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For anyone first visiting, this thread has become depressingly derailed. There is some good content here on the first couple of pages, (and now back on topic, thanks!) . I was hoping this thread could be salvaged, and open for people to post their favorite arpeggio drills or studies with constructive advice for "getting started" with arpeggios instead of whatever has been going on here.
There is no question that the vast majority of players here find value in arpeggio drills (or studies), and can see their obvious value toward musical applications. End of story. At this early stage in my development, I like to approach fretboard organization, ear training, and tunes using arpeggios as a starting point and building from there. If I have them down, I can easily relate scales, triads, 7th chords, and extensions. For improvising, it helps me work on a chord tone approach. I'm not burning, I'm learning™®. There are other useful applications I'm sure, and also many ways to skin a cat and many other threads to skin said cat.
Please post your favorite arpeggio drills and studies that you feel have helped you progress at various stages of learning jazz guitar. Thanks!Last edited by Mr. Pocket; 01-22-2016 at 03:31 AM.
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01-12-2016 06:24 PM
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One pattern I found helpful:
1 3 5 7 --- 3 5 7 1 --- 5 7 1 3 --- 7 1 3 5 --- etc.
If I am playing within a position, I will play each key from the lowest available inversion to the highest within that position. Same idea if I'm playing on a single string or from a string group mentality.
So if I am playing Bb7 in 1st position I would start with F Ab Bb D (5 b7 1 3) --- Ab Bb D F (b7 1 3 5) - etc.
I would also recommend voice leading triad pairs as soon as feasible.
Ex. Gm7b5 C7+
G Bb Db F --- E C Bb G# --- F G Bb Db --- C Bb G# E --- Db F G Bb --- Bb G# E C --- Bb Db F G --- G# E C Bb - etc.
As to which triad pairs, grab adjacent chords from songs that reflect your interests.
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Play two octaves based on 6th string in position for each chord of Maj scale.
Play a Gmaj7 ...then play two octaves of Gmaj7 arpeggio in 2nd position
the Amin7 then two octaves of Amin7 in 4th position..
Then Bmin7
Cmaj7
D7
E-7
F#-7b5
Then just play the triads
Then all the notes... Gma7 with 9th,11th and 13th
Also Just root through 9th
Learn them all together... all 7 diatonic chords , all 7 notes of each chord arpeggiated.
You want the neck to become one big position.
Don't learn maj then min then dom, etc...... play chords together, cycles and chord patterns after you have the basics down.
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Thanks for the ideas. I try to play everything in two octaves at least but I will start zeroing in on some different patterns in one position, which I think would help me begin to eliminate the root step of playing chord tones. Thanks for those examples, m7b5 I need to work on m7b5 and aug positions.
Originally Posted by bako
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Reg, thanks those are great ideas. I can play chord scales and the arpeggios up and down the neck, but have never done it in one position. I'm not sure what you mean by 2nd and 4th position though, could you clarify? Is that just the finger I'm starting with?
For those who use solfege: If i'm playing arpeggios through the diatonic chord scale in G, I should keep G as "do" the whole way through, correct?
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Joe Elliott's connecting game is a good musical application for multiple chords, like 2 5 1's. A measure of 8ths ascending on the first chord, then descending on the next, beginning with the closest chord tone.
If it's a new position or progression I want to work on, I'll start on the lowest possible note and then play arpeggios progression according to whatever pattern. Then, do the same thing with the next chord tone up, and so on ascending and descending (you get different iterations descending). This way, you're not only practicing starting each of the three chords on every possible chord tone, but you're also practicing every iteration of which voice leads into the next chord as well. Really good for the ears/fingers.
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Position is where your 1st finger is without stretching. When you play a Gmaj scale starting on 6th string with root on 3rd fret... you natural 1st finger position is the 2nd fret.... your in 2nd position. Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
If you can already play all the different two octave patterns from each scale degree of Gmaj using roots on 6th string... which can be transposed to all scales.
Then start working on all the different patterns, games, drills etc... have your basic technical skills together first... you want them to become instinctive references...
There are the other scales, arpeggios etc... same process should be done. And the same thing with chords... All these techniques are somewhat basic musician requirements for performing jazz...
And when you do have these all together... you can use the same approach for two chords, three... etc...
There are basic chord combinations, chord patterns that most jazz tunes,(music in general),use... so there is an order from which you develop your performance skills. What chords to practice together... and learn how to imply and make groove. groove doesn't just mean get funky... just as rhythm has patterns that lock etc... so do harmonic rhythms.
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Thanks, good stuff. I've just about got most of this stuff together. A lot of it is mainly just a matter of putting names to things for me, and knowing how to apply them. So now the next step seems to be going through chord sequences in one position.
I've worked through Frank Vignolas modern method videos, and I'm thinking about picking up a new method that uses a position system (Franks is to learn every way possible of playing everything), and more reading studies. Is the Berklee series the best thing for that, or should I go with more bebop-oriented studies if that's my goal? Of course I'm also working on learning tunes, but it takes me a long time to read through them. Someone also recommended a level one classical book for reading.
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So, focus practice more on a constant 3rds (sheets of soundish) approach as opposed to inversions of arpeggios? Originally Posted by Reg
Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-13-2016 at 11:24 PM.
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The Leavitt Berklee series is great for plectrum guitar reading. He also has two reading volumes. Also, his melodic rhythms book is helpful if reading/playing Parker heads and other jazz heads is too much at the moment. Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
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Hey fumble fingers... yes. the point is to develop a reference and then start using it for applications. Most seem to just keep piling on... this and that and eventually everything becomes one big mess. Not just with arpeggios.
A lousy analogy could be learning to spell with a few letters...
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works for me. i find arpeggio inversions to be at least twice as difficult as blasting thirds... thanks for your answer.
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fumblefingers, could you please give an example of the types of drill/patterns you are comparing?
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3571 vs. 3579 is one example
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As for inversions of arpeggios: my idea is that in real time playing when we play arpegiated lines ... the inversion more often belongs to a few chords... for example 3-5-7-1 of C could bein like E-7 to A-7... or C-7b5 to F7 or... what I mean is that using ROOT arpeggion is important but namely for internal reference.. for some concept that we imply... one can think E-7 arpeggio for the basic reference playing over C-7b5 chord... Even if it is played only over one chord of Cmaj7 in jazz style - at least as I understand it - the soloist playing 3-5-7-1 implies few harmonies behind it... best of all at the top level you think of it any way you want... because you immidiately see that it is also maj7 inversions... but during the learning process I think it's better to think of it as of two root arpeggios... it's important because it gives you also a new perspective immediately.. 1 here is not only root tone of Cmaj7 inversion resolved but a new possibility for development the musical idea... it becomes a beginning of it... so you think of it more as of a target note than as of a part o the same arpeggio... finally I believe musician should develope the skills to use ambiguity of any note or chord - to immidiately see all possible contexts and make proper choices... inversions are also options ofcourse - but playing 2 octaves arpeggios and chord shapes inverted you already cover them basically.. we should not forget also that inversion are really functional harmonically mostly in functional tonality context... are they really so practical for reference in jazz contexts to focus on them specially? I am not sure..... if we speake very very basically anything beyond 3rds realtions is 'somethig to go to' or 'something to go off'... but again it's very basic.. kind of angle to take very general look at these things which is important at the beginning.. but I think at the same time that it's very jazzy look at the full scope of its styles - at least to my limited knowledge of it...
Last edited by Jonah; 01-15-2016 at 07:23 AM.
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Just to be clear, we are talking about technique here (scales, chords, arpeggios - in this case arpeggios), not improvisation. As is the case with many styles, one is technique and the other is music.
That said, there is obvious overlap (thankfully). Jazz vocabulary/improvisation draws on scales and arpeggios but isn't confined to them by any stretch. Jazz vocab involves melodic embellishment, chromatics, motives, phrases, melodies, and even licks (yes, licks).
So, back to the OP and Reg's suggestions, there are a couple of excellent books available at Berklee Press (them again) written by Joseph Viola - "Technique of the Saxophone" Volumes 1 and 2, which involve extensive scale and arpeggio drills. These are applied to static chords, chord progressions, cycles, sequences etc. They will get you movin'.
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I think this is right. What Carol Kaye calls the "chordal scale". In triads and in 7ths. And the cycle. I made the mistake of trying to be "advanced" before I had the basics down. I found some cool things on my own but man, did I have big gaps in my knowledge and ability! Having to fill those in later is harder now (and recently) than it would have been if I had done it as a kid. Originally Posted by Reg
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A link to the Viola book at Amazon. (Check out the "Look Inside" feature.) Looks thorough.
Amazon.com: Technique of the Saxophone: Scale Studies (0073999498202): Joseph Viola: Books
Here's a video about the book----a guy recommending it.
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Just to contribute - my practice regimen calls for playing the complete harmonized progression for major, diminished and melodic minor scales, arpeggios (and their inversions), chord progressions and turnarounds (five types) in each of five positions daily.
Takes about an hour or so.
I rotate the key each day (C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab, etc).
For me this keeps everything connected as Reg suggests.
Feedback welcome, please.
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watching
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Maybe i am wrong but I never liked specifically technical excersises ... as well as I never liked drill... and to be true I do not think there's got to be any drill in this kind of things...
it should be fun.. so I always try to make any technical issue to represent musical idea..
Music should go together with technical basics... it's not that you drill first and someday you may be playing music.. no.. i so too may 'accomplished' players who come out on the stage and do nothing but drilling becacause they were taught to.. sorry for off-top
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Hey, Reg. This is cool , and I get what you're saying mostly, I think. But wouldn't you have to do at least two chords in each position to cover all the iterations on each string? Originally Posted by Reg
Say....seven-note versions of Gmaj7 and then F#-7b5 in second position .... Then, you've already covered all the other chord fingerings by default?
Thanks for sharing.
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Hey Matt yes... so technically yes... once you play all the two octave patterns beginning on each scale degree... You should have all the diatonic chords built from the scales based on Gmaj. All 7 patterns, and yes . But generally you also need to do the same thing based on different roots which changes the locations of the patterns...the goal is for all seven positions or whatever patterns your using for patterns based on 6th string roots to become one big pattern. A neck grid with One Basic Reference.
Gmaj becomes one pattern on the neck with Gmaj as the reference.. if you change that reference or the root on the 6th string to Bbmaj.... it's the same organization of patterns based on each scale degree as Gmaj. But the neck or complete pattern changes right... now the neck becomes, in the Bbmaj example... the neck becomes Bbmaj.... neck grid.
And when you change the reference to become Cmin dorian, even though the patterns are the same as Bbmaj... the reference is different... Bbmaj is different from Cmin... the actual diatonic notes may be the same... but in jazz diatonic has a very expanded view.... it's not just the 7 notes.... there are mechanical type of relationships that are always part of the basic tonal target reference. It's all the relationships that aren't organized with the starting 7 notes ... you hear the term Vanilla... theirs one source...of very physical reason.
It's not hard or difficult... but if you don't have these basic technical skills... instruments are different, guitar technical skills...
anyway you'll need to go through to many steps to be able to reference harmonic targets physically... and generally your late. It's not the only way to develop skills on guitar... but most guitarist who can play at faster tempos... comfortably... effortlessly... and not struggle have some type of complete neck organization. And I'm talking about being able to play 1st time... not rehearsed. Which in reality most will never need the skills...but if your going to play jazz and at the tempos of jazz...live.... it will help.
It's like... your playing a typical jazz tune... being able to spell arpeggios of each chord and starting on each degree while using the melody or whatever line you want to play.... is just the beginning... there are also all the typical jazz harmonic relationships... that one target chord usually becomes a chord pattern, or whatever harmonic type of relationship you hear or want to develop.
Jordon is into his triads with added note(s) organization with inversions etc...for applying to changes... which is very cool, but your not even going to be able to think about using with out.... again the neck becoming complete grids.
The other approach is to memorize.... which eventually your hard drive... your head is going to slow down. so forget about live performance. We're not a single note instrument.
It's really easy to see if what your working on actually works... right. Play through tune you don't know... not a non time tune.... something that pushes yourself..... what worked and what didn't.... why didn't something work fast enough.
How many times did you stop, or what you were trying to play... break down.
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question: if you're playing an extended arpeggio w 9, 11, & 13 am I correct in thinking those extensions should be altered so that they are diatonic to the key? I.E. Gm7b5 as VII of Ab = G Bb, Db, F. For the extensions would you play, Ab, C & Eb or A nat, C, & E nat which are 9, 11, & 13 from root of G?
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yes Originally Posted by SeanZ
no Originally Posted by SeanZ
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