On the importance of basic scales and arpeggios

**pamosmusic** · 06-17-2016, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

what I'm worried about, are the multitudes of beginners who read through these threads (it's easy to forget how many people read through these threads) and aren't yet able to separate the wheat from chaff.

I totally get what you mean ... there was a long thread about that same sort of thing that Jordan (and sort of me) started a few weeks ago that got derailed into oblivion. But yea ... In this particular case there were ample recordings of the people involved so that someone could listen and see what they thought they wanted to go with. I also think that the push-back on this one made it pretty clear that (to say nothing of it's veracity) his claim was in a negligible minority which at least might help assign it some weight.

**jasonc** · 06-17-2016, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

As it is, I am working now on Girl Talk. I've written out the changes and melody as Reg played it, and I'm going to work now on the organ accompaniment, bass and percussion. If I were you, Matt, if you want to play this game, you might want to work on your version. Of course, if you don't want to play....

What, no string section?

**pkirk** · 06-17-2016, 06:38 PM

Incidentally, Brecker is really burning it up on that video of the OP. And it's fun to follow the transcription along with the solo.

**pamosmusic** · 06-17-2016, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Nice post. You know, I think that "Fun" is a key word there too.

....

Thanks for the video.

Yea I mean I think that's sort of the secret weapon. Problem is that a lot of the time stuff isn't fun when it's still difficult so you have to get used to the way it feels to sort of always be a little off balance ... which is tough.

Glad you liked it!

It was a little bit of a rush job between ordering Thai takeout and the food arriving ... so ...

**yaclaus** · 06-18-2016, 04:58 AM

If you study your scales and arpegios you might(!) end up sounding like this

https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...s-masterclass/

Tasty s***!

Must one study arpeggios? Most most most most definitely. I love them. This discussion really really clarified it for me, thanks everyone!

**targuit** · 06-18-2016, 11:27 AM

Yaclaus -

Are you referring to the five minute clip here or is there a longer video? Certainly nice playing and an intelligent concept. Might have been nice to see the melody line transcribed as notation. A plus.

**Reg** · 06-18-2016, 11:33 AM

Yea, I just posted Girl Talk because of all the talkkkkkkkkkk. Here's another collection of scales, really, recorded these at sound check before a gig, so it's not really a performance, I just talked guys into recording because everything was miked, we were backing a vocalist. Mellow mood and a vocal tune...Detour Ahead.
Typical gig, get hired to back vocalist at gig... sound check and rehearsal right before. yea we read her charts... I don't remember where gig was, last night I opened for Pete Escovedo at big outdoor private event. Loud latin jazz solo guitar... was cool, you can feel the power, haaa. not the easiest gig...even for only 1 hour.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 06-18-2016, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea, I just posted Girl Talk because of all the talkkkkkkkkkk.

Yeah. I felt like that was being missed.... :-)

**yaclaus** · 06-18-2016, 01:29 PM

Just a snippet of a good educational video. Im surprised he's so conventional in his practice because he sounds so hip. In the video everything is divided into three simple concepts: guide tones, scales and arpeggios.

**grahambop** · 06-18-2016, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by yaclaus

If you study your scales and arpegios you might(!) end up sounding like this

https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...s-masterclass/

Tasty s***!

Must one study arpeggios? Most most most most definitely. I love them. This discussion really really clarified it for me, thanks everyone!

Interesting, Mike Moreno is the only player I have seen who holds the pick in a similar way to me. I feel a bit happier about it now!

**Reg** · 06-18-2016, 03:05 PM

Yea... so guide tones, scales and arps... again, all this material is basic and shouldn't really be debated. I think Boston Joe's point about knowing yourself etc... is extremely important. But at the end of the tune.... there are no excuses for not having basic down... I'm obviously talking about being able to perform jazz. Not memorizing something and repeating in the classical tradition. Not saying there is anything wrong with that... just don't call it jazz.

So after the basics is where playing jazz becomes more fun. Guide tones can become targets, so instead of stringing together chord tones or extensions.... your stringing together tonal references which can become functional targets. That means... your opening different layers of harmonic relationships between those old guide tones.

And the scales and arps can become layered also... each note of a scale or arpeggio can have multiple relationships and references... besides the basic reference of the scale... or arpeggio.

The reason most go through all this BS during practice, even if your not the type of person etc... or you don't have the time or whatever... there are plenty of excuses.

Anyway so when you perform or practice performing, you don't get run over trying to figure out where your at or what's going on. You can also memorize melody organization... lines etc... and just basically force them over changes because... the melody is what counts etc... generally works better with non breathing musicians, etc...

Look... I've been through all the BS, I can cover, sight read anything etc.... and I still play very simple, but my simple playing really locks into grooves and reflects the music. Most don't really hear all that's can be implied by playing simple... but most do say they can feel it etc...

**targuit** · 06-18-2016, 05:00 PM

Peter - Be careful young man - you are not as good as you fantasize you are. I suggest you reread the thread and note who first critiqued whom in a passive aggressive manner. Then post your reply here.

But let me help you in that difficult endeavor for some who are challenged. Actually, Matt complained about my responses and Jeff suggested that I should post something. Please reread the thread and feel free to cite Chapter and verse. But attention to the detail, Junior.

**targuit** · 06-18-2016, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Back to the OP, there's this constant chiding of would-be purveyors of CST, those who would advocate for developing technique through playing scales arp, or exercises. Talk down and mock basically everything Reg advocates and then:

But how about the original thread topic? We know Reg plays well. Like the original topic of Brecker/Bird, how does the work of developing fundamental techniques through the study of arps/scales/technical studies influence the end product in a player like Reg? Is it, in fact, arrogant and disrespectful to completely disregard his own opinion of the importance of it?

Are we actually suggesting that Reg got to that level in spite of "wasting" so much time with technical studies, when he actually points to them as being crucial? Enough with the flattery BS! What are we talking about? Roses and "we all love each other"...."let's all post some pretty song?"

It's the definition of insanity to continually flatter someone while constantly suggesting that everything that "they're about" is a waste of time. In everything Jay says, he implies and equality with Reg which is offensive to everyone with ears. This is just so much BS.

MATT- BE SO AUTHENTIC AND GRATIOUS AS TO POST A QUOTE WHERE I SAID WHAT YOU ALLEGE.

Please cite the specific post numbers where I said what you fantasize. I complemented Reg for his playing sincerely. You need a psychiatric consultation.

For those who are too lazy to reread the thread, check No. 184, 187, 190. And that is not even going further back.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-18-2016, 05:16 PM

Oh my.

Well, of anything good came of all this, it's the tune Girl Talk--another great jazz tune with embarrassingly horrible lyrics. Seriously. Worse than Misty. Listen to Frank Sinatra Jr. do it with Steve Tyrell. Makes me uncomfortable. Probably a fun gig, though.

I'm gonna start a thread on it and why Jimmy McGriff's changes for it are waaaay more fun to blow on.

**targuit** · 06-18-2016, 05:21 PM

Reg - couple of things. First, is that recording of Girl Talk part of a studio recording or a recording of a gig? Second, please note that I said nothing of the sort of what Matt alleges I said, neither in your regard nor in general. It is apparently the product of his fevered imagination. Your playing was great.

Finally, a question about the changes to Girl Talk. Maybe it is my imagination, but I noted the changes you used and I went through those played by Kenny Burrell. Are they different or am I missing something?

Finally, I would like to complement your keyboard player as well as your percussion and bass players.

Although I had never cemented Girl Talk into my repertoire, I was familiar with the tune. But I had no Fake book info or anything on the changes. I suggested we all take a crack at this tune, and I'm working on it this weekend. One thing I noted was that as much as I like the N. Hefti song, I felt better about the form when I uncovered a couple of vocal versions. Specifically I was listening to Jack Jones' version which along with a lyric sheet just helped keep the song form straight in terms of verses and 'chorus', though this song structure is a little unusual. Printing up a lyric sheet helped a lot.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 06-18-2016, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by yaclaus

If you study your scales and arpegios you might(!) end up sounding like this

https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...s-masterclass/

Tasty s***!

Must one study arpeggios? Most most most most definitely. I love them. This discussion really really clarified it for me, thanks everyone!

Great ideas in that video. Thanks for the link.

**targuit** · 06-18-2016, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea... so guide tones, scales and arps... again, all this material is basic and shouldn't really be debated. I think Boston Joe's point about knowing yourself etc... is extremely important. But at the end of the tune.... there are no excuses for not having basic down... I'm obviously talking about being able to perform jazz. Not memorizing something and repeating in the classical tradition. Not saying there is anything wrong with that... just don't call it jazz.

So after the basics is where playing jazz becomes more fun. Guide tones can become targets, so instead of stringing together chord tones or extensions.... your stringing together tonal references which can become functional targets. That means... your opening different layers of harmonic relationships between those old guide tones.

And the scales and arps can become layered also... each note of a scale or arpeggio can have multiple relationships and references... besides the basic reference of the scale... or arpeggio.

The reason most go through all this BS during practice, even if your not the type of person etc... or you don't have the time or whatever... there are plenty of excuses.

Anyway so when you perform or practice performing, you don't get run over trying to figure out where your at or what's going on. You can also memorize melody organization... lines etc... and just basically force them over changes because... the melody is what counts etc... generally works better with non breathing musicians, etc...

Look... I've been through all the BS, I can cover, sight read anything etc.... and I still play very simple, but my simple playing really locks into grooves and reflects the music. Most don't really hear all that's can be implied by playing simple... but most do say they can feel it etc...

That was well expressed, Reg! I'm curious - was this recorded in studio or at a gig? Great tone and groove.

If this was a studio recording, were you playing off a chart? I explain why I asked. Although I knew of this song before, I never 'analyzed' it before I heard your version that I kept on repeat. But, when I would go through it myself with the aim of overdubbing piano or organ plus bass on my synth as a backing track, I kept getting 'confused' about how many repeats of the verses and chorus were and exactly where they lay without the lyrics. Finally, I listened to Jack Jones' version as well as Tony Bennett to get something to organize the lines with and printed up a copy of the lyrics. That helped me feel more comfortable in looking at the structure in relation to the lyrics that help tie the melody and structure of this song together, given it was still too new to me to feel totally comfortable at first. Not that the changes were 'hard' - it was more a thing about keeping it organized especially as I was overdubbing. I confess I didn't want to take the time to write out a full chart on Sibelius as I normally do, but just want to go record it. I think I may skip the piano or organ and bass part and just play a couple of guitar tracks.

What do you guys do to keep this stuff straight? Chart or just nodding your head?

**grahambop** · 06-19-2016, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

That was well expressed, Reg! I'm curious - was this recorded in studio or at a gig? Great tone and groove.

If this was a studio recording, were you playing off a chart? I explain why I asked. Although I knew of this song before, I never 'analyzed' it before I heard your version that I kept on repeat. But, when I would go through it myself with the aim of overdubbing piano or organ plus bass on my synth as a backing track, I kept getting 'confused' about how many repeats of the verses and chorus were and exactly where they lay without the lyrics. Finally, I listened to Jack Jones' version as well as Tony Bennett to get something to organize the lines with and printed up a copy of the lyrics. That helped me feel more comfortable in looking at the structure in relation to the lyrics that help tie the melody and structure of this song together, given it was still too new to me to feel totally comfortable at first. Not that the changes were 'hard' - it was more a thing about keeping it organized especially as I was overdubbing. I confess I didn't want to take the time to write out a full chart on Sibelius as I normally do, but just want to go record it. I think I may skip the piano or organ and bass part and just play a couple of guitar tracks.

What do you guys do to keep this stuff straight? Chart or just nodding your head?

If it's a tune I've worked out by ear, I'll just scribble the chords on a scrap of paper. I don't engrave them in Sibelius first.

**targuit** · 06-19-2016, 09:14 AM

That is exactly what I did first, Graham - just scribble down the chords initially off Reg's version. But initially I actually thought there were no lyrics, and as I was trying to overdub a 'backing' track of piano or organ plus bass, I kept flubbing the number of repeats of the verses and 'chorus'. When I finally printed up lyrics, I had a better sense of the overall structure. That is all I'm saying. Something to hang the melody on. I still have not created a Sibelius version of the song. And by the way when I do so, it provides me with a backing track of music over which to rehearse plus a written out melody as well as sheet music to use as a guide when recording. A way of keeping place in the musical structure. Is "Sibelius" a dirty word or something?

As for engraving in Sibelius, especially when I don't have the sheet music as a lead sheet, I like to create my own transcriptions. If this violates some Jazz Police rule of law, be sure to report me. Of course I suspect you like many others may have iReal software or other digital Fakebooks to access. I unfortunately do not. My only Fakebook source is my tattered 1983 version or so of a small portable Hal Leonard RealBook. No lead sheets for Girl Talk.

**yaclaus** · 06-19-2016, 09:51 AM

I don't know if it violates anything, but why not just learn it by heart?

**Jazzism** · 06-19-2016, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

But at the end of the tune.... there are no excuses for not having basic down... I'm obviously talking about being able to perform jazz. Not memorizing something and repeating in the classical tradition. Not saying there is anything wrong with that... just don't call it jazz.

So after the basics is where playing jazz becomes more fun. Guide tones can become targets, so instead of stringing together chord tones or extensions.... your stringing together tonal references which can become functional targets. That means... your opening different layers of harmonic relationships between those old guide tones.

And the scales and arps can become layered also... each note of a scale or arpeggio can have multiple relationships and references... besides the basic reference of the scale... or arpeggio.

The reason most go through all this BS during practice, even if your not the type of person etc... or you don't have the time or whatever... there are plenty of excuses.

Anyway so when you perform or practice performing, you don't get run over trying to figure out where your at or what's going on. You can also memorize melody organization... lines etc... and just basically force them over changes because... the melody is what counts etc... generally works better with non breathing musicians, etc...

Look... I've been through all the BS, I can cover, sight read anything etc.... and I still play very simple, but my simple playing really locks into grooves and reflects the music. Most don't really hear all that's can be implied by playing simple... but most do say they can feel it etc...

This important message is just not getting through to some. It's why I said on another thread that performance can also shape and inform practice.Ultimately what your training yourself to do is to be able to cope in situations in which you might be unfamiliar, to a greater or lesser degree. Case in point, two weeks ago I get called to do a duo gig with this singer at an exclusive rooftop venue/ bar I've never worked with this guy before, but I see he's well organized with his own book of charts. He also plays flute. He starts calling tunes, one of them is, ironically "girl talk" which I've never played before. Other tunes were in different keys than I'm used to. Could I tell him, uh wait, I'll just shed these and write charts in Sibelius over the wkend, and then we can play them next week? Now, I'm not creating art, I wish I could play as well as the great chord melody masters, but I work a lot on my time feel, I can comp in a variety of styles and vary the texture of my comping, take chord solos provide intros and endings. It was good enough, people liked it, I got payed, the singer has since offered me the role of accompanist in a weekly vocal wkshop he runs. Same thing happens there. Singers come in with charts I've never seen before that I need to interpret, making decisions and solving musical problems in real time. It also allows me to reflect on what I could do better, which helps guide my subsequent practice time. Not multitracking and memorizing Sibelius charts. In short, as Reg points out, to cut the demands of the gig, to "cover" The former seems more what Jazz is about, the latter while involving elements of jazz is not. Which is OK for a hobbyist bedroom musician. But what I'm seeing here, of working pros constantly being spoken down to while efforts to establish their own credibility continue to be mired down with constant misdirection, evasion, excuses and excessive hyperbole, well, this strikes me as coming from someone that does not have a firm grasp of the realities of their musical situation!

**Reg** · 06-19-2016, 10:50 AM

Here's a version of GT.... obviously there are many and most of the maj7 chords become dominants etc...
Jay... all live and the keyboard was kickin bass, we were a trio... and of course the star... vocalist

intro...
8 x 8 10 10 10 / x x 8 9 9 11 //
Tune
Fmaj ..................B13
/ x 8 7 9 (10) , 7 x 7 8 (10) x /

Bbmaj7 .......................................G-7 .................C7
/ X 8 8 7 (10) x , 6 x 7 (7) 6 x , 3 3 3 3 (6) x , x 3 2 3 3 (3) /

A-7 ................ D-7 ..........or......D7#9
/ 5 x 5 5 5 5 , x 5 x 5 6 5 or ( x 0 4 5 6 5 )

G-7 ..................A-7 ................Bbmaj 6/9 ......C9
/ 5 5 5 5 5 (6) , 5 x 5 5 5 (5) , 6 x 5 5 (6) x , 8 x 8 (7) x x

F-7 .................... Bb7
/ x 8 6 8 (9) x , 6 x 6 7 (9) x /

Db9 ........................................C7
/ x 4 3 4 4 (4) , x 2 3 3 (2) x , 3 3 3 3 (6) x , x 3 2 3 3 (3) /

Fmaj7 ...............Bbmaj7
x8 7 9 (10) x , x 8 8 7 (10) x ,

A-7 .....................Eb9 ..............A-7 .................Db7
/ 5 5 5 5 5 (8) , x 6 5 6 6 (6) , 5 x 5 5 5 (5) , x 3 4 4 (3) x /

G-7 .....................A-7 ....................Bbmaj7 .............Bdim or E7b9
/ 3 3 3 3 3 3 lick, 5 x 5 5 5 x lick , 6 x 7 7 6 x lick , 7 x 6 7 6 lick /

A-7 ..................D7 (D7#9) .....G-7 ................C7
/ 5 5 5 5 (8) , x 5 4 5 5 (5) , 3 3 3 3 (6) x , x 3 3 3(3) x /

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 06-19-2016, 10:50 AM

I have learned a lot from this forum but...Gosh this thread makes me depressed. I can hardly play guitar yet I practiced scales and arpeggios as a teenager 40 years ago and still can't play 1/8th as well as any of you guys arguing in this thread about it.

I have always loved jazz guitar even back when I was young but my first love was american blues including the old acoustic Piedmont blues masters like Blind Blake, Brownie McGhee or Blind Boy Fuller. I would love to be able to just blow over jazz changes like some of you guys can do. My single note solo style is all based upon the Chicago electric blues guys like Otis Rush, Freddie King, Albert & BB King, Buddy Guy, Magic Sam. At a young age I was introduced to Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian by an uncle and that blew my mind. That was wayyy out of my league (at age 13). I wish I had followed that path instead of straight ahead blues.

The only "jazzy" thing I can do is comp the chords to "All Of Me", "Autumn Leaves" "Fly Me To The Moon" or "Summertime" while I sing them badly. You guys should quit this pissing contest and be happy you all can play as well as you can.

**Reg** · 06-19-2016, 10:55 AM

Yea... thanks Jazzism It's pretty much the norm... be able to perform live, all the practice of basic musicianship helps.

It really doesn't take that much time to get the basics together.... but you do need to know what they are.

**targuit** · 06-19-2016, 11:38 AM

Reg - thanks for taking the time to write out the changes to Girl Talk and the tab for those who need it, though all that was not really necessary. What I was asking you was whether the recording was in studio or at the gig and whether you or the other musicians used charts or just eye contact.

What is depressing to me is how many people resort to erecting straw men so they knock them down and put other individuals down at the same time. The irony is not lost or should not be lost on those with the IQ and perception to understand English. Lawson. Perhaps we should use hieroglyphics to communicate. What do you think?

Intolerance of other individuals opinions is rampant here as is a form of abject fawning as a way of ingratiating some posters into the circle around the perceived 'alpha' individuals. Visible on any grade school playing field and in any classroom. Pity that grownups should feel a need to resort to the same behavior. Where is a psychologist when you need one?

Jazzim wrote "...two weeks ago I get called to do a duo gig with this singer at an exclusive rooftop venue/ bar I've never worked with this guy before, but I see he's well organized with his own book of charts. He also plays flute. He starts calling tunes, one of them is, ironically "girl talk" which I've never played before. Other tunes were in different keys than I'm used to. Could I tell him, uh wait, I'll just shed these and write charts in Sibelius over the wkend, and then we can play them next week? Now, I'm not creating art, I wish I could play as well as the great chord melody masters, but I work a lot on my time feel, I can comp in a variety of styles and vary the texture of my comping, take chord solos provide intros and endings. It was good enough, people liked it, I got payed..."

I don't think anyone suggested a need to stop a gig to go write out Sibelius charts, assuming that some commenting here actually know how to do that well. In effect, Jazzism, I like your story. But answer me this - given that your singer has his own charts (apparently a sign of "jazz weakness" by your recounting), did you use his charts or did you just wing it? Did you already know the tune well? Or did you read the chart? Usually if one is even slightly familiar, reading off a chart is more than enough to get by.

Apart from the fact that some of us are at the point that we need reading glasses.

In any case, since you were apparently taking a dig at me, let me assure you that I simply had never analyzed at all the tune Girl Talk. I have a significantly large library of my Sibelius transcriptions which I write out for two simple reasons - I like to do it and I then have midi files over which I can rehearse as well as the option to transpose and print out sheet music for recording or other purposes. Needless to say, once I get sufficiently familiar with the songs in question, I don't depend on the charts. In the case of this tune I actually have not yet created a chart - I copy the lyrics and write in the chords "C9" for example above the lyrics, which I use to both sing as well as to help organize the song structure, especially if verses and choruses are repeated several times as in Reg's instrumental recording. So do you think the singer that hired you is the weaker for having charts for his musicians? I find that an odd thought.

But I am not aware of anyone 'speaking down to working pros' - unless merely expressing a different opinion is construed as such. But feel free to quote any passages that you find offensive.