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Try Talmud.. it's more about jazz...I can see now, that my way of thinking about the learning of jazz is very German, in a tradition of trailblazers like Kant, Hegel, Fichte, kind of deductive. I am expecting to have a general overview, a complete theory of the serveyed matter, and than I am going to deduce the special, empirical (guess I shouldn’t try write about philosophical stuff in a foreign language I am not profitient in). Obviously, there is no closed, complete model for learning jazz. The way to has to be more inductive, collect certain empirical blocks and let them grow together as a whole. One of these blocks should be mastery of the mechanical implications of the instrument. Right now the instrument feels strange, I am disoriented, lost.
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02-01-2016 02:37 PM
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Funny you should mention that. I read that Harold Arlen's father was a synagogue cantor. One day when Harold was in his teens (--still in Buffalo; before moving to New York City), he was listening to a Louis Armstrong record. Louis was scat singing. Harold's father overheard it, burst into Harold's room and said, "Where did he get that?" Harold's father sensed a connection between what Louis was doing and what he himself did in the synagogue.
Originally Posted by Jonah
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well .. when I saw Talmud for the first time I was shocked... there's comment to the comment and to teh comment and to the comment... and they keep making comments to this day even (though not in Talmud)...
It was really so different from what I saw in European philosophy
Jewish pjilosophy really has tendency to avoid determined notions.. to always keep the conversation.. the dialogue... the idea is not to reach some final goal and fix it... but the truth is how you keep it going all the time...
that reminds me jazz especially... and European art concept in general...
Jewish tradition did not have art - men could only didicate themselfs to religious studies... or go for scular jobs
they had to become christians if they had artistic ambitions... but probably it is exactly theier mentality, their way of thinking that gave so may great artists to European art...
besides I am sure Benny Goodman's and Arty Shaw's clarinets come from klezmer tradition of their anscestors...
to keep in topic... they really would have made you to go through all arpeggio drills in jazz yeshivahs...
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I do the "Arpeggio Connection" game from the Joe Elliot book in the following ways:
1. Whilst doing the game I sing a root note drone of the corresponding arpeggio, either by its interval location or mode name. For for example over a Dm7 I might sing the note D said as "Twooooooooo" or "Doriaaaaaaaaaan", then over G7 I'll sing the note G said as "Fiiiiiiiiive" or "Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiix". This way I have the root note going on all the time over the changing intervals of the arpeggio at that time.
2. Singing the root of the corresponding arpeggio at the time only when it passes on the guitar. So for a Dm7 arpeggio I might play b3 5 b7 R b3 5 b7 R b3 etc. and on the R's I sing that note, said as above (in no. 1) i.e. "Two" or "Dor" (for Dorian) etc. This way I am making a stronger link with the root note locations within each arpeggio as they change.
3. Singing all the notes at the same time as played on the guitar.
4. Singing each note just before playing it on guitar.
5. Singing all of the notes while putting my fingers on the corresponding frets but not playing the guitar.
6. All of the above on a specific set of strings (e.g only the A,D and G strings).
7. Singing a made up interval sequence from a scale that corresponds to the chord, and singing the same pattern on the chord changes. For example on Dm7 I might sing 6 (B) 5 (A) 2 (E) 1 (D) then on the G7 I have to sing that too: 6 (E) 5 (D) 2 (A) 1 (G), then for Cmaj7: 6 (A) 5 (G) 2 (D) 1 (C).
It's always easier to sing the root note of each chord first then go to another interval in the arpeggio, rather than try to sing an interval "cold" straight away with the chord change e.g. the 6th of the G7 when changing to G7 from Dm7. The cold approach must be worked on though while chord tones are generally easier.
Reaching all of the above on impulse to have such a framework behind improvisation is something I'm a long way off with, however with only 12 intervals there does come points where different roads meet and progress is sudden. Theoretically the more I do the easier it will get.
6th is a tricky one, I guess because it's not a chord tone and it's farthest away from root (at least if going upwards). I also find the 4th tricky. I want the 6th to feel "comfortable" as I want to for all the intervals to be in my improvisational vocabulary. If you can't sing it cold, over all and any chord changes without some effort, then you can't improvise it in a deliberate meaning-full way, unless by fluke or passing between destinations in a line IMO or by my definition in relation to my goals anyway.Last edited by Arpeggio; 02-06-2016 at 04:15 PM.
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Down at the Amateur Dental Society, arpeggio drill has a whole 'nuther meaning...
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Would love to hear or see some of the Right Track...
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@ dortmundjazzguitar... I believe the implication of this thread is that the player working out how to play arpeggios is also working on music. By learning and mapping out how to play arpeggios you are actually speeding up the learning process. Don't be lazy folks learn everything you need to learn so you can play music without much thinking.
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Would love to hear or see some of the Right Track...
San Fransico is too far from Dortmund...
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I've heard dortmundjazzguitar. He's a great player and has studied and understands jazz and jazz guitar deeply. Robert, you should take him up on his offer and visit him in Dortmund, or find out when he's playing in your neighborhood. I know he occasionally gigs in Cologne. Originally Posted by Reg
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@dortmundjazzguitar... There is no right way to learn jazz or music to me. However, you have to spend your time doing many different things in my opinion to get good in a timely manner. I would not advice someone wanting to learn jazz to spend most of his time playing with records (I would emphasize a LOT of listening). There's a lot of other things to learn like ear training (focused ear training) and learning the instrument by systematically mapping out the things that will be used time and time again like chords, scales, etc. Learning your way works also (provided you have a relatively good ears to begin with), but it will take longer to map things out and learn the instrument. This is from my personal experience and journey.
Last edited by smokinguit; 02-09-2016 at 01:19 PM.
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Been away for a few days, now there is a lot to answer, might get long again...
Year, that is a basic problem here... The thing is, I approach everything in a holistic way. Have been a learning machine all my life, and I always tend to dig deep, to understand the nuts and bolts. That is too big a task concerning jazz guitar, I understood that so far. And it is so much harder than other learning processes, because it is not just an intellectual process--you all know that anyway. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
That's what I am doing for a few years now. I view the stuff to be learned from any perspective possible. And in the meantime I can do that for fun. Just doing all that you recommended above, and get a tiny piece of the big picture every time. Slowly I can feel that things are growing together, though I still feel to be an absolute beginner. There are at least three problem areas which need to be tackled: Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
1. My interest about scales and arpeggios is more rooted in the will to know the fretboard, I have decoupled that part from my wish to learn to improvise. That is a result of this thread. Recently, I see myself looking at piano keyboards yearningly. Though I never touched one in my life, I developed the idea that I could have a clear and precise orientation on an instrument like that (yes I am sure that it provides other obstacles). Just by looking at a picture of a keyboard I can visualize chords and lines. My orientation on guitar is none. When I look at my fretboard, I see an empty matrix. There are "keys" to be pressed, but these keys are not named in my brain, they all look exactly the same, no labels on them. Of course there are some landmarks (thinking about it I see: most notes on the first and sixth string, serveral notes inbetween, notes fifth fret, most C notes on the whole fretboards, some geometric cells for certain intervals like R-3-5-R as long as the b string is not coming into my way). Scattered islands, starting points from where I have to iterate the rest. Which is a time consuming thought process. I wonder if it wouldn't be better the know the fretboard down cold, reach to any note without thinking. There are people that can do that. It should be possible to learn it. Or not? Only for the gifted? So that's one task for itself...
2. With all the different approches to learning guitar I feel the tendency to get bogged down. Probably I am wasting a lot of time, though I am having fun with most stuff I am practicing. So I wonder--like so many others--if there isn't a systematic approach to learn jazz guitar. As far as I can see, a big part of discussions in this place a circling around this question, often ending in a aggressive quarrel... To define a systematic approach, it is obviously helpful to have a target. Getting more and more clear about that while being involved in threads like this. Most likely, I will never play together with others, won't ever be solo improviser in a band. Even if I wanted to, there is nobody around. For this kind of music (and most other), I am in a total void. So in the end the target would be to play chord melodies, which I love dearly. I have done a lot of chord melody transcription in the past. And I think I could be able to create my own chord melodies already, though I never tried that and I am still pushing that along into the future (want to have point #1 solved first).
3. Hearing. While taking part in a music MOOC (music theory/basic composition of classical music) last year, I had do a quizz which threw chords out of my computer speakers and I had to decide if that is a major or dominant sound. I failed miserably, a bit more than 50 % correct answers. Looked up some training websites for that matter and worked on it for some days. I steadily delivered around 55 to 60 % correct answers, which is just a tiny bit better than throwing a coin. Haven't touched that again for a year now. A black hole I am really afraid of... No problem to hear/feel the difference, the musical function when I am playing these chords by myself. But if heard from piano or midi, it is more or less guess work. I wonder if that might be a source for other problems?
Thank you, I really appreciate that offer! Dortmund was my dad's German home town, my grandfather is buried there, so I have quite a connection to the city. It is about two hours from here, not easy to integrate in everyday life. Once or twice a year we are going to Münster to visit friends, so there might be opportunities in the future to couple that with Dortmund. I'll PM you if something like this is coming ahead... Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Yes Paul, I heard him too, and really like what I heard. Set a high value on your opinion anyway... I am sure that a meeting would be great. It would be great in general to get out of my virtual black hole and meet some real jazzers, as I realized when we met in December;-) Originally Posted by pkirk
Robert
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I guess you have seen my long and tedious answer to dortmundjazzguitar... I am quite sure that he didn't mean "right track" in a dogmatic sense... Most things he recommended I am doing already. And I see also the need to do things that you recommended, so I appreciate that. But with all the stuff spread out in front of me, it is easy to get lost... Originally Posted by smokinguit
Robert
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I am really sorry for working on that! It just fits here... Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
Robert
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I don't know... this approach depends too much on a student - you really need to have personal contact lessons for a time being to lead him this way...
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You take it too complex...reat! Some decades back, at the end of a Nuclear Reactor Design seminar at university, when everything came together (a rather high level of math, Maxwell equations, Thermodynamics, whatever has been learned before), I was able to set up a system of differential equations describing the dynamics of a working reactor core depending on the positions of control rods. And I could solve that stuff and understand what is actually happening in there (and thus realize why human beings shouldn't run nuclear power plants at all, but that's another story). Back then, I had a feeling: "Man, this is where air is getting thin, there aren't too many people in this world that could follow. If I am able to understand that, most of the things in usual life shouldn't be too big a problem...".
Well, I was quite young and obviously didn't know much about life. Especially, I've never had a guitar in hand back then and I hadn't tried to play a major scale on that device. Nuclear physics obviously is a piece of cake compared to the guitar fretboard. After the discussion above and matt's answer to SoS (and his video) I am more at loss than ever before. To get behind Reg's fingerings, I have drawn them like this:
Attachment 27570
Everything is shown in relation to abstract root notes, so the fretboards are not starting where the drawing starts--they are endless, sort of. I have the seven scalar patterns displaced to each other, because I understood that they all can be put onto each other (with the displacements shown), so they build on large system that covers twelve frets and repeats in both directions. And I thought, that is what Reg is talking about with the "one great fingering all over the freatboard" thing. On the upper freatboard diagram I have drawn all seven major patterns pushed together to one large pattern:
Attachment 27571
In the second fretboard diagram, I tried to implement the G min scale thing SeanZ talked about. I would have thought, that we would take fingering #6 (Aeolian) of the major scale, and start with second finger sixth string as root note G (G is only the actual example, it could be any root note) in that pattern to have a G min fingering. If I rename all notes of the other six fingerings in the same way (starting with the minor scale root, where the 2 has been in the major scale), and compress all seven patterns to one large fingering, I get the same big structural thing (only the relative note names shuffled around).
Now, it seems, that "most people are generally misunderstanding" this, me too. What shall I do to learn the fretboard and use it to improvise? Since I have the feeling, that I shouldn't solely need to know these fingerings and the relation of notes within these fingerings, but also the actual note names with respect to the actual context I am using these fingerings in, and see all that in application by improvising with a band that is spitting out two different chords per measure at 180 bpm, subs and all that--how should I believe that any brain has ever been able to do this? I doubt it that mine could do that any time soon. Maybe I would rather put my guitar back to the wall and look for another hobby, maybe build a nuclear power plant in my backyard...
You have G major key.
You take all 7 chords in it diatonically major (or Ionian) in reference to 6th sting root (Gma7 A-7 B-7 Cma7 D7 E-7 F#-7b5)
Then you play 2 8ves arpeggio of each chord with Reg's fingering in position... just practice it intill you do it fluently.
The idea is that when you play B-7 arpeggio you can imply it to any context wherever you imply B-7 as harmony actually... (so yes.. playing music you should understand/hear the context)
Then play 13th arpeggio of each chord in postions... when you play it you will see that you cover different extensions when you apply it to different chords...
From A it will be b7th 9th 11th 13th
From B it will be b7th b9th 11th b13th
etc.
What's important that you get the sound in your ear this way too
When you play A-13 you get to hear Dorian... when you play from B you get to hear Phrrygian...
So you begin to hear it both in the key context as functions but also modally...
And you should also play the scales in the same way - so to cover the notes in between...
Do not shift or traspose it just play it in G untill you do it on fly without thinking.. just hearing...
Then if you do all the same basing on Melodic minor - you will cover practially all possible extensions all over the fretborad...
Knowledge of the fretborad is not knowing occasional notes - it is when the it immediately reflects the musical concept or contest you get into however complex it is...
It's not permission to play or not to play some certain notes! It's just possibility to appoint notes you want to play at your will!Last edited by Jonah; 02-09-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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I'm sure that balance and common sense come into anything. You have to use some judgement. Sure, the tunes do most of the teaching, but occasionally you have to pull back and get some things together, because certain aspects don't lend themselves to learning only in the context of tunes.
Probably not wise to learn dozens of every variety of arp if you can't comp through a basic standard or play some melodies, but again I think that falls into the category of "common sense". For example, it was earlier mentioned by multiple players that min7b5 chords were a problem for them. In my mind, that's simply a basic form problem. Min7b5's just occur so much less often than the other types. So, if you don't stop and specifically work on them some, they're going to be exponentially more problematic for you compared to the others.
A lot of this, I'm sure, is just personal preference as to degrees to which drills or exercises should be worked at, but even if you stop to repeat things that are giving you problems in a tune you're practicing, it's still basically a drill. I think a lot of this is semantics...Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-09-2016 at 07:16 PM.
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I would add that at certain moment we have to learn how to practice ourselves... to choose material, to notice weak points... to learn to know what you need .
it's like school and university... at school they will push you, will try to keep you on anyway... at the university they just give and if you do not choose and take you get nothing or mess (at least in my country)
It's also artistic maturity to know what you need it all for... Reg noticed a few time that people often play just what they can instead of what they want... so they have to learn all possible and then to be able to choose...
That's where I disagree... I even think thta's impossible becasue people have choice where they see it (so probably the they have choice - just different)
But if they really are guided musically by their technical ability it shows dramatic lack of artistic maturity...
I think in this case you should not learn all the possible ways and styles to play - you should just think and decide what you want to play what you need it for...
You don't have to know all the ocean to navigate a few routes you like...
but in this case you usually really jnow what you want and do not ask questions
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Certainly this is something I cannot crunch into my 20 guitar minutes between breakfast and beginning of work. I'll try to get into it on Sunday. I'm sure there'll be questions... Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Robert
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Same here--have to dig myself into your suggestions on weekend...
I wasn't confronted with this differentiation in arpeggios before this thread. Trying to draw that in respect to the first of Reg's fingerings: Originally Posted by Jonah
Is that it?
Robert
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I'd rather use this diagram by matt... Matt it got into it more deeper which is good...
But I think if you start just use Reg's notated versions of 7th arps, scales and 13th arps.
Triad arps are also good, and Triad through 9th(2nd) I like especially.
The basic reference you have always 2nd finger on root of 6th string and you stay in this position.
So for Gma7 you have 2nd finger on the 3rd fret (we're in 2nd position because positions are named after location of the 1st finger). The only exception is min7-5 arp starting with the 3rd finger.
So you have to do stretches to play arps and scales staying in the same position.
The very basic idea is that whe you have all 7 diatonic chords down with scales and arps you have all the fretboard in G major down... you can play down the neck up the neck - it's up to you..
When you want play G major startind from 10th fret your 2nd finger gives you immidiate refernce to D mixolydian (G major scale over Ddom7 chord - that us Gmaj - just starting from D).
Soon you'll notice that these position fingerings cover each other: like you can play A note on the 1st string using A-7, Gmaj7, B-7 fingering position... eventually you just begin to mix it all... and it becomes one big position that reflects just what you want to pla
what's importnt that you also learn modal and harmonic referenced this way...
When you can imply subs or modal concepts - you also have immediate reference...
I mean you learn it at the same time all t the keyogether but also separately - so you can put any harmony in different context and you have practical references on the neck... like B-7 fingering in G major is B Phrygian... but once you throw in in the context of D major you either change it to B Aeolian to fit or you can keep it as Phrygian but you'll get min 7th sound in D... so you play it say in the bridge over Ddom7 going to subdominant... it depends on what you want...
And you don't have to think of it in terms of modes... it's enough that you you know that you got C there and it's min7 in D major, and minor 9th for B-7
What's important that if you all that and also in melodica minor you will have all the techical options... the question will be only to have musical ideas, music to play..Last edited by Jonah; 02-10-2016 at 04:12 AM.
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My question was about nomenclature--what a 13th arepggio actually is. So I got it, my idea is congruent with matt's diagrams (first page/first column).
Thanks!
Robert
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I think that's it. Originally Posted by diminix
Same here--have to dig myself into your suggestions on weekend...
I wasn't confronted with this differentiation in arpeggios before this thread. Trying to draw that in respect to the first of Reg's fingerings:
Is that it?
Robert
Also, I think Jonah was trying to point out that when you go to the 13th, you're highlighting real DISTINCTIVES of each chord.
3rd scale degree is a min7 chord, but more SPECIFICALLY, it's a min7b9b13.
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... you guys get it. Like I've always said.... it's not complicated. It just takes a little more time for big picture to kick in... which makes using any cell or organization of notes... very easy to see... and hear, anywhere on the fretboard.
As Jonah was saying, you'll also develop skills of seeing as well as hearing relationships... how a triad or 7th chord can relate to other triads or 7th chords... the advantage is you'll be able to do this anywhere on your instrument... or at least you'll have the choice to.
The real big advantage of the approach is your learning to performing with the actual physical design of the guitar.
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