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Yeah. I didn't say jazz owns good timing. But I have never heard of guitarists playing out if time just to be heard in the mix. Never ever heard that one.
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04-03-2016 10:38 PM
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Just since we're talking time...
Hang in a few minutes (about 2:25 or so) for the trombone solo. Worth it, I promise.
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Blues is the most unforgiving. What I do is easy. I'll play funk and play along to drum tracks all day. I have nothing better to do. Been doing it for 30 years.
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Jazz has some obstacles. The use of midi or click tracks is uncommon and people are always shuffling around from one group to another.
Rockers are smart. They cheat. I saw a band a few weeks ago. The singer had a generic but capable voice. The guitar and bass was just good enough. Before a song I heard....midi. The drummer played free, fairly loose but still aggressive enough. It was effective.
They know- whatever you do, don't throw off the dancers. People were eating it up.
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Hasn't playing behind the beat become a jazz cliché these days, especially for guitar?
When I listen to greats from the past, i.e. Coltrane, I hear them play with time in their phrasing in ways I rarely, if ever, hear today: sometimes ahead, sometimes on the beat, sometimes behind, sometimes ahead/on/behind in a single phrase! But these days I hear guitar players who are consistently and unwaveringly behind the beat (including, if not especially, myself).
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Behind the beat is funky.
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when it's done intentionally, yes, it can be.
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Interesting about Beck. I don't know whether I believe it but maybe. Could be an excuse he cooked up for playing late! But possible. I doubt it.
Regarding the other - way too much choreography for me. I'd rather just play guitar. But interesting.
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I like to groove with an organic sense of time, but sometimes you have a responsibility in the rhythm section to stay on top of the beat to propel the tune with some forward motion, and, if you can't nail the "one" when the tune maneuvers through some compositional sections....it's time for the shed.
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I'm not suggesting a revival for jazz guitar performances but it's worked wonders as a practice technique for my more rhythmically-challenged students. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Whoa, what's going on? Is the band in 6/8 and the trombone in 4/4? And for many choruses at that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by dingusmingus; 04-05-2016 at 09:24 AM. Reason: typo
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Yes! I finally heard it. My little iPhone wouldn't play it. Mingus style 6/8 and the bone is swinging in 4. Cool.
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Speaking of subdivision, has anyone checked this out? I've had it about a week , and it's pretty interesting drum geek kind of stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Ta-Thi.../dp/1930080026
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I discovered this tune last week when I was listening to whatever I could find of David Baker on record, as his passing made me realize I didn't know much about him.
This solo floored me...what a ballsy move.
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you know, the one thing I found that honestly really helped my time feel was playing with other players that had great time.
I remember the first time I got to play with somebody with really good time it was like riding a well tuned bicycle
I don't think you can't really simulate that. Never underestimate how important it is to make friends with bass players and drummers
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Another memorable recording with multiple times:
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I love this CD much of the time. Jeff "Tain" Watts is amazing. Wonderful hip metric modulations. Autumn Leaves was a revelation for me. I was already into some of that stuff. Elliot Carter was too dense and Zappa too hard. This was much different and almost playable if you were them.
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i think playing with people who have good time is the only way to get it
you have to find out how it feels to be in and to stay in time
the time has a feel - the tempo the tune is in has a feel - keeping to it is keeping to that particular feel
if you don't, it doesn't feel like the same tune on the way out as the way in
but learning to appreciate which feel the tune has at a given tempo and stick to it - is a matter of playing with people who feel this already.
speeding up a bit is okay (exuberance and all) - but slowing down almost never is
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being able to stay in time effortlessly is a condition of being able to swing i think
swinging is the sound of someone staying in time so effortlessly they can speed up and slow down whenever they want with NO RISK to the feel
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a big part of the time issue with jazz - and why, i think, there's such a huge gap between those that can really play and everyone else is this
until you really get it you can't stop acting as if you've got time when you're playing a tune to come up with the shit you play
but you have no time whatever to come up with what you're going to play. there is no time. you have to pre-hear everything - because you have to be ready at the very moment the phrase should begin to begin playing it (so you have to know what it is already). you can't be busy at that moment deciding what it is you're going to do.
this is why its so hard to play consistently in time on your own (at home at least). you keep on letting yourself have a bit longer to hear the nice idea you didn't quite hear in time but want to play anyway. and there is time when you're on your own at home - at least in a sense. there's time - but the moment you take it, the tune you were trying to play stops (its just that that is okay because you're on your own - and no-one is dancing.)
its only performance that requires the sort of commitment from you that is essential if you're going to play in time.
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Wise words. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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All this talk of time bring this lovely tune to mind
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I think that playing in time and "internalizing music" go together. The players I know with lousy time are also the players who hardly know any tunes. I think when you really internalize music, that solidifies your sense of time because you carry that music with you everywhere.
If I'm soloing over unfamiliar changes at an uncomfortable tempo, yes my time will suffer...but I KNOW it's suffering and I'm pissed off afterwards. It's not like I'm oblivious to temporarily not grooving. I freakin' know when I'm not grooving, and I think this comes from having internalized a lot of music.
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Kind of true, except some of the guys I know with, maybe not the WORST time, but time so bad you can't play with a band, are some of these guys who are cocktail pianists or solo guitarists where they can rubato all over the place. KNOW A TON OF TUNES, but they're used to having conversations with patrons or being in their own world playing and dragging along. Sounds beautiful. Take any requests and as the saying goes, "Hum a few bars." But holding a tempo with a band??? Fergetaboutit. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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same thing happens on this tune. the sax and piano stay in 4 and bass and drums are playing in 6/8. solo starts 1:30 Originally Posted by dingusmingus
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Yeah, but isn't that because they've built a different skill set? Solo piano, guitar, & singer/songwriters use rubato to liven up their performance and they get used to that flexibility. I've seen that come up at jams too, where a guy wants everyone to slow down & nobody quite gets it & a train wreck ensues. But some of these players are good & could get accustomed to conforming to band tempo if they focused on it. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Sure, of course. But I was responding to coolvinny who intimated that internalizing time by way of knowing a lot of tunes solidifies your time. I'm greatly paraphrasing. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
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