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06-04-2016 11:11 AM
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Don't trust advice from other people, especially from strangers you don't trust telling you not to trust strange things that are strange to you.
And you can trust me on this...as a stranger.
David
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Good advice, always dig down, do a lot of digging on your own, do you own exploration that is the real teacher. That's the problem with the internet and especially now with smart device people get quick answers, but they still don't know anything. The process of discovering the answer is the teacher not the final answer.
As to the Real Book people have been discussing the changes since the book came out and that video hints at the answer. There wasn't one correct set of Jazz changes and sometime a melody note too. Read about the early Jazz player and you hear the talk about playing a tune, but having to know different sets of changes according to who they were playing with, that's why ears are so important in Jazz. Not only did people use different changes, like he said in the video even Monk would play it different from night to night. Then you get with some advanced Jazzer and they are reharmonizing on the bandstand an part of the gig is being about to follow. Luckily you usually know that's the type of person or gig before hand.
So the take away on this is dig in and dig deep the process of finding an answer you'll learn multiple lessons. Second take away Jazz is all about ears. Keep that in mind when practicing when working that new scale listen as much as you focus on where to put your fingers. You should be learning multiple things from everything single you practice.
Now I really need some coffee.
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Burn your Real Books! Beginners shouldn't have any help. It should be like we hadda do, walk uphill 2 miles to lessons...both ways.
OP, use common sense and ears. A Real Book is imperfect, but it's a resource. I liken it to that friend we all have that knows a ton of shit but sometimes screws up a few details.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yeah he's not really knocking the real book. He's basically saying what you said. Use the excellent resource as a guide but not a book of facts. Which leads me to a question. Why hasn't someone just picked Specific versions of jazz standards in the Same exact key it was recorded in and the same exact performances notated to match the actual recording all the way through? And then it's up to you to transpose it to other keys still. A book that is actually based on particular performances and not some "???" sort of thing.
Base the damn book on specific tracks. Then people aren't lost as far as where to go to match it up. Yeah it's great to have it open but why not at least take the effort to release a book that lines up with specific tracks.
Reminds me of all those fake books they release and every song is in the wrong key. Why not just throw it in the correct keys? You can STILL practice it in all the other keys..
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That's a frustratingly slow paced video! [edit: I didn't notice this was Adam Levy -- He's earned the right to do a video at any pace he wants!]
The basic idea is don't use any fake book as your primary source for learning a tune. Even if it has no errors, it's often an interpretation of the tune with reharmizations and rephrasing of the melody.
When I'm serious about learning a tune I try to find several definitive recordings from the earliest to something recent, listen to the phrasing and harmonization of each, and try to work them out well enough to be able to at least comp with each recording. If I have trouble figuring it out I'll consult a couple of fake books for ideas, but not as an authority.
One useful fake book is "Anthologie des Grilles de Jazz" (a.k.a., the "Jazz Chord Grid Anthology"). It includes no melodies, but the chords seem to be based on early recordings of the tunes, not the reharmonizations you'll typically find in the major fake books. I think it's available in pdf form.Last edited by KirkP; 06-08-2016 at 12:03 AM.
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Another thing I'd like to add. I don't see any reason why someone would ever buy the standard real book instead of the real vocal book.. The vocal books have the same ballpark information but also have the lyrics for the melodies! Which is what you want to be learning.
But then again.. Lining up with the way they do stuff.. They have multiple options. High and Low voice arrangements that are different. Again.. Publishers.. Just take the effort to transcribe the songs to match the originals and then You transpose them to all the keys that don't match up with the songs..
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He said 'don't trust the real book' not 'burn the real book in a fit of rage.'
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The Realz Book is what up!
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Aren't the keys changed for vocalists in the Vocal Real Book and I think the tunes are geared for vocalists too. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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If you look at, say, Real Book I 5th Ed. you will see they did just that. A lot of those "wrong" chords, melodic interpretations, etc., were pegged to specific performances by specific artists. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
What is a "wrong key?"Reminds me of all those fake books they release and every song is in the wrong key. Why not just throw it in the correct keys? You can STILL practice it in all the other keys..
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I couldn't watch, I was bored by 30 seconds in. I was just going off what I hear a lot of folks say. Originally Posted by christianm77
My take is, use the resources available, but if it's jazz you wanna play, eventually you're going to have to work that ear.
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okay.. Which performances then? From what I have seen and researched.. None of the transcriptions line up with any particular performance at all. Be it key or exact melodies. They also use chord names to "imply" what was supposedly played. Ball park at best. Why no actual transcriptions of chords/rhythms and melodies to a specific version of the songs is beyond me. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Wrong keys= Song they say they notated is in say Eb in their book but the actual song is in D and so on.
if you go and buy a transcription book for a specific album it will mist always be a direct transcription of the songs they say they are representing. Which is why it's called a fakebook I guess. The "Real" book is also a "fakebook" in this area I guess. If it was actually a Real book it would be a direct transcription to a specific arrangement. Not some half baked ballpark version. What's the problem with transcribing songs to match a specific performance and Then transpose it to other keys and so on?
no wonder why so many people get confused when starting out.
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Yes. And base your first work when starting out on a song you can buy on iTunes and practice note for note with and of course expand upon. Why expand upon ballpark arrangements when you can start out with something that works. I just don't get it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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What about the New Real Book? Those give sources in the back. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Since the original Real Book was a Berklee homebrew, full of mistakes, patched in the erata in the later editions that no-one ever read. Since the sixth I understand the worst errors have been fixed but TBH I haven't bothered looking at it as I don't use or recommend the book to my students.
I regard the NRB is a good quality professional source for charts but not everything is in there.
The Real Books are so full of mistakes I only use them if I have no other choice. I really can't trust them to get the notes of well known bebop heads right, let alone the frickin chords.
If it is indeed true that Steve Swallow and Paul Bley were responsible for the original book (according to legend) then I think it's rather reassuring for us mere mortals :-)Last edited by christianm77; 06-04-2016 at 04:47 PM.
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Uh oh! I wish I'd read this 10 minutes ago. Originally Posted by christianm77
Jeez
David
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Christian is probably right that the 5th edition is mostly based on the original real book. That's the reference. But also, these are stinkin' old tunes, some of them. Have you heard about the amount of research which real players do to find the lost verses or original changes for some of the older standards? Some of them are just gone. At some point, more common "jazz" changes may be more important to have than the original vanilla ones. I guess it depends on where you're starting from and what your goals are. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Honestly, I'd imagine that modern era tunes, where there is a known "first recording", are taken more "straight from the records". Look at the blues tunes cowritten by Billie Holiday. They certainly aren't watered down rhythms like we think of with some of the standards....but....those standards aren't watered down either. They started straight and were "jazzed up" later. To be fair, things like the Real R&B Book and Real Rock Book are pretty accurate in notating nuanced vocal phrasing. But that's the other thing, you have to be able to read at a pretty stinkin' high level to get anything out of that kind of "accuracy".
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Well, it depends on which recording you are comparing to the book. One performance might be in D, another might be in Eb, another might be in Gb. And whether the recording is an accurate pitch representation of what was played (back in the days of analog tape recordings and turntables, it wasn't hard to be off 1/4 to 1/2 step sharp or flat compared to the key of the performance- not to mention tuning the band to the house piano which could be way sharp or flat). Also, a lot of jazz tunes are scribed in F, Bb, Eb, etc., for the convenience of horns; pianists and guitarists playing without horns often move the song to a more convenient key. And of course singers will frequently transpose a song to keep the melody within their range. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
I am not sure what's confusing about the Real Book. It was never intended to be a book of transcriptions- "Real Book" was just a 1970s pun on "fake book." BTW the Real Book 5th Ed. was allegedly scribed by famous bassist Steve Swallow. Quite a few of the charts came directly from lead sheets from sessions. The 5th edition came with some errata pages for people to correct the charts and make them more accurate, although I have met few people who bothered. In many cases the Real Book versions became the standard versions, since most people no longer learn jazz tunes by ear.if you go and buy a transcription book for a specific album it will mist always be a direct transcription of the songs they say they are representing. Which is why it's called a fakebook I guess. The "Real" book is also a "fakebook" in this area I guess. If it was actually a Real book it would be a direct transcription to a specific arrangement. Not some half baked ballpark version. What's the problem with transcribing songs to match a specific performance and Then transpose it to other keys and so on?
no wonder why so many people get confused when starting out.
An alternative is the series of "New Real Books" from Scher Music. The consensus is that these are more accurate lead sheets. The legal versions of the Real Book have been cleaned up some and the appropriate royalties have been paid.
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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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If Ireal Pro had melody notation, Real Books & Fake Books disappear like the Yellow Pages.
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Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Sure mess up a lot cell phone with people writing in different chords, analyzing the changes, getting ticked at their solo and crumpling up the music.
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The problem with fake books is when people use them as a short cut to avoid really learning the tune, and when they let the book make choices for them.
Example: If you're playing Autumn Leaves and any of your bandmates are using Real Book 5th Edition, you'll invariable end up playing it in Eminor because that's what Bill Evans happened to play it in on a notable recording. Gminor was pretty much standard before that. When you get to bars 27-28, someone's going to insist on playing the chromatic bass line (E-7, Eb7, D-7, Db7) since that's what's in the Real Book. At bar 17, someone will insist on going to F#-7b5 instead of going straight to B7, again because the Real Book tells them to.
I prefer to learn tunes in a vanilla form and have the flexibility to reharmonize in a variety of ways or transpose to any key. (I have a long way to go to achieve this, but that's the goal!)Last edited by KirkP; 06-04-2016 at 06:34 PM.
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Actually, Autumn Leaves was written in E minor and most early recordings are in that key. My hunch is that it was Miles and Cannonball's version on Something Else that influenced others to record the tune in G minor (perhaps Cannonball was playing a concert chart on his alto and they all decided to transpose). Originally Posted by KirkP
Last edited by PMB; 06-04-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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Burn true fire dvds,I know them...and a lot of books,burn all your tablatures books,all williant leavitt books,all theory books...
Django Reinhardt never read a score,and was one of the best,he said to Segovia once time,there is no score,the score is in my mind...
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There was also no IV chord in bar 4 of the original published version. Check out Jo Stafford's take on the tune where they instead go from the Imaj7 to I6. Strangely enough, it's there in Yves Montand's earlier Les Feuillles Mortes recording.
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