On the importance of basic scales and arpeggios

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 08:11 PM

Matt - Playing out of chord shapes? Scales? Are they "different"?

Don't you ever just play a solo on guitar as if you were scatting vocally? Don't you play at least to some degree 'what you hear'?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-15-2016, 08:14 PM

I'm really not interested in yet another dick measuring contest. I just think it'd be nice to hear you blow on something a little more spontaneously, as opposed to a multi tracked tune with vocals.

I'd be less inclined to ask at all if your posts didn't consistently go against common knowledge/jazz teaching.

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'm really not interested in yet another dick measuring contest. I just think it'd be nice to hear you blow on something a little more spontaneously, as opposed to a multi tracked tune with vocals.

I'd be less inclined to ask at all if your posts didn't consistently go against common knowledge/jazz teaching.

Then why do you persist in pulling your pants down in public and trying to wave it around like a lasso?

Need I point out that you are the one who raised the issue? Yet again.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-15-2016, 08:33 PM

I raised the issue of hearing you play, not making a group contest of it.

Seriously, you talk a lot about what you do, it'd be nice to have a video where you maybe illustrate some points, or even just blow spontaneously, would do a lot more to make a point than a recording you spent a week on with a slideshow video...

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 08:39 PM

Why not?

All the things you are

Autumn Leaves

But Beautiful

Corcovado

Georgia ..... Stardust.

Thou dost protest too much, Jeff.

There seems to be a group think theme that I don't play solos. Or the other one, that I "step all over the vocals" with my second guitar tracks. Which is it tonight?

If the theme of the post is "making solos out of chord shapes - yes or no", and with your extreme and much admired facility with recording off cell phones and video recorders and the like, why should you not do what you request of me?

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 08:45 PM

Anyway, it was just a thought. If you want to illustrate one's thesis that solos derive from chords or from divine inspiration, perhaps it would be a way to hear Graham, Matt, you, and of course Mark demonstrate how it's done.

It so happens that this is one of those rare nights when I am the only one home. Ideal situation for spontaneous recording. Of course, this is a proposal, not a dare. And I trust you and I would both keep our pants on. (rimshot)

I hope you know I'm joking to a degree. But quite seriously, much of my practice lately revolves around approaching a tune sitting in front of CNBC (financial channel for none citizens of this decaying Republic) and watching Janet Yellin while just improvising the song with my "subconscious" mind at the wheel.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-15-2016, 08:56 PM

Well, I never suggested you don't play solos. I wouldn't mind hearing one that wasn't competing with a vocal.

We were talking Charlie Christian here, when you brought up your response to plaYing out of chord shapes. How about Seven come eleven or Rose Room or something like that?

I'll post a video if you really want, but I'll remind you I've posted about a hundred videos here over the years, and I'm not the one saying that a generally agreed upon jazz approach is "wrong." Doubt I'll get to it tonight though.

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 08:58 PM

To be honest, Jeff, I don't know those tunes. I could learn. Rose Room?

Ok. I'm listening to it now on YTube. Benny Goodman orchestra with Charlie Christian. Pretty straight ahead bluesy tune in Ab. I'm playing along to Christian's solo which is great. I also played through the sax and vibes solos.

So this is a nice blues tune. Not a song I was familiar with. Thanks.

" and I'm not the one saying that a generally agreed upon jazz approach is "wrong." Jeff.

Did I say that? Straw man?

**FatPick** · 06-15-2016, 09:07 PM

I just stumbled onto this a few days ago, it's a segment from a video on Morten Faerestrand's YouTube channel.

Basically he says (as I've heard a number of times before elsewhere: Jon Herrington, Chick Corea, Dweezil Zappa to name a few) you can't just hammer on scales and arps, etc. and expect your guitar-voice to magically emerge at some point. You need to play tunes, licks, etc. and by absorbing them, you will eventually regurgitate them in some mutated form as your own.

But that doesn't mean learning scales, arps, theory, etc. is not required too. Morten's own online courses start with just these pieces before moving on to more "musical" topics.

Start at 6:23 since the embedded video is ignoring that piece of the URL...

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 09:09 PM

Well, in any case, I could learn Rose Room or improvise a blues solo myself in the same key if you like. As an illustration of how you can create something over the chord changes. In effect, unless one is playing atonic music, a solo has to be in the harmonic context. So suggesting that an improvised solo grows out of chord changes is simply suggesting that a melody stands on its own in reference to its harmonic context.

Akin to saying the sun rises in the East. Btw, I dig playing the blues. We could improvise over the chord changes to Rose Room......that would be fine for me. Graham, Matt, Mark, and Reg could play, too.

Btw, on my third run through this Rose Room I wrote out the changes which repeat in the key of Ab. Nice melody and bluesy tune. And Christian is ...wonderful.

A solo track - one take - no backing - just guitar ....at fifty paces... no looking back as your walking away.....

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 09:33 PM

Fat Pick - I like Morten, but I especially like it when he took off at the end of his solo. And I think he is correct about his practice approach, though I like especially where he says that in the end, the phrases you create will "just sound like you".

**monk** · 06-15-2016, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Btw, I think it is extremely presumptuous to assume how Charlie Christian created his solos. First I have never seen an interview on this issue with Christian. Secondly, even if he did create his solos out of 'chord shapes', so what? Chords are created according to musical intervals. All music is created according to musical intervals. So what does that say?

There is no presumption about how Charlie Christian played his solos.

Christian had numerous contemporary "disciples" who watched him play, jammed with him, got tips from him. The Goodman Band toured all over the country and guitarists flocked to see Christian play. Barney Kessel, Joe Negri, Jimmy Raney, Mary Osborne, Les Paul to name a few. Those people passed it on to their students.

Add to that the fact that THIS was how guitarists played single note in those days. George Barnes wrote a book about it in 1941, Joe Negri wrote one later in his career. You can also include in this group the Christian-influenced guitarists who didn't move into bebop but chose to play in the jump blues and R&B groups that formed after the dissolution of the big bands. Carl Hogan, Bill Jennings, Billy Butler, Tiny Grimes and others who carried the style intact into the 1960s.

Christian did not pursue his craft behind closed doors. Plenty of players saw him, copied him and passed the information along to friends and students.

**lawson-stone** · 06-15-2016, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Why not?

All the things you are

Autumn Leaves

But Beautiful

Corcovado

Georgia ..... Stardust.

Thou dost protest too much, Jeff.

There seems to be a group think theme that I don't play solos. Or the other one, that I "step all over the vocals" with my second guitar tracks. Which is it tonight?

If the theme of the post is "making solos out of chord shapes - yes or no", and with your extreme and much admired facility with recording off cell phones and video recorders and the like, why should you not do what you request of me?

I would just point out that Mr. B. and yaclaus and a couple others here have numerous clips and postings of their playing. Mr. B. is a fine improviser with a lot of creativity and someone I have listened to a lot and would love to emulate if only I could. Yaclaus is also an accomplished player with the material out there to be heard. He has a fine sense of time and a good feel on top of solid technique.

You keep challenging people to do stuff that they've already done, and they keep waiting for you to do it. Pick a standard. Don't sing or multitrack. Put on a backing track, and improvise over it in the moment. Record it live. Post it. Then do that maybe 20 other times, and you'll be about where Mr. B. and some others are here.

I appreciate some of the points you make, but I think you are to ideological. Music might be "aural" but "playing the guitar" is not exclusively aural. It is also a hand-eye coordination exercise and the fingerboard gives itself to a visual analysis to assist the mind in mapping sounds to physical or kinesthetic activity. So the visual mapping is legitimate. Chord shapes as bases to tag while venturing to other related tones is a time-honored and very legitimate model for learning to improvise. Multitudes of people have become fine players through this approach.

That's all I have to say on this.

**lawson-stone** · 06-15-2016, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Well, in any case, I could learn Rose Room or improvise a blues solo myself in the same key if you like. As an illustration of how you can create something over the chord changes. In effect, unless one is playing atonic music, a solo has to be in the harmonic context. So suggesting that an improvised solo grows out of chord changes is simply suggesting that a melody stands on its own in reference to its harmonic context.

Akin to saying the sun rises in the East. Btw, I dig playing the blues. We could improvise over the chord changes to Rose Room......that would be fine for me. Graham, Matt, Mark, and Reg could play, too.

Btw, on my third run through this Rose Room I wrote out the changes which repeat in the key of Ab. Nice melody and bluesy tune. And Christian is ...wonderful.

A solo track - one take - no backing - just guitar ....at fifty paces... no looking back as your walking away.....

Jay

"Rose Room" is emphatically not a blues. It is a cycle tune. It was a tune so tricky that Goodman threw it at Charlie Christian for his "test" to see if the kid could really play. Word is, CC played the heck out of the tune and more or less exploded Goodman's mind who signed him on the spot.

Double check. RR is no blues.

**KirkP** · 06-15-2016, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

"Rose Room" is emphatically not a blues. It is a cycle tune. It was a tune so tricky that Goodman threw it at Charlie Christian for his "test" to see if the kid could really play. Word is, CC played the heck out of the tune and more or less exploded Goodman's mind who signed him on the spot. ...

Duke Ellington borrowed the changes from Rose Room for In a Mellow Tone.

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Jay

"Rose Room" is emphatically not a blues. It is a cycle tune. It was a tune so tricky that Goodman threw it at Charlie Christian for his "test" to see if the kid could really play. Word is, CC played the heck out of the tune and more or less exploded Goodman's mind who signed him on the spot.

Double check. RR is no blues.

A foxtrot originally. Which some people say was related later to songs like Rock Around The Clock! Tricky? Would you like the chord changes? I agree that Christian has that "X" factor. Never said differently.

Ab7 - Bb7 - Eb7 - Ab7
Eb-7 - Ab7 - Dbmaj7 - Db-7 - Abmaj7 - F7
Bb7 - Eb7 //
Bb-7 -Eb7 - Ab7 -Eb-7 - Ab7 - Bb7 - Db-7 - F7.....

Lawson, one might politely point out that there was a racism thing happening in 1937. Benny Goodman helped to integrate music to his eternal credit. So the 'blues' was gentrified a bit. But Christian was a black man in a white man's world. I doubt he could stay at the same hotels as Goodman back then. Especially in the South. Just a wild guess. Perhaps it is not a blues in the strict sense, but Christian sure sounds a bit bluesy to me.

Christian had that spark of genius, as did Goodman and Hampton on vibes. By the way, I wrote early something about the 'sax' player - should have said 'clarinet'.

**targuit** · 06-15-2016, 10:49 PM

Maybe it's a cha-cha...

So you ready to record your (blues) improvisation over the changes, now that you have them?

**KirkP** · 06-15-2016, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

If that ain't based in the blues, then please tell me what is. Tricky? Would you like the chord changes? ...
Ab7 - Bb7 - Eb7 - Ab7
Eb-7 - Ab7 - Dbmaj7 - Db-7 - Abmaj7 - F7
Bb7 - Eb7 //
Bb-7 -Eb7 Ab7 -Eb-7 - Ab7 Bb7 Db-7 - F7.....
...

Hope you don't mind me stepping in.
The first chord of the A section (after the pickup) is II7, which is Bb7 for this key. The changes, form, and melody aren't based on the blues. It's just a dance tune. Here's a 1918 recording (with an introduction):

CC was influenced by blues (as were many others in his day) so I might agree his playing is "bluesy", but that doesn't make this tune a blues. However, the tune has a lot of dominant chords and/or opportunities to add them, which invites blues-influenced solo lines. In that sense I might grant you that it can be a "bluesy" tune.
We're veering way off topic though. Maybe time for a new thread?

**grahambop** · 06-16-2016, 03:36 AM

I'm not going to make any more videos etc. as I'm too busy and I've done plenty already. I tend to play out of chord forms quite a lot as I just find that the easiest way to visualise structures on the fretboard. I believe Joe Pass said he did too.

**Jonah** · 06-16-2016, 03:52 AM

Matt - Playing out of chord shapes? Scales? Are they "different"?

The way we call things is the way we see them.... (or even what they are for us)

If we call this building a church we approach it one way...
If we call it a moll... it will be absolutely different way...

But are the buildings 'different'? From point of view of construction.... not.

**targuit** · 06-16-2016, 04:25 AM

I was joking about the song being a cha-cha only to learn the original was a foxtrot! That is interesting though the two versions don't sound much akin to the other. So perhaps one could say that the changes and the interpretation of the Goodman version sounds more bluesy than the original foxtrot.

As for the complexity of the 'cycle changes', they are rather simple to me. Lots of sevenths - straight and major sevenths with that 4/4 driving rhythm time. I will have listen to In A Mellow Tone.

And Lawson, perhaps you would like to check out the recent Rory Hoffman thread on the forum - yet another blind player who plays the guitar on his lap but in a unique style. I'm sure he would have something to say about his use of visualization of the fret board.

In relation to Matt's questions:

Do you think Brecker/Bird ever worked out basic scales and arps? - Does the sun rise in the East?

If so, why do you think that they did? - 'Cause that is how you relate melody to harmony.

Is the point of practice only to play things which are complete melodic ideas? - No. But it does help to have a concept of phrasing.

If so, why not complete phrases, choruses, entire pieces? - I think that would be called "playing a song".

What differentiates practice from "performing by yourself"? - No audience?

Again, how do you think Brecker/Bird's practice was different from their performance. - They got paid to perform.

Meanwhile I will continue to try to foxtrot over the Goodman version. Actually, apart from its historical interest in terms of Charlie Christian and his playing, I think the song is old fashioned and dull. I spent some time messing with this tune and can't say that it is very interesting to me anyway. Curious song choice coming from Jeff.

**Vladan** · 06-16-2016, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Yeah, that's part of the "punk rock damage" I was talking about earlier.

Yes, Lawson-Stone is one typical example of a Punk Rocker. Proto.

In other words, your 'punk rock" reference is completely wrong, IMO. For example, many punk musicians I know and have played with they'd finished at least 6 grades of elementary music school (as per schooling system over here), meaning they can read pretty well and play their main instruments too. Be it the violin, or piano, or ...

Just makes no sense to blame it on punk rock when you know much before punk rock ever emerged pop/folk/rock (god forbid Jazz) - musicians (guitar players) were as they are. They could play some tunes good enough to make girls smile and then some.

**christianm77** · 06-16-2016, 06:24 AM

Isn't Rose Room

Bb7 Eb7 Ab Ab7 Db Dbm etc?

I never understood why the tune was held to be challenging myself. Perhaps because it starts on II7?

Tea for Two - according to legend one of the two tunes that CC learned aside from blues (!) has more difficult changes I would say.

Anyway, here's my version of the tune. Could use clarinet too, but hey, budget...

I did learn the solo a while ago. Contains some very nice examples of IVm on V7 ;-)

**targuit** · 06-16-2016, 06:27 AM

Nice recording and playing, Christian! I like the vibes player, too.

Still not a great fan of this song, but you do an excellent job. How's your foxtrot?

**christianm77** · 06-16-2016, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Nice recording and playing, Christian! I like the vibes player, too.

Still not a great fan of this song, but you do an excellent job. How's your foxtrot?

Thanks! Nat is a brilliant bebop improvisor; one of the top guys in the UK on any instrument in that language, IMO. He learned by copying Bird from the record.