-
Hey everyone! Really happy to join this site. I'm a guitarist with a good 20 odd years experience playing guitar. I'm mainly a metal/shred player, but now starting in learning jazz right from the basics and could really do with some guidance and help/advice. I'm really into the Jazz/Fusion style and also smooth jazz like George Benson, Norman Brown. Any advice on which jazz, jazz/fusion guitar players/artists to check out? Not just in Jazz/Fusion, Smooth Jazz style but Jazz in general.
Also any books you guys/girls could recommend for me to learn from? Also any practice tips in what to practice at this stage? At the moment I'm going through 9th, 11th and 13th chords and did some chord substitutions the other day aswell as spending a lot of time learning arpeggios so I can create a road map of arpeggios to make targetting easier when playing over changes. The Jazz Guitar Chord ebook is really good too, especially where it talks about constructing chords from scratch, so been doing some of that too.
Any advice or help would be much appreciated. Thanks!
-
01-08-2016 10:52 PM
-
Don't abandon your chops. A lot of people are going to tell you "less is more"... in a sense, it's true, but not really. You'll need those chops to play more up tempo stuff, and to create interest. Work on your phrasing, because that's the main difference between metal and jazz. A good transition for metal guys is Allan Holdsworth. Particularly his records Sixteen Men of Tain, All Night Wrong, and None Too Soon (which actually is mostly standards and jazz tunes). A lot of jazz guys are emulating that phrasing nowadays, the whole legato thing.
Going back, you should also check out saxophonists. Bird, obviously. I'm really huge about Sonny Rollins, his whole phrasing, rhythm, and time thing. Sonny Stitt. Coltrane would be cool for you to check out to adapt your shred thing into his lines.
As far as what to learn, scale it back a bit. First make sure you have your triads down. The more playing I do the more I realize how basic triads can sound better than seventh chords. Arpeggios, arpeggio patterns (not just 1357). Scale and scale patterns. Practice moving between different keys with these things, doing harmonic cycles, etc.
Lastly, I'd recommend getting a strong teacher, maybe as much of a straight ahead player as you can find, someone that can really take you out of your comfort zone.
-
I can't second jtizzle's triad suggestion enough. I sort of accidentally learned triads when I was really young. I didn't know what they were. It was 10 years later when I started studying jazz and had one my first jazz guitar instructors ask me if I could play my triads that I realized what I knew was rare. The look of surprise on his face was very telling.
He and I spent a lot of time talking about applying triads. I thought I'd pretty much run the course with triads over the next 10-15 years until I began working on my masters degree. There I got to study with some incredible NYC guys. All of them affected me deeply in different ways. One in particular brought me back to triads in a way I'd never fully considered. I'd heard the idea of upper structure triads talked about, and I even 'used' them... or so I thought. But he essentially developed his entire harmonic and melodic vocabulary around them.
Since finishing the program, I have essentially committed myself back to the triad again. This time in a far more intense and deep way. Other than learning tunes, practicing odd times, and practicing reading, there's basically nothing else I do in my shed. I'm about 25 years into this whole guitar thing, and I pretty much have the next 5-10 years of things I plan to work on mapped out for myself... and it's essentially triads.
So yeah... I'm right there with jtizz on that one. They are so musical and malleable. They can fit into any situation and can make the simplest thing sound complex or the most complex thing sound simple. They're just little magical beings for me. So yeah, if you're not really comfortable with triads, I would definitely say spend some time making sure you can play them all over the fretboard, in single notes arpeggios and in the full 3-note version - both closed position (all within one octave) and open position (the middle note has been jumped up or down an octave so the notes spread out larger than the span of an octave).
I would also recommend to learn jazz standards. You should be able to 'comp' the chords and play the melody... and you should be able to do that without reading the page. Memorize the tune. It's very helpful to listen to the tune and know what it really sounds like. If you've never heard it before and are trying to memorize it, that makes it harder. If you're up for the challenge, it can also be worth trying to arrange a simple chord melody for the tune, where you're playing the melody and the chords at the same time.
As well as Holdsworth, you may want to check out Ben Monder and Kurt Rosenwinkel.
Good luck man! And have fun with it!
-
Listen, listen, listen, listen to as much you can.
And not just guitarists -- the reality is that the overwhelming majority of best and important jazz musicians were NOT guitar players.
Just start somewhere, any generic "best jazz albums ever" list will be a good starting point.
People here will chime in with good advice, I'm sure, but it won't help unless you really get the sound of this music in your ears.
-
The path I have been put on and it is working (so this is from a fellow cross over player) - transcribe transcribe transcribe. I am having so much fun transcribing stuff like Grant Green, Chet Baker. Just finished a Gilad Hekselman head March of the Sad Ones, Sandu by Clifford Brown and now doing Driftin Herbie Hancock and Scratch George Benson that is lots of jazz blues. You will find out, if you have not already, it is not just about the notes the rhythm and feel of these guys are amazing.
It is scary how many books I have wasted money on but the following is a standout, the rest a waste of money, for me anyway, this is a ripper for repetitive drills so, really ingrains playing over a II V I in one position (as well as his blues and minor ii v i ebooks) by the end you are playing approach notes in the right places without even thinking about it just like using an adjective in a sentence you will know, hear and sing the sounds.
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Ch.../dp/1480208248
As you are a competent guitarist I would stay away from jazz books and tab of famous players. Get out your ears, purchase the amazing Slow Downer and work it out yourself, like the masters did.
but I would read, I think it is important to really immerse yourself. I highly recommend the Miles Davis Autobiography and also the colossal (I am halfway through) Thinking in Jazz Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation by Paul F. Berliner ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists and the stunning Jazz Life http://www.amazon.com/Jazzlife-Willi.../dp/3822830666 as well as a book called But Beautiful.
There are some great video lessons on you tube with the masters, here you go:
part 1 Bill Evans
part 1 Barney Kessell
The above is a good 12 months of work. I was going nowhere and was put on this path. I now feel as though I am playing jazz. No where near competent but I have had 3 requests this week to do auditions for small groups.
Happy new year SuperShredder.
PS Also read the threads around hear, especially anything Jordan posts as well as some of the other guys.
-
I don't know... I think I'm a bit too verbose tripleG!
haha
Congrats on the audition requests man! That's great! You deserve it, I know you've been working hard. And well worth pointing out (to the OP) that practicing and listening are both invaluable, but playing with people is so important.
This jazz thing is like a language. Studying it and understanding the grammar and the vocabulary and the phrasing and all that stuff is important... probably even essential. But playing the music with people is like trying to have a conversation with someone in a language you're trying to learn. You'll almost certainly fall on your face a lot in the beginning. But just keep going. It gets easier and you become more fluent.
It's just singin' and dancin'.
-
OK, I'm gonna be the Devil's Advocate, but only because It's advice I wish someone had given me, so make of it what you will...
Essentially, moving from Rock/Blues/Metal/Shred to Jazz is like learning a new language, but that sounds trite, right? Then consider it like this- Rock guys seem to think that once they can shred, playing Jazz is just a matter of learning different "scales" or arpeggios or something. As though just because they can speak English, with a bit of work, they can learn to speak American!
Or even adapting a language say from Spanish to Portugese, if you speak Spanish, then Portugese is within your grasp.
But it's not actually like that, Rock to Jazz is more like going from English to Chinese. It's a completely different language! Just because you can speak using your lips and tongue (technique), doesn't mean you can easily learn any language, right? In fact, it's easier to learn Chinese if you're a child learning it's first language, if you learn English first, it makes it harder (you have to overcome habits...).
Best way to undo years of habitual shredding in that "other" language is to immerse yourself in the language of BOP. It's not a scale, or an arpeggio etude! It's not just a matter of inserting chromatics, it's an entire IDIOM with it's attendant inflections and idiosynchrasies. It's ground zero for any Jazz form (including Fusion), if you don't speak Bop then people argue that you're not really speaking Jazz. If you wanna speak Chinese like a local, then it will take 10 years with a LOT of practice. Jazz (Bop) is no different. Sure you can learn Benson and Martino solos note for note in a few days, but it will most likely take a decade or two to have their vocabulary to draw from so that you can solo against anything and NEVER repeat yourself (unless you want to...).
I always get forum members deriding me for being too harsh and discouraging for these kinds of responses, but if you're aiming high, the sooner you realise how big the Jazz mountain really is, the better!
Happy trails!
-
I would say listen and transcribe as much as you can. You need to learn the language, in particular check out the rhythms and the phrasing.
Good luck!
-
@ Princeplanet
For one thimg I'm sure, I can not learn Benson's, or Martino's solo just like that, in a day, or two, if I can learn them at all. Maybe a lick or couple, but whole solos, several minutes long, ..., I'd like to see that being done effortlessly and in numbers, as proposed. Just visit Practical Standards thread and see what it takes and how it sound in real life, done by average guys, with occasional and very rare glimpse of genius.
-
No, really, some technique and a good ear will see a decent rock/blues/metal player playing full choruses of even reasonably difficult jazz solos in days, note for note. Big deal. Some guys can even read transcribed solos cold. That's a slightly bigger deal. But neither is what Jazz is about, as we all know.
Originally Posted by Vladan
It takes most of us decades to be great improvisors, that's what all this fuss is about, right?
-
Ditto on the above post re: rhythm and phrasing. Metal/Shred playing is great for what it is but is, imo, weak in those areas. Or at least diametrically opposed to straight ahead jazz concepts. More in common with fusion, for sure.
-
My ears suck, technique does too, may be even more so, not a secret,
but I'd still to see, even the best single line players I'm aware of on this forum,
take Martino's solo from cold and play it at reasinable level,
so they would not mind the result beimg published,
in a day, or two.
Maybe 24 - 48 hours of effective preparation is a closer figure to the actual
state of affairs? In my case that woild equal to couple of months.
-
Welcome to the dark side! LOL
Seriously though, I'd look for lessons with some local university jazz prof.
Nothing like a living person to help you sort through the mountain of information that is jazz!
-
If you can afford it, try Jimmy Brunos approach for three months or more. (20 bucks a month)
Much better than ANY book in my humble opinion. I have several jazz books, but nothing has helped me more in understanding how to play jazz than Brunos way of teaching
Learn Jazz Guitar | Jimmy Bruno Guitar Workshop
Search for Jimmy Bruno on youtube, and watch his video of him explaining some of his thoughts on playing:
-
I, by no means, am as accomplished as a lot of people here, but I recommend resisting the temptation to bend notes. Obviously there are instances in jazz when a guitarist can bend a note, but for the most part that type of embellishment isn't the most appropriate way to carry a line. Maybe not for shredders, but for rock and blues, bending notes is a well established prominent technique.
-
John McLaughlin - This is The Way I Do It.
AbstractLogix :: Instructional videos :: John McLaughlin: This is the Way I do it (3 DVD Set) ** ON SALE
-
Tunes tunes tunes......
-
Listening:
Post bop, hard bop, etc. players to listen to; Wes, Benson, Martino, Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Stan Getz, John Coltrane (yes!), Miles Davis, Check Corea, Herbie Hancok, Keith Jarrett, Sony Rollins.
Listen to RealJazz on SiriusXM - outstanding, really!
Guitar and Improv studies:
I think that the Bruno site idea above is good.
Some books for bop and post bop improv: Joseph Alexander's books, Garrison Fewell's books, Corey Christiansen's series on "Essential Jazz Lines: In the Style of", and I will repeat the recommendation for McLaughlin's course.
If you have the moolah - Berklee Online. Certificate or individual courses. I've done both. You will be held accountable by this system and that really helps non-music majors who have another life and all the distractions that come with it. World class!Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-10-2016 at 04:15 PM.
-
I have to admit that I'm trying to adhere to this in my jazz guitar journey (though no one has ever communicated this to me). Originally Posted by lammie200
-
Well, one way to start getting your head around the Jazz rhythmic differences would be to learn some songs with the guitar as accompaniment. Benson's great for that, also this little-known Kiwi guitarist, Andrew London:
and
-
Originally Posted by supershredder
Listen and transcribe some Charlie Christian, some Wes,etc..then a few horn solos by Bird, Brownie, Coltrane - anything and anybody you like..it doesn't have to be a whole solo - can be a few phrases, one chorus etc that you love..but the key is to do transcribe it yourself so your ear gets training..sing the phrase you hear and work it out on the instrument with fingerings that are logical to you...you won't get the same learning experience from a book with the solos already written out for you..
..then analyse the hell out of what you transcribe..then absorb language make it your own..
No need to waste money on books, online courses, etc, when you can learn direct from the masters through transcribing!
and obviously play with other and learn tunes..
-
No better advice than this. Find some guitar heros and eventually learn how they do things. It is the BEST way to learn the language. Its how we all learned to talk as little kids! Originally Posted by christianm77
Have fun with this wonderful music.
-
In addition to all the other advice above.
If your wanted to get started on some jazz guitar licks and phrasing this would be an excellent book/CD to have:
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Guitar-Et.../dp/0976615371
-
Listen all day.
You'll figure it out.
-
As someone who has been mostly playing rock and blues, and only really recently started taking a more dedicated approach towards learning 'jazz' guitar, this is what has helped:
1) Forget what you already know.
I stopped trying to make scales and modes fit, and trying to work around these to make them more 'jazzy'.
I've stripped everything to the absolute basics and have accepted that I am a 'beginner' again.
One of the things that has really helped a lot is looking at the most common variations such as II V I and I VI II V7 for example, identifying where the root notes are for each chord, and then working on the arpeggios for those chords.
It seems to me, that chord shapes and arpeggios are far more important than scales in Jazz.
Maybe I am stating the obvious.
Gradually, after nailing the arpeggios, I work on them over the relevant chord changes just using two strings, then three strings, etc and looking at getting comfortable with as many iterations within those limited areas. Then, as I have become more comfortable, I have gradually expanded to look at different positions on the neck.
This has really helped to get me to 'intuitively' know where to resolve the notes. Of course, it's not just intuition, but practice.
I practice at an hour a day minimum just on the arpeggios and working on the above. It has really really helped.
I have now gradually started adding in chromaticisms to give things a bit more of a jazzy 'feel'.
2) After practicing the above, I jam along to the relevant pieces/backing tracks. This is great practice in itself, and also really good fun, especially where it becomes clear that your work is actually resulting in something 'musical'.
I give myself a bit more free reign when jamming/improving as although I will still use the arpeggios as the basis of what I am playing, I'll just play what I feel is going to sound right - often licks I have heard elsewhere, or practiced, or something entirely improvised on the spot.
3) I listen to a lot of jazz. In fact, guitar related jazz is only about 10% of the jazz I listen to. Listening to lots of Trumpet and Sax stuff is quite educational. I think it translates really well to the guitar.
4) I try and transcribe what I can (within my limitations). The transcribing is such a valuable lesson in itself.
Probably the most important of the above is knowing that I am a 'beginner' and re-learning my approach to playing.
This has really helped. The chord/arpeggio study has been invaluable in my experience thus far. It's still early days though, and am about 1% on my way to becoming in any way proficient, but I'm happy with the progress I'm making using the above approach.
Reply With Quote
dearmond 1100 reissue vs original which one is...
Today, 03:30 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos