tell him, "put the guitar down, we're going to work on solfege". Or, "put the guitar down, don't touch it, and transcribe this solo". I think it would be a rare student who would take to that approach, even though, in retrospect, it may be best.

That might work better for a college music major, but, there is an argument that the college student may have already passed the optimum age for really getting this in his brain.

My impression is that some people have more discriminating ears than others. If you're not genetically blessed, you may need plenty of ear training early on to compensate.

[princeplanet]

Me, e.g.



Now then, can you show me?

Robert

Well, my point is that it is cumbersome and confusing to try to without being in front of each other in person. Videos are better than nothing, but the instant feedback that can occur in a 5 minute interaction with a teacher is worth perhaps 20 question/answer/question loops in a forum. Sure, Teacher = Money, but then Time = Money too!

How much is it worth for each of us to potentially shorten our learning path by several years? $100? $100,000 ????

[christianm77]

I think it would be hard to take a high school age student who likes jazz and has not yet mastered the fretboard, and tell him, "put the guitar down, we're going to work on solfege". Or, "put the guitar down, don't touch it, and transcribe this solo". I think it would be a rare student who would take to that approach, even though, in retrospect, it may be best.

It didn't involve solfege, but I am reminded of Tristano's teaching.

As a teacher the one thing I find myself having to remind students when teaching a phrase or a melody by ear is that they have to be able to sing it correctly. If they can do this putting it on the guitar is actually pretty easy.

However, students naturally go to the guitar too early, half baked. They forget what they were trying to play and lose the thread.

Hence, the guitar world is full of aimless noodlers who don't audiate.

That might work better for a college music major, but, there is an argument that the college student may have already passed the optimum age for really getting this in his brain.

My impression is that some people have more discriminating ears than others. If you're not genetically blessed, you may need plenty of ear training early on to compensate.

Well I've never been a naturally good aural musician but I've improved a lot in the past few years. I hear music in more detail now. I don't think it's to late to up your game.

Learning to hear music is an ongoing process.

[emanresu]

For OP - time/feel, ear training and "right path" imo.

Since the major goal is vague(playing awesome or smthin'), for starting players is difficult to see what will benefit them the most. There are different talents needed for jazz, all kinds of little skills and "skillets" needed to make it all work. Can't say what could be easy or hard because people are just so different - some can have almost a photographic memory and play back dozens of tunes, some just cant do it without a great effort. Some have good timing almost coded into their genes, some have to struggle. Or physical technique.. etc. Some can hear and play back stuff without ever doing ear training practice but those people are rare.

About the goal, maybe the best attitude is try to reach a point when you feel that this is ok now and the rest of the training just adds on top of it, adds value. Time/feel is a very big part of it. For me, the important thing was to practice as the current lick,scale,groove or ear training routine had to be well enough that my imagined audience would be pleased with it. Even if it was something 2 bars with a metronome. Might be another way for other people but imaging that these thingies that I spent 5-20 minutes on, had to be good enough for 10k-audience added some umph to the practice. That worked for me, but can't speak for others of course

[don_oz]

Learning the Fretboard, but i guess that MAYBE someone can't really teach you that. It takes many years to master.

[rpjazzguitar]

It didn't involve solfege, but I am reminded of Tristano's teaching.

<<<As a teacher the one thing I find myself having to remind students when teaching a phrase or a melody by ear is that they have to be able to sing it correctly. If they can do this putting it on the guitar is actually pretty easy.>>>

Agreed. I recently took a lesson on Brazilian music from a skilled drummer who recommended constantly singing the tamborim pattern (this refers to a kind of Brazilian clave, more or less). And, he also made a distinction between time and pulse. Time is mathematical, pulse is feel. My guess is that when you sing the pattern it's easier to get the feel right. That's important, because playing great jazz is so dependent on feel.



<<<Well I've never been a naturally good aural musician but I've improved a lot in the past few years. I hear music in more detail now. I don't think it's to late to up your game. Learning to hear music is an ongoing process.

>

It's never too late to improve, but I think the brain is more plastic early in life. So it's good to get the foundation in early.

[R Neil]

Everyone is different,I guess. Every good player I know spent a lot of time and recommends using the metronome. Especially set to *very slow*. There's nothing like soloing over an uptempo tune with the metronome giving you every 4rth downbeat to expose how weak your time is. The "metronomic time" vs "Pulse" thing is a great point *Once you can play in time*. If you don't have reasonably accurate time you aren't going to have the skills to play creatively with time.


Incidentally, there are books for that too: the great German jazz/experimental guitarist Uwe Kropinski has a book with a cool approach to improving your time
timing problems? "getting in time" helps - www.kropinski.com
I'll have to take a look at the Longo book.




I can't say I agree with this. The point of learning a tune all keys (or at least in several different keys) is to get the harmonic equivalent of interval ear training. To improvise over changes musically requires you to feel the harmonic motion in the same way that most of us can feel melodic motion. If you can't play "mary had a little lamb" instantly starting at any random note, you are going to have trouble improvising meaningfully. In the same way, if you can't play the changes to a tune starting at any random chord, you aren't going to be able to solo over the changes effectively: this is why people call it "soloing over changes" rather than "soloing over chords". Practically speaking, not many of us have the time to learn "26-2" in all keys, but for example, if you take one of the "top 10 jazz tunes every one needs to know" lists and woodshed each of them in many keys, e.g. starting at a random chord until your fingers move effortlessly from chord to chord (without thinking about the name of the chord), your ability to improvise will improve, at least in my experience.

I'm always fascinated in such discussions by the variety of experience and approach brought to the "table" here. Especially the discussions on the difference between chords and changes with the underlying implications of that as the basis of improvisation.

My brain is an analytics computational machine. I think in many ways that's all it does. And the total depth and breadth of the data needed to compute and analyze all this out is ... well ... rather like flaunting white powder in front of an addict.

But there's a vast difference between analytic comprehension and real-time ability to perform. I can develop quite decent mechanical skill on a guitar passage say, with whatever level of practice it takes to master.

I can craft melodic designs that when performed people like and find beautiful. Say, compositions for bell choirs, my own arrangement of a pop or rock tune on guitar. Carefully thought out, tested, and ... crafted.

Whether through high school and college on trombone or acting on a stage or playing guitar in rock/blues combos, or the last few years with jazz, there is a universally given adjective to any attempt at improvisation that I ever do: wooden. I can perfectly recreate the experience of a block of wood in any medium.

For so many of the players and listeners improvisation is the heart and nature of jazz. Often to the point that if one isn't good at improv, well ... one doesn't really play ... jazz ...

While it's not always intentional (for many, at least) what this can do is push someone who can be a very good ensemble performer, someone who can provide a great basis for others to ... shine? ... to push that person completely out of performing or attempting to participate in jazz at all.

The constant surrounding assumption of many of the Jazz players I've been around is that someone who can't improv just isn't the same as ... "us". Hanging with those who view one as ... a lesser creature? ... becomes a drag.

But that's the natural human state ... if one is focused on something whether it's sprinting or Opera vocal or jazz ... well, one naturally "places" others according to how one perceives their respective abilities in the same pursuit.

I've come to greatly appreciate the vocal stars who sincerely value the role of every singer in the chorus as a peer in the creation of the performance. And also the patience and care on this forum by so many on how they think through ... practice ... test ... develop ... their skills at improv playing.

Even if for me it's mental joy I'll never be able to do "live". What you can do, is to me a wonderful and joy to behold. And the gift of these discussions is a joy to my psyche.

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[don_oz]

it's more of a thing that is always present (for me at least). Knowledge of the fretboard, and knowing everything on the fretboard.

Oz

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's true that every good player I know recommends practicing with a metronome. However, several have admitted that they don't actually do it.

Also, there are different views about whether practicing with a click is the same as practicing with a drum machine.

Bottom line is that you should do what works for you. Also, remember that whatever path you choose, there's a great player who did it some other way.

One other point. The problem I identified in my own playing -- trying to play phrases faster than I could actually play them in time -- is something that I hear often in intermediate players.

The other thing I hear often is people trying to play polyrhythms and then, when they come back to the basic beat, they've moved it slightly. I think the process is that you decide to, say, do a fill, and while you're planning and executing it, your attention is more divided. Now you have to be aware of two rhythms at once -- and it's very easy to lose track of exactly where you are.

I think some people successfully address that problem with the metronome or drum machine. Others, though, come to rely on the machine and don't internalize the pulse. The remedy that occurs to me is recording and critiqueing.

[christianm77]

>

It's never too late to improve, but I think the brain is more plastic early in life. So it's good to get the foundation in early.

Of course. It's like learning languages. Of course if you are an adult learner, what can you do? Well lots actually.

I was a pretty late starter (15) and I've come to terms with it. There are many people out there in the music world who went to specialist music schools and started their instruments at 6 and so on and have musicianship that astounds me.

However - they also call me for gigs, and are happy to play with me! So that must mean that on some level I offer something as a musician, even if my sheer technical musicianship will never be on a par.

TBH I wish I'd had the learning tools I have now at my disposal 10 years ago. It's a big deal to know things like ear training, sight singing can be learned in a structured, intelligent way. I've done the bulk of my work on musicianship over the past 5-10 years.

There are also strategies that are more, and less effective for certain things. For example:

- Interval training is less useful (n my experience) for transcription of tonal melodies than functional solfege style ear training.
- Resolving the notes in a chord is great for working out unfamiliar harmony, but the quickest way in jazz is often bass note/chord quality
- Comprehensible input is always easier to hear - for example a line you have heard elsewhere is easier to hear as a totality. A line which you haven't heard might need to be 'spelled out' using your functional ear training, say (Reading works the same way.)

[christianm77]

I think it's true that every good player I know recommends practicing with a metronome. However, several have admitted that they don't actually do it.

Also, there are different views about whether practicing with a click is the same as practicing with a drum machine.

Bottom line is that you should do what works for you. Also, remember that whatever path you choose, there's a great player who did it some other way.

One other point. The problem I identified in my own playing -- trying to play phrases faster than I could actually play them in time -- is something that I hear often in intermediate players.

The other thing I hear often is people trying to play polyrhythms and then, when they come back to the basic beat, they've moved it slightly. I think the process is that you decide to, say, do a fill, and while you're planning and executing it, your attention is more divided. Now you have to be aware of two rhythms at once -- and it's very easy to lose track of exactly where you are.

I think some people successfully address that problem with the metronome or drum machine. Others, though, come to rely on the machine and don't internalize the pulse. The remedy that occurs to me is recording and critiqueing.

I often use a metronome at present (usually to set a tempo that allows me to learn stuff 'effortlessly') but some teachers (Jeff Berlin, Mike Longo) have advised against using one. I used to think using a metronome was an absolute fundamental, so this surprised me.

[rpjazzguitar]

My path has been very similar.

I don't think I was born with a great ear, and I didn't know that ear training existed until fairly recently.
So, I see some missed opportunity.

My teachers never mentioned ear training, but it wasn't at all clear back then what I was trying to accomplish. I took "guitar lessons", so they taught me things about the guitar. The idea that I would, years later, be playing in situations where I would be challenged rhythmically and need to identify oddball reharmonizations on the fly -- well, they had no reason to suspect it or try to prepare me for it. And, it may well be that, back then, they took a good ear for granted. With so little pedagogy available for jazz, the only people who could play it had to have good ears. Nowadays, it's possible to compensate for a tin ear with a lot of careful study.

Of course, it's always possible to progress. I know the difference between what I can do and what the pros I admire can do. That said, I do get called for gigs, so either I'm doing something right, or a lot of guitar players are out of town!

[rpjazzguitar]

I often use a metronome at present (usually to set a tempo that allows me to learn stuff 'effortlessly') but some teachers (Jeff Berlin, Mike Longo) have advised against using one. I used to think using a metronome was an absolute fundamental, so this surprised me.

I don't want to misquote him, but I recall that Jimmy Bruno said that "metronomic time is not good time". Others have quoted Jimmy as recommending against practicing with a metronome (I couldn't find a quote right from Jimmy).
Please correct me if I am not remembering this correctly.

I know awesome players who claim to practice with a metronome and who are the furthest thing from stiff. My impression is that the metronome helps some people more than others.

[R Neil]

I don't want to misquote him, but I recall that Jimmy Bruno said that "metronomic time is not good time". Others have quoted Jimmy as recommending against practicing with a metronome (I couldn't find a quote right from Jimmy).
Please correct me if I am not remembering this correctly.

I know awesome players who claim to practice with a metronome and who are the furthest thing from stiff. My impression is that the metronome helps some people more than others.

You're right, i think it the old different strokes thing ... we are a marvelously diverse species.

A comment earlier mentioned how much someone learned from hearing recordings of themselves playing.

That is a very ... good ... and often challenging ... practice.

Golf teacher Hank Haney quotes Tiger Woods talking about the difference between feel and real.

You're hitting the ball to the right because your swing is coming across the ball. You need to change the path of your swing. Most people will make a HUGE change in their swing ... that is barely if any different from their normal one.

But ... it <felt> so different. Truth is they needed a change probably 10 times in degrees past what seemed excessive. They couldn't see or feel it.

Recording your playing ... it's rather a naked result. No excuses, you did what was recorded.

GREAT learning.



Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[rpjazzguitar]

A comment earlier mentioned how much someone learned from hearing recordings of themselves playing.

That is a very ... good ... and often challenging ... practice.>>>

One of the things I learned quickly from listening to my own recordings on gigs and in jams was that I often found things seriously wrong with stuff that felt great at the moment I played it. That is, that I didn't accurately perceive what I was doing at the moment I was doing it. It continues to be true, but, I hope, not quite as often.

The realization that I couldn't accurately judge things while I was playing, well, it was sobering.

[R Neil]

A comment earlier mentioned how much someone learned from hearing recordings of themselves playing.

That is a very ... good ... and often challenging ... practice.>>>

One of the things I learned quickly from listening to my own recordings on gigs and in jams was that I often found things seriously wrong with stuff that felt great at the moment I played it. That is, that I didn't accurately perceive what I was doing at the moment I was doing it. It continues to be true, but, I hope, not quite as often.

The realization that I couldn't accurately judge things while I was playing, well, it was sobering.

Oh ... yeah. I've been through recording trombone and voice for development with teachers and advisors, and recorded my jazz guitar efforts knowing the use of it.

It ain't enjoyable much of the time. But sure is a learning experience.

As is getting out with others good at what you want to do, and doing it around, with, and together. If I were younger and had interest in public performance that would be very necessary.

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[wolflen]

thank you all for you comments and insights..this is a great topic

we all are learning at all stages of our lives..all of creativity is illusive..there are really few tools to expose the endless beauty in any artistic realm..here we try and understand the logic of music..and then interpret it on an illogical instrument that can seem calm and reasonable and turn on a dime and be the most frustrating PITA .. yet we push forward..taking years to learn music and its mechanics - theory and harmony - the melody-how to play it and how to hide it but let it peek through little at a time..

I watched a UTube of Oscar Peterson and Bill "Count" Basie .. doing duets..they played the blues..a fairly slow tempo..and of course it was beyond magic..but what came through was the clarity of their knowledge..there was no hesitation or doubt or concern of how it will sound to others..it was ego free..

this can not be taught..it happens when "you are the music" the term "it becomes you" .. all the learning we do over the years should have tangible results .. that at times I feel the music flow through me to the degree that I cry..and I am thankful that I have the discipline to practice when I don't want to and push myself to learn something new..

someone here mentioned playing a piece and figuring out the names of the chords after..yes..after years of mechanical practice to know the forms and their inversions and voice leading aspects and have them become music and not exercises..

I agree that listening must be one main aspect of learning music .. having met musicians that may say.."hey lets jam.." and go on a 10 min fantasy solo on their own..they cant hear what they are playing or have played..or what I played .. but they consider themselves musicians..such is so..

for those of us who teach..and I am one..it is important to be aware of the students abilities at present..trying to explain why your teaching them a certain chord progression or any part of music..and if they are young and want to "learn fast" so they can play like steve vai..in two weeks...how to deal with that reality ..knowing they wont practice and feel they are not making progress after three lessons..

I come to this forum to learn how others learn music and the guitar..there are some very talented players here and I am glad to have a chance to exchange ideas with you..

[ronjazz]

Freddie Green sure spent his lifetime on it, but maybe he wasn't as good as the rest of us.

His gig died with him.

[FuseHead]

Not getting lost / always being on the right measure

And somebody else said this one already....

"The hard part is when the pianist starts reharmonizing on the fly and you have to figure out what he's doing so that you can contribute something."

TRUE DAT!!!! and it happens all the time.


Being able to change key is pretty easy on most stringed instruments. IMO anyways.

[Noah D'Innocenzo]

Need to clarify the question. When you say a "beginning jazz guitarist", what do you really mean?



- A person who has some musical training, and has played some guitar? (Some music; some guitar)

- A person who has no musical training, and has never played guitar? (No music; no guitar)

- A person who has played some guitar, but not much formal training? (Little music; some guitar)

- A oerson who has some musical training, but no guitar, and no jazz. (Some music; no guitar; no jazz)


There are probably other possibilities too. Anyway, you can see what I'm getting at. These are all vastly different students in terms of "prior knowledge base", and will require vastly different approaches.

I mean all of the above. You're absolutely correct that as a private instructor, one needs to tailor the material to the pre-existing skill set. The reason I left the question so vague is so that everyone was able to contribute: total beginners to music, beginners to jazz and even intermediate to advanced players. I really just wanted to get everyone's insight on the current state of affairs.