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Beyond normal jazz guitar politics, I am still interested in answers to these original questions. I certainly think they're more interesting than whether or not guitarists are dumb. At the very least, I think they are worthy of discussion , as this is always talked about on the forum. thanks.
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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06-14-2016 05:55 PM
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IMHO, this has little to do with the instruments or the players. The norm for folks learning to play trumpet (for example) is some kind of formal education in school and the lucky ones get lessons outside that. This is close to non-existent for guitar players. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I know many guys who picked up a guitar and tried to learn, maybe bought a book or two, or even took some lessons from the teenager at the music store who learned the same way. There must be some but I don't know anybody who did this with a wind instrument. Keyboards - more of a mixed bag.
IMHO.
dave
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I don't know. Does anybody know what Bird worked out? Brecker's practice routine is probably known Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
*I* have two reasons for practicing: Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
1. to be able to play music with my musician friends, at the highest level we can
2. As meditative time at the end of the day to unwind/let go all the aggravations of the day.
Performing by myself is part of practice: I find that typically if I can learn a piece of music well enough so that
it can stand on it's own without the rest of my bandmates, then when I do play it with others it is much easier.
Again I don't know, but I assume that in practice they worked out ideas that they felt would be useful in their performances. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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We know from the interview with Paul Desmond that Charlie Parker worked in the Klose method book for saxophone. (Desmond recognized a line from that book in a solo on a Parker recording.) Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Earl Hines---who had Diz and Bird in his band at the same time--said they brought their method books to gigs and went over them during breaks, trying to figure out where a certain line from the books might fit into the tunes for the next set.
So my answer to your question would be, "Yes, I think Bird did." (I don't know about Brecker.) That is, I think he played them. I don't know that he "worked them out." (I don't know anything about fingering a saxophone or about saxophone method books.)
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Not looking for advice, Mark. I've read music since grade school and how to play scales since I was twelve. Not that hard. The "dumber than rocks" quip was in jest. And nothing I said was directed to you, Matt, Lawson or anyone else in particular.
From Matt's original post:On the importance of basic scales and arps
- "....I generally don't trust people on the internet who say that you don't need any scales or other rudiments of music/technique, when most students of other instruments already know them from childhood. That kind of advice seems about as worthless as the opposite sentinment: saying that running scales and arps is the "answer to everything". By the way, I never see anyone actually saying that. It's the legend of internet quip-makers."
I'm one of those other people. Sorry to intrude on your inner circle. I'll have to go find one my imaginary friends while you all pretend to play your imaginary....well.. you know.Last edited by targuit; 06-15-2016 at 02:11 AM.
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Thanks for the info. Seriously thinking about getting a copy of the Klose book, just to see. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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With all respect guys... I think you overemphasize it...
to me there's nothing to discuss... you do not discuss learning ABC when you start a new language... you just learn it as soon as possible and go on to more complex and interesting topics... same thing here.
As per horns/guitars practice...
guitar is popular harmonic instrument, widely used to comp songs... you can play guitar all your life without ever playing a single scale... and still you do play guitar.
Horns are mostly pro instruments... how else actually can they practice abstractly without playing any scales?
They cannot strum chords..
Guitar is very versatile instrument .. much more versatile than any horn...
so we should just distinguish... different 'guitars'..
In playing jazz solos - guitar practice routine will not be much different from horn... but at the same time guitarist has lots of other things to do and practice
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That's an interesting point. Originally Posted by Jonah
A lot of the old cats played their solos out of the chords really - Charlie Christian being the classic example.
It's not a bad way to play at all (far from it) - and it's a very guitaristic way to do it.
Now I'm following the Barry Harris white rabbit it's all scales to death, but I see this as a non-guitaristic way to play, really. But then bop is non-guitaristic music.
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Actually to me taditional jazz-guitar is ... not a guitar))))
I played different guitars in different styles (classical, folk, early guitars etc) - not that I am an expert but I was really interested int it...
And more or less - considering all the differences - I still see many things in common considering how these styles use the possibilities of guitar... so I think I could say that they are all guitars. Thеy belong to one family - not only by specific feminine body shape)))
But jazz guitar is so different... in almost every aspect of playing (and even in construction) that I would really put it aside
Note:
I speak about traditional jazz guitar.
today it's days of total fusion... so you can find anything anywhere in any disguise
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I know you're not looking for advice here but you need to take some: post on the actual topic, not the one you wish to introduce and treat as if it were the OP. (And, worse, dismiss in a condescending tone.) I didn't take what you said to be directed at me or Matt. My gripe is not that it was insulting but that it was off-topic. Originally Posted by targuit
The two examples in the OP---Bird and Brecker---are horn players. Not guitar players. The questions in the OP are about how THEY learned, and more broadly, how those who take up the horn are taught music.
Matt had training on the sax as a kid. (School band, I think.) That was his jumping off point. When you replied with how tired you are with this credo that guitarists are dumb, it was clear you either did not read the OP or you ignored it.
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Sure. I hear you. Originally Posted by Jonah
It's the tradition of plectrum guitar if you go back far enough. I don't know too much about the deep history, but I can almost see it as budding off from the Mandolin.... An archtop is a big mandolin in guitar tuning, no? :-)
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I'm curious as to whether keyboardists are generally considered to have a pretty different approach, as harmonic instrumentalists, as well. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Matt - What exactly are you asking here? Whether keyboard players practice scales? How they hone their improvisational abilities?
Mark has suggested that I did not read your original post. But in fact I certainly did, yet I find it to be rather unfocused. Which is why I am asking you to restate what you are trying to elucidate in simple direct phrases.
I assumed you were suggesting that other instrumentalists begin their study of their instrument by learning to read notation and practicing their major and minor diatonic scales. I think the answer to that is clearly "yes" obviously. They also learn to master a series of exercises and etudes in an increasing degree of difficulty as they progress.
Is there another avenue to becoming a master of your instrument? If there is, I am not aware of the nature of the transformation. That said, even assiduous daily practice of scales does not guarantee that one will progress to the level of a Coltrane, Parker, Tyner, or Joe Pass. That something extra probably derives from the innate talent of the individual musician. There are only so many angels on the head of a pin.
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I think he was simply asking if keyboardists had any sort of comparable system to where CC would play out of guitaristic chord shapes...
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Joe - All this discussion of "playing out of chord shapes" is very vague and somewhat misguided in my opinion. In the end music comes down to intervals in relation to a tonic generally, assuming we are not dealing with serialism or atonic music. Many educators would suggest that the best way to think about melody and harmony is in terms of intervals. Twelve tones. Some of the intervals such as the third and seventh define the chords. Other intervals such as ninths, sixths, elevenths, thirteenths... define extensions and harmonic "colors".
Much of the attention on these threads revolves around "what scale to play over this chord" or things of that nature. In my daily practice I virtually NEVER think about that. I try to express and realize what I hear in my mind. So what notes are those? The melody and the harmony including the bass. All by ear. Which is not to say that I don't know theory. I do. But when I play - whether on piano or guitar or vocal - I am trying to reproduce the notes that sound right. That is it. Nothing more complex nor more simple than that.
My practice daily revolves around songs - concrete songs. Not abstractions. I hear it in my mind and try to play it on guitar or piano. That is it. If someone asks for analysis, no problem. But does your audience care to hear your analysis or the song itself well rendered? I think the answer is obvious. Please correct me if I am wrong with this premise.
Btw, I think it is extremely presumptuous to assume how Charlie Christian created his solos. First I have never seen an interview on this issue with Christian. Secondly, even if he did create his solos out of 'chord shapes', so what? Chords are created according to musical intervals. All music is created according to musical intervals. So what does that say?Last edited by targuit; 06-15-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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I'm a beginner jazzplayer even though Ive played guitar for a very long time. I have been a lazy learner as well and wasted a lot of time searching for short cuts. And there´s alot of people on the net offering short cuts. Seems to me that a lot of guitar players, more than other instruments, search for short cuts. Maybe it´s because the guitar is very abstract when it comes to learning the fretboard. And therefore scare people from even starting to try.
"Sent skall syndaren vakna"-swedish saying. In english, something like: "late will the sinner wake up"
I am now going back to basics learning my major scales. And I mean learning them, not just runing them up and down. It is something that I should have done a long time ago and I could have known all my scales and all the notes on the fretboard by now. It is tiresome work but this would have been the biggest short cut of all if I just would have done it. And its not just about organizing the fretboard. Its also about understanding the melodies and the music that Im trying to play.
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Originally Posted by targuit
It says chords are a damn nice way to visualize those intervals.
Seriously, Jay, you're pretty against the grain with all this. How about a video/recording of your approach. Just improvising a solo. I don't think we've ever heard you do that.
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So many words. Originally Posted by targuit
Who cares? You don't have to be right in music. It's not the fecking humanities.
You just have to make music.
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When I hear people discuss "playing out of chord shapes" I understand them to be talking about fretboard visualization. They might see a particular scale and/or arpeggio as superimposed over a familiar chord shape. It is a time-honored and effective way to navigate the guitar. It's true those notes could be written down, and would just be, say, an arpeggio that could be played in all kinds of different fingerings. But when the person in question is playing, they are seeing the chord shape as an organizing principle. Originally Posted by targuit
If you have transcribed some Charlie Christian (you have, right, since you're making this point?) you'll probably see that certain lines lie particularly well if they are played based on a chord shape. It would be possible to playing with other fingerings, but it would be much harder. Also, careful listening provides clues (slurs, timbre, hammer-ons, etc) about where a lines was played. Originally Posted by targuit
We cannot know with metaphysical certitude what Christian thought when he played, but we can be pretty certain about how it was played. That how maps very well onto "playing out of chord shapes."Last edited by dingusmingus; 06-15-2016 at 05:18 PM. Reason: typos
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Dingusmingus, exactly.
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I think talking about playing "out of chord shapes " is a pretty clear way of discussing it. There's a distinction on guitar, which is different from piano, mainly that arpeggios and chord shapes aren't just one in the same. On a piano , most simple arpeggios can also be easily played as a chord voicing.
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Actually I think he did a short solo in the middle of his 'Shadow of your smile' video. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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intervals are usually organized
I've recently found myself playing lots of shapes just thinking "hmm, they seem to come out like a basic d chord automatically" when you get familiar with them.
Btw: Thanks for the hint Grahambop, I actually think it's a nice solo, however one can hear that it is probably not made up of shapes, but more scales going up and down.
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Yaclaus -
I don't know if you were referring to my solo on The Shadow of Your Smile or someone else's solo. But in effect every note I record (not always the best, mind you) is 'improvised'. I virtually never play a "preconceived" solo. It happens in the moment and I never "comp" in the sense of construct a solo digitally out of several takes. What you hear is what I improvised in the moment I record the take. But I can assure it is not a mishmash of scales. It is what I feel and hear at the moment.
Once in a while I make significant flubs or mistakes, of course. In that particular solo near the end I got "distracted" by someone entering the recording space and for a split second I got "lost" in terms of the flow of where I was in the solo. However, one interesting thing is that sometimes the "recovery" phase is innovative to a degree. I liken it to an acrobat walking across the wire suspended high over the ground losing his balance.
The argument that a solo 'comes out of the chords' is specious and circuitous to a degree. This is not meant to deride anyone. Simply put, a chord is constructed in thirds. Major and minor. Plus extensions. So logically if you play over a specific chord progression over four or more measures, for example, at least some of the "target" notes have to be "chord notes" plus chromatic approach or encircle notes. There are only twelve tones in the Western scale and if your basic chord entails at least three, four, or five notes by definition that leaves mostly the tones that don't sound 'right' unless they lead to resolution. Your flat or sharp fifths and ninths, for example.
Actually my feeling about Charlie Christian is that he had a rather "unique" ability to create innovative lines out of chords. Perhaps rooted in his rhythmic conception. I find his solos remarkably unique in some way. That said, he still uses twelve tones and puts his pants on one leg at a time just like most of us.
Last edited by targuit; 06-15-2016 at 07:53 PM.
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Dingusmingus - ".....When I hear people discuss "playing out of chord shapes" I understand them to be talking about fretboard visualization. They might see a particular scale and/or arpeggio as superimposed over a familiar chord shape. It is a time-honored and effective way to navigate the guitar. It's true those notes could be written down, and would just be, say, an arpeggio that could be played in all kinds of different fingerings. But when the person in question is playing, they are seeing the chord shape as an organizing principle."
I acknowledge your affection for thinking in regards to the fret board visually. It happens to be one of my pet peeves, so to speak, because music is aural. This my thing, so not disparaging of others. I just don't like to approach playing as visual beyond the ability to read a chart in notation. I would cite the example of so many blind musicians like Ray Charles or a blind friend of mine in college who knocked me out playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue on the university chapel pipe organs so magnificently it brought me to tears. He was practicing in the empty chapel and did not even know that someone was there. Blind since birth but his "vision" was well beyond most of ours.
Jeff - "It says chords are a damn nice way to visualize those intervals.
Seriously, Jay, you're pretty against the grain with all this. How about a video/recording of your approach. Just improvising a solo. I don't think we've ever heard you do that."
In that case, Jeff, I would suggest that you listen. I do it all the time. Why don't you transcribe my solo from Shadow Of Your Smile and record yourself playing it? It is improvised. Just as is every note on that recording.
Without taking the bait yet once again, I would simply suggest that we make a list of six standards or so and suggest that we each pick one or two from the list and record them as solo takes with the goal of creating on the spot like on the bandstand. Hopefully, songs by the greats like Hoagy Carmichael, Jerome Kern, Harold Arlen, Jobim. I would be happy to participate with you, Graham, and anyone else. Especially now that I've figured out how to use Windows damned Movie Maker to post on YouTube.
Last edited by targuit; 06-15-2016 at 08:20 PM.
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