Jazz guitar arpeggio drills

[SeanZ]

I'm clearly not getting it, and the fact that someone who's clearly alot more intelligent than I doesn't either is only a very slight comfort. Matt would be grateful for your posting andy 'read-through' which you feel might help our comprehension of what Reg is trying to explain.

thanks,

[SeanZ]

The tricky part might be... all seven of the fingerings I use....... are one fingering. the location of the 2nd finger is just the physical part of how I move around within the 3 octave repeating pattern.

I use the 2nd finger as physical makers for connecting the one big 12 fret fingering together as my base.

You can use any fingers anywhere... but like the piano... the location of the notes doesn't change. You need to add one more layer or dimension to your perception of notes on the guitar... Your trying to see or understand a 3 dimensional concept with only 2 dimensions.

So yes I could be using my 2nd finger to play G's on any string anywhere on he neck.... but that is a performance thing.

What we're trying to understand is the physical organization of the notes on the fretboard, and how they repeat.

And I have a fingeringing system that I use to navigate that... notes on the fretboard that repeat. Which on guitar is.... 12 frets and 3 octaves.

Any fingering organization could work. I just made a choice a long time which one I though was most logical and worked the best.

You can take away the fingerings and 6th string root base organization of the fretboard.... the repeating pattern of notes is still there.

Reg, sorry to be so abtuse but could you try and explain to me more clearly what you meant when you said that I'm trying to understand a 3 dimensional concept w 2 dimensions? I.E. what are the 2 dimensions that I'm using and what is the 3rd dimension that I'm missing?

thanks,

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm clearly not getting it, and the fact that someone who's clearly alot more intelligent than I doesn't either is only a very slight comfort. Matt would be grateful for your posting andy 'read-through' which you feel might help our comprehension of what Reg is trying to explain.

thanks,

Not smarter I'm sure. Only took me about six years to sink in...

Edit: a couple of mistakes annotated with notes already. Let me know of others. Thanks.

[Vladan]

I started writting one post before you posted this clip, where I wanted to bring in one idea that may be is not so obvious about this concepa and that is, as Reg says, it is so you can play "NOTES". You can understand it as "what's noted", ie, what's written. In another word, it's about reading. If you look at it from that perspective, maybe you don't hhave to go all the way to Fukushima, maybe not even to piano. Whatever note you need, you know where it is based on where your middle finger is, so you can immediately play it without thinking about it, because you're not required to think. You're to play what's written.

Then, you build from there.

[Reg]

Reg, sorry to be so abtuse but could you try and explain to me more clearly what you meant when you said that I'm trying to understand a 3 dimensional concept w 2 dimensions? I.E. what are the 2 dimensions that I'm using and what is the 3rd dimension that I'm missing?

thanks,

This is not an intelligence issue... and the dimensional reference was just an attempt to help open different doors... rather than the one that is making this concept of the guitar complicated.

But if the in position playing is the two dimensional approach. That is... what your using for the basic reference of what your playing is the notes on one string between your 1st finger and your 4th finger... is one dimension, the 2nd dimension would
be the notes across the fretboard... the same as one string, but now 6 string. So your in a two dimensional world...
now add the 3rd dimension... the same concept as in one position, but now include the rest of the other positions, within a 12 fret range.


So instead of just being aware of, or having as instincts... that one position.... have all positions become one bigger pattern of notes, a 12 fret pattern. And that becomes one big position that includes 12 frets. And you use whatever you choose as fingerings to navigate performing withing that 12 fret position. And instead of just using stretches to reach extra notes, or slides etc... your using different fingerings within that big 12 fret, 3 octave pattern.... which repeats.

Maybe the complication is... one does need a basic understanding of the mechanical aspects of music.

Playing in 2nd position and implying Gmaj7 or Ionian... is the same thing as playing in 4th position and playing Gmaj7 or Ionian. The fingerings of the notes don't change what your playing. Generally guitarist think of 4th position with Amim or Dorian when playing a scale or arpeggio using the notes from Gmaj. It's the 2nd pattern of the 7 positions I use.

But those notes only become A- when you change the relationships between the notes... to imply Amin.

Again ... you can also move to 6th, 7th or 8th position and be using the what many of you think of as different modes.

Those positions don't change from Gmaj.... again until you or someone else changes the relationships between the notes.

I use the 7 fingerings to organize what I use as my reference for playing, (in the Gmaj ex.) all the notes from gmaj and any relationship I choose to create. All those.... what many think of as different modes, are Gmaj until I choose for them to become something else.

I use 12 fret note patterns as my reference. And the fingering I use, (all 7), are just part of that pattern.

When I think or hear Gmaj...I don't just think low E string 3rd fret... I hear all the note from that Gmaj on the guitar.

Which is a 12 fret repeating pattern of organization... and I use those 7 fingerings, (and many others) to play what I choose.

And yes It also works well for reading... but that isn't the main reason for using. It's how the guitar is designed.

Hope helps... I don't know if I can give any better explanations... sometimes it just take time to get things. Y

Your 1st teacher... should have taught you this along time ago. Or you should have figured it out yourself. Obviously it's not on the web. I could say some bulls*** now but who cares.

Some things don't come from learning tunes and transcribing or time on your instrument...



... just also want to say.... I'm a pro, play all types of music ***** I need to have these skills and understandings. Most amateurs... ? I don't know, probable not. And if your just doing your own thing even at a pro level. Again you don't really need to get all the BS. You become great at what you do or like... personally that is a very cool and beautiful thing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Some things don't come from learning tunes and transcribing or time on your instrument...

Appreciate this post, reg.

I remember a similarly exasperated-sounding post about a year-and-a-half ago which kind of busted my chops and forced me to really examine priorities of things I was doing and the way I thought.

I've done a lot of the work, and I'm definitely better for it. Thanks.

[SeanZ]

appreciate your patience and the detailed response Reg and think I'm at least beginning to see a 'glimmer' of understanding. And if I am, what would seem to be the next learning step is where (string & finger) do you connect the 7 shapes/patterns to have the entire fretboard available as key of 'G' (just for example)? Any suggestions?

[Shadow of the Sun]

What I like about Reg's system is specifically that it's mostly just about learning the notes on the damn neck.

And it's a very good way of doing so. Once I've got it down, I'll be able to put a finger on the neck, and then instantly go "okay, what note is this? Well, my 2nd finger would be on (say) the D# on the 6th string, and I know the physical relationship, so I know exactly where I am."

It also helps give a better understanding of theory, in my point of view, specifically because you're not just taking a shape and moving it, you're learning the pattern of the neck and using it to build scales and chords.

[diminix]

Woke up this morning and found a lot of stuff to digest. Try to work through step by step...

Yeah, Robert. I feel you. I'm right there with you, a couple of weeks ago.

The thing is, you set your fretboard software , which I'm assuming is lick my neck, to display scale degrees. Click on "note names" instead of scale degrees and look at it the same way,
[...]
The idea is to look at references which are CONSTANT rather than changing. The theoretical reference of scale degrees and modulating scales completely changes everything when you change scales. That's where the thought that you have to "change all of your patterns every time a note changes" comes from.
[...]
Use the CONSTANT (note names, and they're never changing locations) to give you the fingering and the theory, the way you would on a piano , rather than using the THEORY or PATTERNS to change everything in the first place. Mixolydian and Dorian are the same except for one note . Aolian and Dorian same thing. etc. etc.
[...]
Tweaking your diagrams above would be a good first start though.

Ok, did it. I am not using any special software to produce these diagrams, they are drawn "by hand" using Adobe Illustrator (which for me is a graphic designers everyday tool [1]). That is not just a click on some menu button, but a lot of drawing and shifting notes around. But I apreciate this way of doing it, because it gives me clues about the geometric properties of the fretboard. Now my endless fretboard grids are becoming real fretboards, so I indicated fret zero with a double vertical line:



This is certainly starting a thought process. Without any regard to scales, arps, modes and improvisation I want to know the fretboard with the physical position down cold. Last fall I started to follow the Practial Standards threads, used the tunes for absolute basic stuff: listen to different versions of the songs, especially with singers, taking a look at the lead sheets and trying to play the melody, trying to play the chords as good as possible. While working at the tunes melodies, I realized that I am absolutely lost on the fretboard, endless time needed to locate most of the pitches. When I finally had the melody down at one area of the fretboard and tried to relocate it to another area, everything is set back to start, fumbling around to get the melody working there again. So I want to have an in-depth knowledge of the fretboard. To work on that, your perspective is certainly helpful, your second video in post #269 especially.

Robert

[1] I have been asked via PM, if I would give away my Illustrator sources. If that could be useful for somebody, I'll happily share it (Illustrator CS 4/Windows, packed in ZIP-Archive): fingerings_reg1.zip

[matt.guitarteacher]

Woke up this morning and found a lot of stuff to digest. Try to work through step by step...



Ok, did it. I am not using any special software to produce these diagrams, they are drawn "by hand" using Adobe Illustrator (which for me is a graphic designers everyday tool [1]). That is not just a click on some menu button, but a lot of drawing and shifting notes around. But I apreciate this way of doing it, because it gives me clues about the geometric properties of the fretboard. Now my endless fretboard grids are becoming real fretboards, so I indicated fret zero with a double vertical line:



This is certainly starting a thought process. Without any regard to scales, arps, modes and improvisation I want to know the fretboard with the physical position down cold. Last fall I started to follow the Practial Standards threads, used the tunes for absolute basic stuff: listen to different versions of the songs, especially with singers, taking a look at the lead sheets and trying to play the melody, trying to play the chords as good as possible. While working at the tunes melodies, I realized that I am absolutely lost on the fretboard, endless time needed to locate most of the pitches. When I finally had the melody down at one area of the fretboard and tried to relocate it to another area, everything is set back to start, fumbling around to get the melody working there again. So I want to have an in-depth knowledge of the fretboard. To work on that, your perspective is certainly helpful, your second video in post #269 especially.

Robert

[1] I have been asked via PM, if I would give away my Illustrator sources. If that could be useful for somebody, I'll happily share it (Illustrator CS 4/Windows, packed in ZIP-Archive): fingerings_reg1.zip

Man, Robert. Sorry about that....

Lot of work there. Had the name wrong anyway. It's "neck diagrams". Super helpful and powerful in this regard. Once it's in there. Notes and scale degrees are just a click.

I'm very pleased if only a couple of people are more enlightened to the process at least. Reg had always said it was just basic, and it really should be. I've never seen anybody else present it that way though. Classical is very different, and fret positions are usually notated anyway.

Thanks for posting the diagrams.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok, 3rd time's a charm. I've been wrong twice on this: It's called "Neck Diagrams". Apologies to all.

Here's just another way of looking at it...parallel. Again, the focus from this viewpoint is on the constants rather than variables, like "where does my phrygian fingering go when I change the key?". These key changes are only by one note at a time and are very simple.

[Reg]

Yea... great diagrams. I wish I could put material like that together.... can't. Thanks Diminix and Matt.

So if the fingerings or basic concept is somewhat new or awkward to you... it might be easier to start with scales, ?

But the way to approach practicing....

Play all 7 patterns, (or whatever pattern you choose to use), usually start with Gmaj. (Guitar friendly), anyway play all seven patterns through 12 frets... Don't worry about the key... just get the patterns and fingerings down. This would just be a physical drill. not musical etc...

Once you get the patterns together and begin to see and feel them blend together... now start more musical drills.

Take the same 12 fret exercise and now use Gmaj as the tonal target. All seven patterns can imply Gmaj.... which leads to being able to play or imply Gmaj. anywhere on the neck.

The next step is to use the same location on the neck and now imply a different tonal target.... You can use cycles or whatever... say you choose Cmaj. for second exercise...
... I know cycle or circle of 5ths is very standard... but playing jazz uses circle of 4ths much more than 5ths, you need both.

anyway... start again in 2nd position... but this time imply Cmaj. this means you would be starting with the 5th pattern of fingerings I use, or what many call mixolydian, when the tonal target is that G on the 6th string.

But that's not what you doing... your using Cmaj as your target and just starting on the 5th degree or note of Cmaj scale. Sp play that pattern and think and hear Cmaj. If you need... just play a C note first as a reference, then the pattern.

then move up the the next pattern, which would be the 6th pattern, which would be the old Aeolian minor mode, Again now it's still Cmaj. Finish the 12 fret 7 fingering pattern starting on That 6th string G and implying Cmaj.

Then on to key of F... then Bb etc..

The point of the exercise is your learning the repeating pattern of the guitar neck with reference to tonal targets... at this stage, different keys. which represent the complete fretboard.

After the fingering become more natural or instinctive... move on to different scale patterns. Then onto where this thread started... argeggio's, but now you would be learning again complete patterns which repeat.

Triads, 7ths, 9ths and then complete arpeggios, all seven notes.

At this point your ready to start playing chords, and chord pattern... like Marks altered II Vb9 pattern cycle.

One of the big differences when learning the basics first.... the fingerings for playing something like The altered II Vb9 cycle... is already there. You don't learn a fingering, you just play it, and if you want to change or embellish, use octave transposition... whatever, you already have the technical aspects together... you choose how you want to perform... as compared to learning a method of how to perform.

Anyway... the same process through Harmonic Minor and melodic Minor.

We could start to work on MM arps... what generally happens after you get the fretboard together, you begin to see and hear common patterns with accents or tonal targets. Most melodies and even when soloing is just that.... Tonal targets and accents with filler or embellishments from implied tonal areas. Those tonal targets are specific notes from a chord. Notes get their character from some type of relationship... a 9th sounds like a 9th because of a relationship.

[NSJ]

I have been trying to work with the big picture. Which is .....


I have been thinking about how arpeggios relate to lines, become part of lines, embellish lines, develop lines, create musical interest within lines . This presupposes that arpeggios by themselves are not lines. Arpeggios by themselves are not Melody, they are not, per se, lyrical playing; rather, they embellish Melody, they develop melody, they make melody more interesting, Arpeggios are the connective tissue of the musical body; they connect and link melodies and bind them together; so the fundamental issue is how they relate to Melody and lyrical playing .

It is not enough just to play arpeggios, but if you learn to play them, you really have to be able to play them fast and seamlessly from any note to any note, not just starting on the root.

I have been musing on what Hal Galper has written about the relationship between slow and fast playing, between melody and embellishment. Melody is fundamental, it relates to slow playing; arpeggios embellish, are fast playing designed spruce up melodies and liven them up.

Both are necessary to make an interesting line.

[matt.guitarteacher]

We could start to work on MM arps... what generally happens after you get the fretboard together, you begin to see and hear common patterns with accents or tonal targets. Most melodies and even when soloing is just that.... Tonal targets and accents with filler or embellishments from implied tonal areas. Those tonal targets are specific notes from a chord. Notes get their character from some type of relationship... a 9th sounds like a 9th because of a relationship.

That would be very cool. I've done 7 positions each on Mm7 and maj7#5 and mostly use them as "general subs" or patterns for MM itself. Would be interested in more specific application of MM for sure....

[Reg]

I have been trying to work with the big picture. Which is .....


I have been thinking about how arpeggios relate to lines, become part of lines, embellish lines, develop lines, create musical interest within lines . This presupposes that arpeggios by themselves are not lines. Arpeggios by themselves are not Melody, they are not, per se, lyrical playing; rather, they embellish Melody, they develop melody, they make melody more interesting, Arpeggios are the connective tissue of the musical body; they connect and link melodies and bind them together; so the fundamental issue is how they relate to Melody and lyrical playing .

It is not enough just to play arpeggios, but if you learn to play them, you really have to be able to play them fast and seamlessly from any note to any note, not just starting on the root.

I have been musing on what Hal Galper has written about the relationship between slow and fast playing, between melody and embellishment. Melody is fundamental, it relates to slow playing; arpeggios embellish, are fast playing designed spruce up melodies and liven them up.

Both are necessary to make an interesting line.

Maybe it's how lines relate to arpeggios...if your going to break down melody... what is a melody, a collection of notes that has some type of meaning. It pretty hard to define how they create feeling. The Hal thing is cool... but melody generally comes down to target notes which have harmonic relationship. You can say that the notes are in relationship to the other notes of the melody... but that is the same thing.

You want to create musical interest... be aware of how the notes relate to the harmony and control the tension/ release, the call and response, all the simple technical aspects of connecting notes.(composition) Which again comes down to the relationship of target notes to a harmony using a rhythmic accent pattern within a functional form.

I believe it's common practice to have your technical applications of skills together on your instrument to be able to perform....but I don't think that the compositional techniques of creating what to play... to create what you like as interesting lines ... comes from the drills.

Many times going through the process of learning drills and performance technique, one learns what one likes, as far as how notes can be organized etc...

Most fast lines break down to the same thing... target notes with relationship to a harmony. Generally the more notes, the more options... which doesn't mean better, but it does generally mean more fun and more choices of how to develop ideas.

[Reg]

Yea Matt... you've probably notice what I like... I always use the top four string 4 note arpeggios almost as a harmonic grace note when I play... for both Maj and MM. They're just the top four strings of my basic position playing thing. But usually more in one of the basic shapes... I'll post a few. I think I did post some arpeggio developments... here's first page... these are with a tonal reference... but the basic application or arpeggio can imply any tonal reference... I basically use with MM in same manor. Like I always... say I'm just playing chords with a target.

[NSJ]

Maybe it's how lines relate to arpeggios...if your going to break down melody... what is a melody, a collection of notes that has some type of meaning. It pretty hard to define how they create feeling. The Hal thing is cool... but melody generally comes down to target notes which have harmonic relationship. You can say that the notes are in relationship to the other notes of the melody... but that is the same thing.

You want to create musical interest... be aware of how the notes relate to the harmony and control the tension/ release, the call and response, all the simple technical aspects of connecting notes.(composition) Which again comes down to the relationship of target notes to a harmony using a rhythmic accent pattern within a functional form.



Most fast lines break down to the same thing... target notes with relationship to a harmony. Generally the more notes, the more options... which doesn't mean better, but it does generally mean more fun and more choices of how to develop ideas.

I just want to clarify that there is no difference in opinion, generally, between what you state and what I have read of Hal Galper .

For him, as he studied earlier jazz, he saw melody as synonymous with "target notes with relationship" (eg, ATTYA symptomatic of this, being mainly thirds with 7ths, usually of a longer notational value, Half notes whole notes, quarter notes ). And the " embellishment" consisted of chromatic and-or stepwise targeting of the same, usually of shorter notational value (8th notes, double time).

OK, on further reflection as I just stumbled on this thread, I realize it's very much a nuts and bolts thing . Perhaps it wasn't right to interject thoughts of the big picture or philosophical conceptions of lines . My bad.

Carry on. sorry,

[Reg]

Thanks Navdeep... but we might be through the nuts and bolts part. At least the organizational aspects. I tend to agree, without the big picture or macro view, the details or micro views... lose perspective.

[NSJ]

OK I just read a whole bunch of thread . Wow.

On a more serious note, would it be accurate to say that conceiving of arpeggios not strictly as Chord tones and extensions be considered a more advanced topic, that is to be developed once the basic fundamentals of arpeggios as chord tones and extensions are internalized ?

For example, arpeggios within the context of modal playing. I watched an Alan Holdsworth master class where he says he just grabs whatever notes you can find with in the key center.

He elucidated no fundamental organizational principles in terms of how he organizes the arpeggios within a Modal format .

In fact, he didn't even bring up the fact that he was playing modally.

When in fact, that was the critical thing: he was playing modally.

That sounds like a more advanced topic right there: how to organize arpeggios in a modal format .

[MarkRhodes]

Yea Matt... you've probably notice what I like... I always use the top four string 4 note arpeggios almost as a harmonic grace note when I play... for both Maj and MM. .

Reg, I'm spending more time with that embellishments page and I like them. Some moves I'm not used to (yet) but they make sense and I'll get 'em down.

[Reg]

Hey Navdeep... yea modal applications of any note usage... should have different organization. Each Mode is different.

The simple explanation is to use the characteristic note(s) of each mode to help create the organization... the organization being how to control harmonic movement... function. The basic approach has been taught via the Berklee organization.

But there are a few other methods and also other notes to include in that style of approach for organizing function which implies different modes and how harmonic motion can work with relationship to specific modes.

Hey Mark... cool, those simple little arpeggio patterns or licks.... can really help your soloing and help slow down chord progressions. If you take the time to get the basic four patterns down...and be aware of what the other notes can be to spell variations of the chord ... the complete chord etc...

Maj7
Min7
Dom7
-7b5

They cover almost all harmonic references... once you get the patterns down, again just like basic fingering etc... you can use them to help give harmonic reference to any target note... you want. Again you can add any other note(s) you choose, to imply any chord. So when your soloing and adding chords, notes, embellishments... whatever... you use those licks to help give more harmonic info for what your trying to create with your solo. You don't have to play a scale or spell with chord tones etc... because the actual note your using in your solo as a target... is already shaped by the lick to imply what the reference is... what chord the target note is implying.

[diminix]

Reg,

I’m a little shocked at how complicated this very basic concept seems to be.

I am sorry, didn’t want to shock anybody. We are in the Getting started section of this forum, and I am trying to get started on jazz guitar. Most likely I am overthinking that matter... But I am a self learner, sitting at the end of the world, almost. There are no old jazz cats around, sitting on their front porches, showing noobs the way how to play, like it used to be in America's good old times.

It’s only complicated because your trying to have the organization show you what and how to perform the notes. The organization is just showing you what the diatonic notes to any tonal reference are on the fretboard. [...] And what you play in that position... isn’t telling you what to play... it’s just a possible fingering of the notes in that area of the fretboard with a tonal relationship.

That’s adressing a fundamental distortion in my point of view. I should print it out and glue it to the top of my music stand. From my readings in this thread of the last few days I am drawing the conclusion, that I want to know the fretboard as good as possible.

I can see now, that my way of thinking about the learning of jazz is very German, in a tradition of trailblazers like Kant, Hegel, Fichte, kind of deductive. I am expecting to have a general overview, a complete theory of the serveyed matter, and than I am going to deduce the special, empirical (guess I shouldn’t try write about philosophical stuff in a foreign language I am not profitient in). Obviously, there is no closed, complete model for learning jazz. The way to has to be more inductive, collect certain empirical blocks and let them grow together as a whole. One of these blocks should be mastery of the mechanical implications of the instrument. Right now the instrument feels strange, I am disoriented, lost. It is like walking through a swamp, I know there are stepstones, but I can’t see them, I am blindfolded. Trying to play something off a lead sheet is a lot of guesswork and half step counting, starting from few known areas of the fretboard. So I will try to invest more time into building a foundation for that. And I am going to do that uncoupled from the idea I get again and again from books and online media, that noodling fingerings up and down endlessly will someday magically turn into great improvised music. Solving these problems are another inductive block...

But the way to approach practicing.... Play all 7 patterns, (or whatever pattern you choose to use), usually start with Gmaj. (Guitar friendly), anyway play all seven patterns through 12 frets... Don’t worry about the key... just get the patterns and fingerings down. This would just be a physical drill. not musical etc...

Once you get the patterns together and begin to see and feel them blend together... now start more musical drills.

Allright, that might take a lot of time, if I can manage it at all. I’ll see, in between there will be questions for sure...

Robert

---

Edit: Forgot to thank you for the huge patience in explaining these things again and again. And thanks to matt and Vladan for inducing my change of view. And thanks to Mr. Pocket for offering fukushima parts from the American shore. We have these Belgian crap reactors ninety miles from here, where the wind is coming from most of the time. If we (Germans mainly) are not going to pay massively for leaving them off the grid, they will go back to operation soon. In the future that might give me more parts than I would like to care for...

[MarkRhodes]

I can see now, that my way of thinking about the learning of jazz is very German, in a tradition of trailblazers like Kant, Hegel, Fichte, kind of deductive. I am expecting to have a general overview, a complete theory of the serveyed matter, and than I am going to deduce the special, empirical (guess I shouldn’t try write about philosophical stuff in a foreign language I am not profitient in). Obviously, there is no closed, complete model for learning jazz. The way to has to be more inductive, collect certain empirical blocks and let them grow together as a whole. One of these blocks should be mastery of the mechanical implications of the instrument. Right now the instrument feels strange, I am disoriented, lost.

I appreciate the references to German philosophy...
As for being lost, we all start out that way. I wish I had had the scales / arps Reg has shown here when I was starting out. Mind you, I was a kid then and might not have made full use of them. (One reason I suspect this is that I didn't make fulll use of the material I was shown.) But I think Reg's way will take less time than any other I know of because it is so very consistent. He really is showing how to see the neck as a large grid. For years, I had no idea how helpful that such knowledge could be.

[diminix]

I appreciate the references to German philosophy...

;-)

But I think Reg's way will take less time than any other I know of because it is so very consistent. He really is showing how to see the neck as a large grid. For years, I had no idea how helpful that such knowledge could be.

I was thinking like that for quite a time. Intellectually, I can see it clearly, especially after drawing the diagrams, switching around the dots from pitches to relative note names. But it is something different on the guitar itself, to have it ingrained into the automatic parts of body and mind (like driving a car without thinking, which is an example I read here about so often).

Until recently, I was rather hopeless, that this is going to happen for me. That changed a bit... Like you, I have enrolled to the Zellon bebop class (x-mas gift for myself). Module 2 opened for me some three weeks ago, and I am going up and down patterns 1, 4 and 5 with approach tones and neighbouring notes in the circular ways we are told to do. In the last few days the faintest feeling is growing in me that something amazing started to happen. Like I have told in another thread before, if I try to improvise (better: noodle) anything, nothing is going to happen, I just stare at my fingers, and they don't move. Now, with these arpeggios and circular movements my fingers are moving! Quite laughable for anybody who can play guitar, but not for me. Suddenly, I can play some basic blues chords into my looper and start to spit out notes to that backing track that do not sound awful in relation to the underlying harmony. There is a kind of melodic flow already, repetitive and faulty, but there is something growing... A little wonder! Last night I was practicing these things, and I realized that in some patterns (like 7/6/7 > 5 > 3/2/3 > 1 >..., you know what I mean) I can feel errors I make in the lower octave. This is mavelous! I can hear and feel that I am doing something wrong, without thinking: Have I been on the 3? Stepped down to the 2 and went back to the 3? I do the error, but feel it instantaneously that it is wrong. Something started to mov from an intellectual process to automatic. Just a tiny step, but that gives me hope for more, and pushed back my despair that for me the way to make music with the guitar is blocked completely...

Robert

[MarkRhodes]

;-)



I was thinking like that for quite a time. Intellectually, I can see it clearly, especially after drawing the diagrams, switching around the dots from pitches to relative note names. But it is something different on the guitar itself, to have it ingrained into the automatic parts of body and mind (like driving a car without thinking, which is an example I read here about so often).

Until recently, I was rather hopeless, that this is going to happen for me. That changed a bit... Like you, I have enrolled to the Zellon bebop class (x-mas gift for myself). Module 2 opened for me some three weeks ago, and I am going up and down patterns 1, 4 and 5 with approach tones and neighbouring notes in the circular ways we are told to do. In the last few days the faintest feeling is growing in me that something amazing started to happen... completely...

I know that feeling! I feel that too. Now I'm struggling with balancing work with Richie's material and Reg's fingerings / embellishments. It's tough to work on both at the same time.