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Cool story.
I think this thread is to find some solutions to get to a "basic level of performance".
Here is a 20 year old guitarist that has reached way beyond basic. There is hope. I don't think people are looking for an easy path or fast path but looking to avoid the wrong paths.
If I am 50 now perhaps come 60 I may be at a basic level:
I can't help but think the 4 keys are:
1. a basic understanding of harmony
2. play what you sing (therefore keep it simple, stay in one octave)
3. learn all the sounds in that octave so that you can sing the outside notes when improvising overtime you will naturally add outside the octave and learn the whole neck etc but I cannot see this being the most important objective to play music)
4. write music
It seems all the gun youngsters write their own music. Is this what helps them to learn so quickly - Aaron Parks, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Gilad Hekselman or go back in time George Benson, Herbie Hancock or go further back and ....
By focusing on writing music (could be as simple as throwing away the chord books and coming up with our own chords for a standard) do you get to know the sounds at a deeper level? Can our brain and fingers become one faster than learning 5 fingerings or 7 fingerings or whatever the latest 'teacher' model is?
Is all this focus on fingerings why so many guitarists are such boring improvisers spewing out endless 1/8th notes in umpteen modes rather than a more soulful improviser being able to tell a wonderful story with a lesser vocabulary like a Louis Armstrong an early 60's Benson? Maybe the so called hard work of learning fingerings and modes is actually the easy work?
Where is our man Jordan we need some inspiring light over here.
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12-14-2015 06:46 PM
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I agree with much of what you wrote, particularly with regard to singing with in the octave and so forth. But you seem to take unnecessary pot shots and make Disingenuous claims about linking fingerings to "Souless improvisers".
Originally Posted by gggomez
Let's not fetishize fingerings, the overall goal is to be really comfortable with the instrument so you can make music. Surely you must recognize that piano players have all sorts of fingerings for scales and chords, left and right hand, extensions, compressions, crossing over, crossing under, etc.
They use this as a system to guide them, they don't slavishly onne particular fingering as some magic formula. All it does is it helps them play the piano.
Is the piano player 'souless ' because they use 54321 -co-321 for the LH and 123-cu-12345 For the right hand ?
It's just a way to come to terms with playing the instruments. Same thing with the guitar. Anybody who knows the guitar knows it is one of the most profoundly difficult ones to master .
So please cut out the ridiculous strawman arguments. There are no shortcuts, mostly it's a lot of work. There are no magic fingerings, even if one should have a system or approach on how to manipulate fingerboard.there's nothing wrong with that. In fact anything we can design to make playing the guitar is here, we should use.Last edited by NSJ; 12-14-2015 at 07:37 PM.
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There's any number of ways to get anywhere. We all know that.
So
One simple way to get to a basic performance level is to immediately almost from Day One try and play some sort of songs. Even if it's just one cowboy chord strummed in a specific way that implies or is some sort of composition. The idea is to always try to make music even if it's just playing simple exercises. And apply theoretical concepts or exercises as you need them to develop the songs you're trying to play. This will help to develop a comfortable repertoire. To note the title of the thread, this is basic. But I think this is a good M.O. for even an advanced player.
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Oh yeah!
Some cool rythms and melodies are coming to me for two new songs, The Lament of a Soulless Strawman and the Waltz of the Ridiculous.
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Yes .... tunes ! that and keep the beat Originally Posted by mrcee
I learned this lesson ages ago ...
was at a party and someone got the
guitars out .....
I was trying to play good , ooo clever stuff ,
and this guy started banginout a song and singing ....
man he sounded a hundred times better
than me .... anyone with ears could hear it and feel it in their soul .....
he was a hundred times better
he only knew two chords !
didn't matter a damn, his time feel and
phrasing were great ...
he was putting it out there
banga banga boom
I learned a big lesson that day
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Is there anyway I can like this more than once. Originally Posted by pingu
And keep the beat. You got that right.
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Ok. I know this looks different on your computer, but dude. You're killing it with the return key across other devices. Originally Posted by pingu
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I know lots of pretty soulless Pianists, horn players, drummers, singers, lawyers, chefs, and candle stick makers. Originally Posted by NSJ
Fingerings are nothing to do with soul in playing. If you have nothing to say, learning countless fingerings, patterns and scales will only give you more facility to say nothing.
On the flip side though.... If you do have something to say.
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In Glasgow, Scotland we have, off the top of my head.. 5 weekly jams. It's not all kilts, braveheart and haggis here haha! Some unbelievable players too, and a lot of younger guys who are just proactive dudes, who approach venues, and promote their nights off their own backs. They make it happen, it's inspiring Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Last edited by AndrewPat; 12-15-2015 at 07:54 AM.
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I started learning to play jazz in 1982, I remember because that's when I started work and could afford to buy my Gibson. I don't think I really felt much good about my jazz playing until about 2000. So it took almost 20 years. Admittedly, in that time I also had job, career moves, house moves, raising a family etc. going on too. So there wasn't much time for hours of practice (well only for a few years, before I got married!). But I did do a bit nearly every day. Originally Posted by EDS
Also I was self-taught and I did not really use books much, mainly I copied things off records and figured out how they worked. Maybe that was a slow method, I don't know.
So I think it can take a damn long time. It's probably best to just keep going regardless, and enjoy the journey of discovery rather than agonise over 'will I ever be as good as X?'
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Learning to play scales in different positions is not the hard work! That, I would have thought, is just the beginning... Originally Posted by gggomez
Learning to play hundreds of bits of language, devices. patterns etc - in every position (and therefor every key, right?)- now that's some serious "grunt work" that few have the patience to do. That actually frees you from the set fingerings, because the fingering becomes secondary to the idea. Ever seen a great piano player transpose a difficult head in different keys trying to find a suitable key (usually for someone else's sake)? They can do it easily only because they have put in the hard yards of mastering all the ways to finger the notes they want in every key. And they do, they work stuff out in 12 keys, yup, it's a grind but the best cats do it.
On guitar, I do all my essential (to me anyway) material in 5 positions. Not just scales and arps, but lines, devices, vocab etc... That's less work than piano players do, and that gives you 5 ways to play in every key. Sure, it's still 5 times harder than learning to play in just one position, but it's 5 x more powerful and 5 x more rewarding. It takes longer and is frustrating because you feel as though you miss out on making music along the way, but Wayne Shorter would always say that he always practiced something he couldn't play, never what he could. (OK OK, he was gigging at the same time and I'm not
, but you get my point...).
Don't Sitar players have to study for 16 years before they can perform in public?
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Hey Seanz... By organized, I mean have your time divided and organized to help accomplish what you want.
I separate technical BS from performance BS.
The technical material would include all your physical aspects of playing.
The performance aspects are the actual performance of music and the skills of making music. Using your technical skills.
Example could be... I made choices of how I wanted to play, what fingerings chords etc... I decided on fingerings back when I was a kid, the 7 position system... this was after classical lessons....
Anyway I would always have a day, week, month and yearly schedule with goals and just adjusted as needed.
Most practice started with technical practice... 1234 and all the different patterns would be laid out over a time frame, chromatic exercise, scales, arpeggios, chords, sight reading etc... I always did lots of non playing organization and planning trying to understand what, how and why... there was no internet etc...
I generally world then move on to applying these techniques to tunes and different grooves. I use to play with the radio and recordings also... ear training. I've always played lots of gigs...and would if possible use practice material at performances.
This was a long time ago... After a while... I just didn't need to practice anymore... occasionally I would run into something new or want to physically bring my chops up... so would basically just play whatever at faster tempos to keep the brain, ears and hands connected etc... I've always composed music... always, all the time... most never ends up anywhere.
I've always tried to have my playing reflect Me... so how I perform is natural, not memorized. I forget tunes... but generally can logically figure most out quickly. The other detail... I sight read well, and understand music, this has always help me more than memorizing tunes or practicing.
I've always accepted that I have standard talent and skills and just moved on... I still get it.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Learning to play scales in different positions is not the hard work! That, I would have thought, is just the beginning...
Learning to play hundreds of bits of language, devices. patterns etc - in every position (and therefor every key, right?)- now that's some serious "grunt work" that few have the patience to do. That actually frees you from the set fingerings, because the fingering becomes secondary to the idea. Ever seen a great piano player transpose a difficult head in different keys trying to find a suitable key (usually for someone else's sake)? They can do it easily only because they have put in the hard yards of mastering all the ways to finger the notes they want in every key. And they do, they work stuff out in 12 keys, yup, it's a grind but the best cats do it.
On guitar, I do all my essential (to me anyway) material in 5 positions. Not just scales and arps, but lines, devices, vocab etc... That's less work than piano players do, and that gives you 5 ways to play in every key. Sure, it's still 5 times harder than learning to play in just one position, but it's 5 x more powerful and 5 x more rewarding. It takes longer and is frustrating because you feel as though you miss out on making music along the way, but Wayne Shorter would always say that he always practiced something he couldn't play, never what he could. (OK OK, he was gigging at the same time and I'm not, but you get my point...).
Don't Sitar players have to study for 16 years before they can perform in public?
Don't fill their heads with this awful stuff about all hard work that actually frees you up from technical limitations and allows you to play music, all that is complete nonsense.
No serious grunt work is actually required if you, you know, "have something to say ".
Ive also heard that the FDA has just approved a pill that can increwase one's daily metabolic level of 'soulfulness". Just add water, and don't be afraid of the numerous side effects, especially if the errecrion lasts longer than 4 hours.
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I didn't know that about sitar players. I believe it though. Check out the story of Annapurna Devi. She was Ravi Shankar's first wife and played something like a baritone sitar called the surbahar. She might laugh if she heard some of what guitar (non jazz anyway) players consider trials. It's quite a story. She and Ravi were a duo and she was upstaging him. They broke up and she went into seclusion for more than a few decades. Literally, never leaving home but for a few times now and then. She's still alive and maintained an active teaching schedule and disciplined practice routine maybe up until now. She's 88. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Learning to play scales in different positions is not the hard work! That, I would have thought, is just the beginning...
Learning to play hundreds of bits of language, devices. patterns etc - in every position (and therefor every key, right?)- now that's some serious "grunt work" that few have the patience to do. That actually frees you from the set fingerings, because the fingering becomes secondary to the idea. Ever seen a great piano player transpose a difficult head in different keys trying to find a suitable key (usually for someone else's sake)? They can do it easily only because they have put in the hard yards of mastering all the ways to finger the notes they want in every key. And they do, they work stuff out in 12 keys, yup, it's a grind but the best cats do it.
On guitar, I do all my essential (to me anyway) material in 5 positions. Not just scales and arps, but lines, devices, vocab etc... That's less work than piano players do, and that gives you 5 ways to play in every. Sure, it's still 5 times harder than learning to play in just one position, but it's 5 x more powerful and 5 x more rewarding. It takes longer and is frustrating because you feel as though you miss out on making music along the way, but Wayne Shorter would always say that he always practiced something he couldn't play, never what he could. (OK OK, he was gigging at the same time and I'm not, but you get my point...).
Don't Sitar players have to study for 16 years before they can perform in public?
At some point maybe the 70s she agreed to do a private concert at her residence for Yehudi Menuhin and a guest of his choice who was George Harrison. Yehudi couldn't make it so Harrison was the lucky one. There's seems to be at least one cut of her on YT but the quality's bad.
My ex-husband Ravi Shankar: Legendary musician; petty, manipulative husband - Firstpost
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Wow 88 years old, and has hardly ever performed live! Respect! Originally Posted by mrcee
A lot of advice on this forum is understandably given with the idea that the learner wishes to get "on the scene", and start gigging and partaking in Jams. Hence the ol' "just learn and play tunes!" chestnut.... But even though Jazz guitar is no where near as old a discipline as Vedic music, I'm certain it's equally difficult and possibly even more sophisticated at it's highest level... There's no shame in admitting you don't feel ready to perform despite years of study. Just as there's no shame in deciding you don't wish to perform, even though you well may be able.
It's tortoise vs hare, some players peak early, some much later and I don't care how "lofty" it may sound to some, but I say the path to mastery is it's own reward.
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ok sorry I kinda like the way it looks like poetry , but ok point taken ... should i just type like this ie without line breaks and just let the receiving gadget do the layout ? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Ok. I know this looks different on your computer, but dude. You're killing it with the return key across other devices.
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Sorry. Don't mean to tell anyone what they "should" do. I do like to let whatever platform you're using format for itself though. Doesn't really matter what you're typing (or talking) on. I've gotten to where I mostly post on my phone "between" life stuff. Originally Posted by pingu
The worst think on the eyes is never hitting the return key. At least it's not that.
I'm turning into a cantankerous old coot, I guess. Sorry for being a schmuck...
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This is a cool thread very interesting and "nice" to see others are/were struggling with this too.
I had some gigs and while I was thinking I'm not in the right level to do a performance. These were mostly rock performances with some friends in bars with max 100 people.
And I really sucked at playing I made a lot of mistakes the main reason for this was that i was very nervous so much that my hands were shaking. Well if it is like that for sure one woul dmake mistakes, how can you perform good if you dont have good control on your hands. I blame that to something mental.
I was thinking all the time:
What if they hear me making a mistake
So I was so stressed on making mistakes that i really made them and I got more stressed, its like a avalanche. This is a pitty because doing a gig should be fun and I didnt had fun because I was to stressed. And if your head is not clean how can you perform good? I trully beleive a good performance has to do also with your mental state, amd confidence in yourself. The last I think you get only with experience.
Now (not because of previous things i mentioned) I started to take Jazz lessons. I always listened to jazz too and wanted to play music like that. So I dont play live anymore because I cant find people who would like to play jazz. But I got a great teacher who gave me a simple exercise which helps overcome this stress a bit (eventhough its not playing in front of people).
He told me record your repertoire and do it like you have only one take per day. Take a song press the red button and record it, you have only one change per day. I think this is a great way to overcome some stress.
Nevertheless im not thinking I am at performance level to play a jazz gig. My repertoire is not sufficient yet (but its growing).
Well this was my thouhts on this matter
All the best
Grtz
Ray
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I've been aspiring to be a jazz guitarist since 1989, I came from a piano (low level, lessons for years rarely practiced) and French Horn decent enough for High School. So when I started with guitar note recognition on the staff was already accomplished. The grunt work that helped and helps me the most with learning where ALL the notes are is the George Van Epps Method Book. The grunt work for actually playing ok solos and comping was transcribing from the players I dig. Learning enough tunes to gig was accomplished by memorising 30 or so tunes in the beginning. Memorising them was made easier by learning the lyrics when applicable and listening to the earliest version I could find of the tune. I have always been fortunate that people call me to be on their gig and opportunities have always presented themselves to me. I played in a lot of Rock bands while getting my jazz guitar act together. It took me about 6 years from my first attempt to where I could comfortably play a quiet background quartet gig, without the book. I think for me, I've been lucky, my Dad always had jazz on in the car and house so I always was aware of it and what it sounds like.I had very clear goals from the beginning, because the guitar captivated my attention beyond reason from the very start. All that being said it has only been the last couple of years where my performance anxiety has diminished to the point where it is all just pure pleasure all of the time. What for me makes this possible is that I can finally hear my way through changes and respond with musicality and confidence to "mistakes". My cousin says my jazz playing finally sounds like real jazz and that I've lost my rock accent. To me that's pretty funny.
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The central challenge of jazz is keeping that beat while making up a non-repeating improvised rhythm. Originally Posted by pingu
Everything else is to some extent negotiable.
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The Joe Pass quote about learning something like fifty or one hundred tunes first has been mentioned on this forum several times . The jazz is in those melodies , the early players developed the music by embellishing those lines. On the other extreme , it has been mentioned here to learn one tune inside out , figure out how to do everything you can with that one tune , and those moves will be there for you when you go onto your next tune.
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Fifteen years ago I had a duo gig with a fine trumpet player, Ron Davidson who died last Friday. It was a restaurant gig; we played quietly. Ron used a Harmon mute directly into a microphone. His book was the size of the New York City telephone directory; standards I'd never heard of. When he was done with the head and a chorus or two I was on my own and I learned very quickly 'I can't jerk around here, I have to play pretty'; people are eating, people are listening. I'm not sure if this anecdote has any value to anyone but that experience, two nights a week, a duo for about five years made me a player. Perhaps the struggle takes care of itself in due time.
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