Have you been struggling to get to a basic performance level?

**JakeAcci** · 12-11-2015, 12:12 PM

No, it's not an infomercial!

Just curious about different people's processes and perceived roadblocks.

There are a lot of great players here who gig regularly, but I'm curious, is anybody here somebody who has been practicing or studying for a while but feels like they still can't put together a nice solo over a standard? Feel stuck on some element or two? Feel like, for the amount of time you're putting in, you "should" be progressing more?

I thought this could be a cool idea for a thread for a few reasons:

#1. Maybe some people who aren't progressing but have been shy to ask questions may come forward and receive help

#2. The teachers and more advanced players here can see some of the struggles that people are having trying to get it together which will give some insight to different teaching methods. Sometimes when you've been playing/teaching for decades you can get extremely out of touch with what "beginners" actually need to move forward, and what it feels like to be stuck.

Thoughts? Step right up?

**Reg** · 12-11-2015, 12:33 PM

Hey Jake,
Good Idea for thread. Nice to get back to forum and also see your around.

I'll help as much as I can...

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 01:24 PM

Nice thread.

I gig regularly but I'm no great player. I sing as well as play; I'm not much of a singer, but I'm a better singer than guitarist.

I know what I want to play, but I don't do it because I can't - my chops aren't up to scratch (yet). Guitar performance, for me, has been a bit like the club Groucho Marx talked about.

I'm struggling to know the fretboard as well as I know a piano keyboard (which is what I use to study harmony and for ear training). Poor fretboard knowledge is what led me to use the keyboard for ear training - and it became a habit. It's a bit ironic that I have zero keyboard chops, yet I can read music and target very specific sounds. I can't say the same of my guitar playing.

But I haven't been idle; I've been working on technique, and I've taken steps to get help.

I'm an experienced teacher (languages), and I'm hopeful that I'll be able to use the guitar to do the same work as I've done on my ears, i.e. to develop core musical vocabulary and independent listening skills. I currently half-guess everything on guitar.

In all honesty, I believe that most of what I need has to do with thinking and 'data' (rather than 'motor') skills and practice. More time would be nice, too...

**JakeAcci** · 12-11-2015, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I'm struggling to know the fretboard as well as I know a piano keyboard (which is what I use to study harmony and for ear training).

...

In all honesty, I believe that most of what I need has to do with thinking and 'data' (rather than 'motor') skills and practice. More time would be nice, too...

Awesome! Could you be more specific about the fretboard?

For example, is it:

#1. In one key, you struggle to connect the key all over the fretboard?

#2. You feel like you can play over a key center, but not shifting key centers?

#3. You know the keys pretty well and can shift/modulate, but not modes or arpeggios?

#4. You know arpeggios and modes pretty well, but you struggle to find the right notes to "make the changes"?

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Awesome! Could you be more specific about the fretboard?

For example, is it:

#1. In one key, you struggle to connect the key all over the fretboard?

#2. You feel like you can play over a key center, but not shifting key centers?

#3. You know the keys pretty well and can shift/modulate, but not modes or arpeggios?

#4. You know arpeggios and modes pretty well, but you struggle to find the right notes to "make the changes"?

I think it's mostly #1 & #2 .

Thanks - feels like an 'aha!' moment... I think a big part of my problem might be knowing and fingering intervals on the fretboard).

**JakeAcci** · 12-11-2015, 01:50 PM

For #1, connecting a key over the entire fretboard, what methods have you tried so far and how much time have you given them?

**mr. beaumont** · 12-11-2015, 02:08 PM

Agree, a great thread, and I'd participate, but I'm pretty sure all of my shortcomings can be traced back to laziness/inefficient use of the little time I have to practice...

**docbop** · 12-11-2015, 02:08 PM

I started three different replies and deleted them. I think this is going to be an interesting thread and will let it play out some and see if I have anything worth bringing to the discussion.

**JakeAcci** · 12-11-2015, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

I started three different replies and deleted them. I think this is going to be an interesting thread and will let it play out some and see if I have anything worth bringing to the discussion.

Replies to destinydot or replies to my original post?

**docbop** · 12-11-2015, 02:20 PM

Your original post. I'd write a LONG reply then re-read the original post and decide I was going a different direction and thought best not to side track.

**JakeAcci** · 12-11-2015, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

Your original post. I'd write a LONG reply then re-read the original post and decide I was going a different direction and thought best not to side track.

Regarding help for yourself* or just comments on the concept in general?

*I don't mean to imply you are a struggling player - I definitely have no memory of hearing you play.

**mrcee** · 12-11-2015, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

For #1, connecting a key over the entire fretboard, what methods have you tried so far and how much time have you given them?

I personally feel that knowing the fretboard (the names of every note) is of paramount importance. Without that a person will rarely be much of a jazz guitarist. And with that to play scales along the whole length of the neck. eg. in the key of G play smoothly from the 3rd fret on the low E string to the 15th fret on the high E. It seems basic but it's surprising how many pretty decent players don't have this ability. The nature of the guitar is to be position oriented but it can be good to get away from that and have the whole neck under your fingers and to be able to play Along the neck and not just Across it.

**diminix** · 12-11-2015, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I gig regularly but I'm no great player. I sing as well as play; I'm not much of a singer, but I'm a better singer than guitarist.

I know what I want to play, but I don't do it because I can't - my chops aren't up to scratch (yet). Guitar performance, for me, has been a bit like the club Groucho Marx talked about.

I'm struggling to know the fretboard [...]

Mike,

with all due respect, I think you're not entitled to raise your hand in response to the question "Have you been struggling to get to a basic performance level?" *. In some other thread you posted this:

Basic performance level is not an issue here. This is way beyond! From my jazzwise unknowing point of view that performance is just perfect. Pure fun to listen to, great comping, very aware towards your fellow musicians, wonderful singing, nicely scatted little solo. You did justice to this style of music as good as possible. And by the way, what a joy to here some trombone in an over-saxophonized world!

Robert

* Of course I don't think that you shouldn't contribute to this thread, all this said with a twinkle in my eye. I am sure that one is never confident about his abilities, whatever level has been achieved. So I understand that your still looking ahead. But from the beginners point of view, you've gone a long way...

**docbop** · 12-11-2015, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Regarding help for yourself* or just comments on the concept in general?

*I don't mean to imply you are a struggling player - I definitely have no memory of hearing you play.

My playing is up and down last year or so for various reasons that I don't want to whine about. But hearing me play you haven't and it's one of the constant issues with my online teacher. Weird because in the past I did do some studio work, but over the years I've developed a HORRIBLE case of "Red Light Fever" as we'd call it in the old days. I can have something all worked out and practiced and as soon as I hit record everything falls apart. I'm the same way with tests, know the topic inside out, but give me a test and it all goes away. I am trying to force myself to record more so I can get back comfortable doing it again. See I'm whining and didn't want to.

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

For #1, connecting a key over the entire fretboard, what methods have you tried so far and how much time have you given them?

Mostly arpeggio across octaves and ear. I know how I intend/expect the note to sound, and I use my ear for a reference.

I can name the notes quite quickly - a bit like the way people can recite the alphabet or count without being able to spell or simple mental arithmetic - but I hear melody. I know my ears are pretty quick, and I have a lot to say on guitar if only I could get my lines out.

Thank you for calling me to account.

Since starting this I've arranged - as of Sunday - to use a magnetic whiteboard on a stand, draw a fretboard with a marker, use sets of coloured magnets (representing note positions), place a fretboard next to the keyboard, have manuscript paper and pencil + eraser at the ready, and making connections.

I'm also going to follow the process mrcee describes.

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by diminix

Mike,

with all due respect, I think you're not entitled to raise your hand in response to the question "Have you been struggling to get to a basic performance level?" *. In some other thread you posted this:

Basic performance level is not an issue here. This is way beyond! From my jazzwise unknowing point of view that performance is just perfect. Pure fun to listen to, great comping, very aware towards your fellow musicians, wonderful singing, nicely scatted little solo. You did justice to this style of music as good as possible. And by the way, what a joy to here some trombone in an over-saxophonized world!

Robert

* Of course I don't think that you shouldn't contribute to this thread, all this said with a twinkle in my eye. I am sure that one is never confident about his abilities, whatever level has been achieved. So I understand that your still looking ahead. But from the beginners point of view, you've gone a long way...

I have a lot to say in response, but I hope just thanks will be enough. You're right about confidence. On a prosaic level, regarding the fretboard, I mostly struggle with simply finding notes (rather than fingering them). I think you have to make your own map.

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I want to throw out this bit of reality that needs to be accepted. There is virtually nobody out there that has the time or ability to maintain advanced gigging level jazz chops that isn't gigging very, very, regularly. Johnny Smith couldn't do it, you can't do it....and if you understand why, you won't feel so bad about your "performance level chops".

While there is no substitute for the woodshed, it is NOT a substitute for the bandstand, never has been, never will be. An hour on the bandstand is worth at least

Absolutely. I decided to work so that I can play. Usually three times a week. And I have a strategy that's been about crafting different sets of repertoire and working on different projects*.

In my case, the nearest I get to the woodshed is locking myself in the building at work while others go out every Wednesday & Friday lunchtime (which in Spain, despite the erosion of the traditional siesta, is about three hours). This is because I had some great advice which I took to heart: never, ever use charts on a gig. I took that literally, though - looking back - I think it was about Real Book-type lead sheets (rather than written arrangements). But it means I've got used to memorising lyrics and melodies. I've just started analysing melodies and disregarding given chord symbols.

*Another problem is making sure people get paid an amount that's commensurate with the service they provide. My project for 2016 is to take out the middle person. I've tested out an idea, and it worked. rry if that's off topic.

**cosmic gumbo** · 12-11-2015, 03:43 PM

After more than adequate time in the woodshed, if you don't progress to the bandstand to take it to the next level, it's almost impossible to find enough hours in the week to practice at a level that will be a substitute for the bandstand experience.

Firefighters can train extensively for fighting fires, but there is absolutely no substitute for what you learn from fighting real fires....

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 04:12 PM

I'd like to add two things.

Firstly, that I get good vibes from everyone on this thread, which matters because I really can't stand what I think of as low-level bullying. I can give as good as I get, but that's not the point - which is that nothing of value can get learned in that kind of environment.

The other thing is, if others are struggling and I can help, I'll gladly do so.

**NSJ** · 12-11-2015, 04:23 PM

I feel like this is the year I start to put it together. As someone who did not play guitar as a kid and only came to the instrument in the past few years and whose practice time was always limited due to serious injuries (ranging from getting hit by a car and a truck to breaking a wrist), I completely underestimated the amount of work it takes under the hood.

when I was taking lessons, my teacher always said my intellectual understanding surpassed my bread and butter technical level. What I needed was focus and attention to detail. Anyway, that is the good thing about children-- they don't think, they just do.

He also always said functional fingerboard competence and proficiency was at least a five year process. Minimum. No kidding.

So, the important thing is to not to let the instrument get in the way of making music for me. But the instrument is a beast that takes a long time to tame.

Interesting to see to forma AAJ posters have commented here, "Acci' and "Jeff Smith". That was a cool place.

**55bar** · 12-11-2015, 04:24 PM

I practice loads but just don't get the opportunity to play out because of my theatre gig. For this reason I think my playing will only ever be at bedroom level.

**mrcee** · 12-11-2015, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Mostly arpeggio across octaves and ear. I know how I intend/expect the note to sound, and I use my ear for a reference.

I can name the notes quite quickly - a bit like the way people can recite the alphabet or count without being able to spell or simple mental arithmetic - but I hear melody. I know my ears are pretty quick, and I have a lot to say on guitar if only I could get my lines out.

Thank you for calling me to account.

Since starting this I've arranged - as of Sunday - to use a magnetic whiteboard on a stand, draw a fretboard with a marker, use sets of coloured magnets (representing note positions), place a fretboard next to the keyboard, have manuscript paper and pencil + eraser at the ready, and making connections.

I'm also going to follow the process mrcee describes.

Thanks Mike. And obviously there is more than one way to get from lowest to highest. Any of which will require a person to 'hop' along one string for a few frets. Which isn't something in the typical player's comfort zone, but will help develop the ability to move between positions seemlessly. I was once showing a beginning guitar player the basic major scale. Two octaves Across the strings in one 4 fret position. A bass player interrupted us and suggested this other way. Another time another bass player, listening to me play a scaler exercise in a given position, suggested something similar. Bass players because of the limitations of a 4 string instrument need to think and play in terms of Along the neck. Joe Pass and Pat Martino are masters of this and always have a chord handy for wherever they happen to be on the neck.

And in response to the title of this thread, it's all about developing confidence. I watch great old school Country singers who also strum cowboy chords, and marvel at how smooth and musical their guitar playing is. They are using a limited palette but they absolutely Own what they're playing. It's better to play something simple with complete confidence and musicality than to struggle playing something more complicated.

And also your guitar playing's very good and your singing is great.

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I feel like this is the year I start to put it together. As someone who did not play guitar as a kid and only came to the instrument in the past few years and whose practice time was always limited due to serious injuries (ranging from getting hit by a car and a truck to breaking a wrist), I completely underestimated the amount of work it takes under the hood.

when I was taking lessons, my teacher always said my intellectual understanding surpassed my bread and butter technical level. What I needed was focus and attention to detail. Anyway, that is the good thing about children-- they don't think, they just do.

He also always said functional fingerboard competence and proficiency was at least a five year process. Minimum. No kidding.

So, the important thing is to not to let the instrument get in the way of making music for me. But the instrument is a beast that takes a long time to tame.

Interesting to see to forma AAJ posters have commented here, "Acci' and "Jeff Smith". That was a cool place.

I'd just like to say that I really enjoy your posts and your theoretical explanations. I hope to learn from you.

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by 55bar

I practice loads but just don't get the opportunity to play out because of my theatre gig. For this reason I think my playing will only ever be at bedroom level.

Love your lines, man. What's your theatre gig? (I've done a bit of musical theatre.)

destinytot · 12-11-2015, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by mrcee

Thanks Mike. And obviously there is more than one way to get from lowest to highest. Any of which will require a person to 'hop' along one string for a few frets. Which isn't something in the typical player's comfort zone, but will help develop the ability to move between positions seemlessly. I was once showing a beginning guitar player the basic major scale. Two octaves Across the strings in one 4 fret position. A bass player interrupted us and suggested this other way. Another time another bass player, listening to me play a scaler exercise in a given position, suggested something similar. Bass players because of the limitations of a 4 string instrument need to think and play in terms of Along the neck. Joe Pass and Pat Martino are masters of this and always have a chord handy for wherever they happen to be on the neck.

And in response to the title of this thread, it's all about developing confidence. I watch great old school Country singers who also strum cowboy chords, and marvel at how smooth and musical their guitar playing is. They are using a limited palette but they absolutely Own what they're playing. It's better to play something simple with complete confidence and musicality than to struggle playing something more complicated.

And also your guitar playing's very good and your singing is great.

Thanks, man. Confidence. "Be still and know..."