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Is there a way to know for sure if you are "properly" "swinging" your lines and comping? Let's say you record yourself playing. What do you listen for?
I mean I "think" I know I'm swinging. P,sy the first note longer than the second but what else is there to listen for? Can swing be defined on paper to a point where one can self diagnose if they are actually swinging?
or do they have to have a "trained swinger" listen to it first?
Lets use a piano roll. On paper and visually. How would you define swing in this context?
How far over the line would some notes be? If at all. And by how much? A 16th note for a 1/4 note swing? Or?Last edited by bobsguitars09; 05-28-2016 at 11:30 AM.
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05-28-2016 11:25 AM
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It's not mechanical, play for some good musicians that can swing and ask them to critic you. Swing is something you have to learn to feel, everyone talk about the eighth note, but greats can make quarter notes Swing. Listen to lots of the great Jazz drummers and bass players, sing their ride cymbal patterns or bass lines and get it in your gut.
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If people feel like moving to your music, you probably swing ok.
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Screw the software, let's hear YOU play.
Swing can be quantified, mechanically...but how does that help you as a player.
It doesnt.
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Or you can submit your paper to the board of certified swingers for evaluation. If you pass you will get certificate yourself. Inquire at amiswinging@noyoucantswing.com
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One way that used to be popular among jazz musicians was to set a metronome to click on 2 and 4, then play along. When it sounds like the metronome is swinging, YOU are swinging.
(Some people don't like this approach. That's okay. I'm not telling anyone to do it. But if you have a metronome and try this, you'll know in a few seconds if you're swinging or not.)
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There's a lot involved in swing besides the 8th note triplet thing, and those other things always distract from the real issue for most guitarists: we're just not down with basic triplets. We can't subdivide or just basically count simple 8th note triplets. First of all, real jazz doesn't only live on swinging 8th notes (the first and third triplets of each beat). There's a triplet in between each of those pairs for each beat. Most of the greats lived up in phrasing that was based off of quarter note triplets - regular on-the-beat quarter note triplets, sure, but mostly, the off-beat variety of quarter-note triplets.
That's where Billie and Lester existed. Modern guitarists from rock backgrounds are mostly trying to learn to play variations of syncopated swing 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-& and make it sound like Lester. Meanwhile, Billie and Lester were syncopating and playing variations of tri-po-let, tri-po-let (quarter note triplets), beginning on the '&' of the beat, or sometimes the 8th note triplet between 1 and '&'. That's the simple vanilla stuff though. When you listen to Wes, you can hear that he clearly heard double-time over everything, regardless of tempo.
You're really swinging when you can 1) subdivide like mad and 2) have really worked out basic polyrhythmic implications of whatever time-base you're in. Honestly, the other feel stuff is just going to be the natural result of that work. You'll listen to recordings and transcribe better after doing it. People always talk about transcribing to learn feel, and I just think that's not the whole answer. I hear tons of guitarists who have spent their entire lives transcribing, and still have no feel for basic swing. You can't transcribe things which are grounded in a time-basis beyond your understanding. Horn players learn this stuff for 6 years in junior high and high school. They know how to subdivide.
Most guitarists who've never done this stuff in school are never going to get there by just listening, because they're not listening to straight blues and 12/8 ballads. They're listening to the greats really screw around with time in a way that's too complex to even hear. And don't tell me about the greats who didn't go to school. That's all fine if you're growing up in the 30's or 40's, in a world where 8th-note triplets are the basis for 99% of popular music. I mean, even cheesy, bad-singing, movie actors from the period swung harder than most amateur jazz guitarists could ever imaging doing themselves. The best-phrasing in jazz: Billie/Lester/Wes et al., based in blues, right? Basically 12/8, with the classic blues double-stop, implying a melodic, off-beat....quarter note triplet.... I hear Steve Cropper in my mind there. :-)
You just have to do the work at some point to learn to subdivide. For guitarists it's simple stuff like pick direction. Can you play a basic cheesy ballad using all 8th note triplets, as if it's in 12/8? You should be able to hear triplets throughout and execute. I think it's helpful if you can play all of them down-up. Beat 1 is D-U-D, beat 2 is U-D-U. For pairs of 8th notes, pick the first twice and the second once, twice as long for the first, right? When you're cool with that, substitute quarter note rhythms with quarter-note-triplets: D-_-D-_-D...., or _-U-_-U-_U....basic quarter note triplets.
That leads you all kinds of places, mainly that the entire understanding of time is thrown out the window, almost like delving into quantum physics. For example, if you sub quarter note triplets for your quarter notes, you progressively get more "ahead" of where the melody otherwise "would be". The "meaning" of everything changes with this displacement, and you also create more "time" for fills etc. If you make the first phrase of a ballad more "ahead" this way, and the second one, more behind, you can sometimes create an entire 4-beat bar's worth of extra "time" to fill in etc. You also can make most anything work, after the fact, when you're time base is not on quarter notes only.
I may do some etudes on this topic, next week. Simple, kid stuff. As of yesterday, I'm "off" from a lot of school-year obligations for the summer. Anyway, enough "what notes to play?" B.S... Time/rhythm/swing really is key, and it pisses me off to hear guitarists who otherwise play so much better than my amateur self, who can't seem to hear basic swing. I think it'd be fun to at least have the conversations, maybe post some etudes etc., maybe get some pros involved. Maybe next week. Sorry to bloviate.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-28-2016 at 04:20 PM.
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your shoelaces will become undone
hah
cheers
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Everybody puts their car keys in a bowl.
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Threadwin.
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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Advice to beginners:
* Don't worry about making the off beat short - in fact it may help to accent it at first. Swing feel is more even than people think. In short - don't try to swing.
* Transcribe lots of phrases, and try and get into the rhythms of the phrases
* Practice duple and triple subdivisions. 6 over 4 is a big one
* Make sure you talk it through with your partner and that you are both happy with the idea
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A. Kingstone, your post on 5/29/16 had me puzzled and scratching my head.
I just got it today.
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Please do some etudes on this topic! They'd be great! Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Your point remains intact but I'd even disagree that it can be quantified. There is definitely a rhythmic element to swing but it's not uniform. At a very fast tempo then the eighth notes will likely be essentially even and the swing will be almost entirely accents and phrasing. At a very slow tempo then it might stretch out toward dotted sixteenths. I'm sure there's a perfect tempo where your swing is sitting at tied triplets but I don't think that's a good way to train. Also ... listen to two players who swing like crazy play the same tune at the same tempo and the length of their eighth notes could be completely different (Dexter Gordon and Sonny Rollins for example). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Sorry to harp on that but the "tied triplet" measurable rhythmic swing is a huge pet peeve for me.
For the OP ... I'd suggest listening to a lot of people swing on tunes you know and try to play along. Transcribe if you can or just try and solo and comp along with the band. I try not to be the jerk that says "just go transcribe" or "dude ... listen to the greats" as an answer for every question but for this one ... listening to guys who swing the ONLY answer.
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With you on this ... I think Nicholas Payton is the one who usually refers to "swing" and the like as "rhythmic freedom"You're really swinging when you can 1) subdivide like mad and 2) have really worked out basic polyrhythmic implications of whatever time-base you're in. Honestly, the other feel stuff is just going to be the natural result of that work. You'll listen to recordings and transcribe better after doing it.
Disagree with a lot of this. There are so many different ways to swing. Players who sound night and day different all manage to swing. I do agree that transcribing isn't everything ...you have to transcribe for the right reason. Like play along with the recordings etc. Not just mine it for harmonic and melodic ideas. I think your sentence about horn players is case in point on why listening IS the essential element. No offense but ... are you saying that all horn players who graduate band programs swing? Christ almighty no. They do know how to subdivide but they don't play or listen to jazz music which is the difference maker. If the point you're making is that rhythmic accuracy is prerequisite in learning to swing then, sure, I'll give you that. But I'd also say that it's a prerequisite for just about any sort of playing. Playing Bach, playing rock music, playing samba (I'd assume). So I think you're making a good case that guitarists often have trouble swinging because they don't have this stuff first. But I wouldn't say that knowing your scales is more important to learning to swing than listening ... or that knowing the tune is more important. Those things sort of go without saying. Yea ... if you can't subdivide then your time will suck. Listening to guys who swing and copying and analyzing and playing along with them is the difference between accuracy and swing.People always talk about transcribing to learn feel, and I just think that's not the whole answer. I hear tons of guitarists who have spent their entire lives transcribing, and still have no feel for basic swing. You can't transcribe things which are grounded in a time-basis beyond your understanding. Horn players learn this stuff for 6 years in junior high and high school. They know how to subdivide.Last edited by pamosmusic; 06-03-2016 at 03:01 PM.
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Different ways to swing...AMEN!!!
I think you gotta be able to sing lines that swing. You ain't gotta be a good singer...but it has to be natural, internalized. Has to be your "voice."
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sing along with the players you love (as long as they swing - e.g. sonny rollins not john maclaughlin etc.)
'till you can sing what they play
try singing along with frank sinatra (a bit easier than bh)
you'll very quickly realize that from a time-perspective you can't come anywhere near doing that
play the same tune over again and again until you sometimes can feel it the way he does
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06-03-2016, 03:33 PM #18destinytot Guest
'Play exciting, not excited.' (Hal Galper)
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i'm terrible at getting over excited (in general) - but when i play in particular
i'd not heard that hal galper line - its very good
(you may have to be quite calm to play really exciting - that's a thought)
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Had a classical guitar teacher that used to say "practice to be surprising -- never to be surprised." Originally Posted by destinytot
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this keeps peaking and calming off - but there's a swing crescendo through the whole thing
its such a joy this performance
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06-03-2016, 05:34 PM #22destinytot GuestI think so. Got that from Uncle João. (A critic once flatteringly described my bossa nova set as 'a performance of bold coolness'.) Originally Posted by Groyniad
Here's another: 'Don't get out of the saddle while you're pedalling.'Last edited by destinytot; 06-03-2016 at 05:38 PM. Reason: correction
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Ok. I'm not a real player. So, I'm talking mostly out of my ass on this, but I think it's an interesting discussion and appreciate pros' patience with me in discussing it. The discussion is pretty real and personal to my own experience in the last couple of years learning this stuff, both from recordings and my own experience practicing. Working on it in this way has opened up my ears as a listener and as a hobbyist player, in a profound way (like it really opened up most of recorded music to me in a whole new way.)
OK. It's certainly true that swing is different player-to-player and relative to tempo, but I think the follow up statement which is usually made is potentially really hazardous to us amateurs, especially for those guitarists who didn't study anything coming up, having to do with triple rhythms. The fact that there's some "give" in swing feel doesn't change the fact that a basic, blues triplet feel is the basis for a lot of that swing feel. You get the unintended phrasing "consequences" from that blues feel: Originally Posted by pamosmusic
...in the way the bassist plays his ghost notes/breaks between notes, singers' and horn players' breaths and tongued notes, the rock of the pianist's right hand, the way drummers constantly hit accents on off-beat quarter note triplets. It's all there regardless of whether you're playing triplets or not, and all of it translates to the larger time structure as well. The charleston-type jumping of the beat, is there regardless of the level or degree of swing. 3-against-4, and the quarter note triplet generally, are a huge part of jazz feel. Triplets are also the common denominator by which musicians like Pat Metheny conceive of playing "ahead" or "behind". And drummers often play on every subdivision of triplets while the rest of us are just swinging 8ths. To say that players are playing with different feels seems somewhat beside the point IMHO.
Yeah, Bach did the triple meter thing. It's found throughout all kinds of music, but it's done very differently in blues and jazz. It's not just polyrhythmic either. It's basically using that 2-over-3 double stop feel to "mess with" what is basically very "traditional western" music, in the Great American Song Book. Totally messes with the phrasing. When you start "subbing" quarter-note triplets for your straight western quarter notes, the way Billie and Lester do, you get something which is unique in all of music. Essentially "moves the beat around"...again, messes with your quarter notes, regardless of what the 8ths are doing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It's phrasing which IMHO is very difficult to just pick up "by ear" without understanding the subdivision basis. But when you use a simple 2-part physical approach, (like picking 2 guitar strings in succession, alternating hands as a drummer, rocking your right hand as pianist etc.) against the 3-feel of triplets, it's a natural result. A lot of it just starts happening unintentionally. The way I hear it, these rhythmic elements (at more moderate tempos) translate to feels (at higher tempos).
I think 99% of the modern population will never "get" Billie Holiday, even if they listen to her their whole life. In fact I think most modern students of jazz probably "pretend" to get her, while never understanding why the jazz greats thought she was such a great musician. Personally, I think that some serious time listening to/playing some slow, 12/8 blues would go farther/faster than just listening to Billie for hours on end. We don't culturally have that 12/8 in our bones anymore. When the 12/8 backing is gone, it just feels "all over the place" or "loose" or whatever. From watching other people at my own low level (and sadly, a number of players otherwise above it) I'd say that many seem to think that Jazz is "just kind of all over the place". But it's highly organized and the more you can mentally subdivide the more you can hear.
Again, I'd love to be a fraction of the player you are some day, but I've seen this discussed on these boards for going-on 10 years now, and it's very confusing for us student types to read seemingly conflicting view points on a lot of these things. A lot of the talk about swing "not being tied triplets" is just a little thick with hyperbole. It's certainly true that it's "not only about tied triplets", but to me, saying "it ain't about tied triplets" is a little like saying "it's all about tied triplets". The fact that some people are over-focused on one aspect doesn't make the other untrue/unimportant, does it? It's hyperbole by omission. It's like, for years now reading...."you'll never hear anyone playing scales in a solo" as a stand-alone statement. That's the whole thing? OK... It's true, and makes a point, but it's a hyberbolic statement which is used against an unspoken balancing argument. By omission, it's saying something about scales, while most of the greats could play every bit of them. But we're not even hearing the balancing statement in a lot of cases in these discussions.
From what I hear, most guitarists can't basically subdivide, when it comes to triplets.
Anyway, I always enjoy your posts, and love seeing a few of you guys who are really living the Jazz life participate here. I appreciate your feedback, and thanks for listening.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-03-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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Yeah I dig all of this. I think you have explained how I think about swing really. That's great stuff... Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Accurate timing is terribly important - not just from a metronomic perspective, but from the point of view of how rhythms can be independent and yet also relate to each other. 6/8, 4/4, 12/8, 2/4 8/8 all happening on top of each other. And then you get into the 5/8's happening in the triplets... Woo!
Barry Harris once said at a workshop I was at 'all these musicians spend all there time looking at mode books, yet they can't play a triplet!' He basically encapsulates a lot of modern jazz concept - straight eights to death, lots of modal harmony. No swing to speak of.
One guy who bucks this trend is Jonathan Kreisberg. If anyone here is interested in digging into this type of polymeter (which should really be EVERY SERIOUS JAZZ GUITAR PLAYER) could do worse than check out his videos on musicmasterclass. I myself, am into the Mike Longo DVDs.
But ultimately? You have to be interested in rhythm. Live, eat and breath it. And don't be vague about it. Ever.
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This subject is so complex though, I think the people who posted here have made some great points, and I hear and understand all of them.
I can't in all good faith pretend that I know what it is to be a truly swinging player, but I have had my moments of swinging. Basically, AFAIK, it's this:
- There is a technical, mathematical understanding of rhythm that has to be internalised.
- Once internalised it has to be forgotten or consigned to the back of the mind.
I'll give you an example - the other day I was playing a gig and I remember thinking 'oh this probably won't be in time, but I'll just kind of float some notes here.' I recorded the gig and listened back - what came out were the best and most natural quarter note triplets I've heard myself play.
Some of my other playing to me sounds, rhythmically a little stiff, usually slightly on top of the beat... That's because I'm trying to grab hold of the rhythms still, rather than just let them come.
So this is what Hal Galper talks about in this video at around 7m in:
The crucial aspect is 'tossing it off' (ooh err missus.)
It's also like Charlie Parker's 'forget all that shit and just play.' That to me, is truly swinging.
So yeah, I think everyone here's right...Last edited by christianm77; 06-03-2016 at 06:16 PM.
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